Re: A bundle of weak arguments - mls-stl

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Topic - Imagination. - May Belt 09:26:31 05/28/06 (257)

It's already been explained to you - Analog Scott 09:46:13 05/28/06 (57)

I think that you need to consider also the effects of your beliefs - Norm 12:09:49 05/28/06 (55)

The same color stripe demands the same brush. nt - clarkjohnsen 13:01:08 05/28/06 (2)

A great philosophy if you are interested in stereotyping people instead of dealing with them. nt - Analog Scott 16:08:34 05/28/06 (1)

Bingo. nt - Rick W 17:43:59 05/31/06 (0)

Re: I think that you need to consider also the effects of your beliefs - Analog Scott 16:02:21 05/28/06 (6)

I suspect that you assume that without a scientific explanation that you find plausible, you suspect fraud. Correct? - Norm 20:59:43 05/28/06 (5)

No. I suspect you are not reading my posts with any care. - Analog Scott 08:21:01 05/29/06 (4)

I can only conclude that you do not really understand what you say. - Norm 11:41:26 05/29/06 (3)

Clearly you don't understand what I am saying. - Analog Scott 13:13:13 05/29/06 (2)

As I said you want to be the judge and jury. Lots of luck. nt - Norm 15:07:37 05/29/06 (1)

oh, *you* said it, must be true despite what I say about my intentions. nt - Analog Scott 16:33:13 05/29/06 (0)

A bundle of weak arguments - Jim Austin 16:59:24 05/28/06 (44)

One very weak response - Norm 20:44:33 05/28/06 (31)

Re: One very weak response - Jim Austin 04:30:06 05/29/06 (15)

One very weak response redux - Charles Hansen 05:28:07 05/29/06 (3)

Re: One very weak response redux - Jim Austin 08:45:51 05/29/06 (2)

Re: One very weak response redux - Charles Hansen 12:11:01 05/29/06 (1)

Evidence? - hexenboden 15:18:42 05/31/06 (0)

Of course, I am speaking for myself, as are you. - Norm 05:55:39 05/29/06 (10)

Science? - John Atkinson 10:21:44 05/29/06 (9)

Yes, who needs to please everybody.... - cheap-Jack 08:34:26 06/01/06 (0)

You will seldom see scientist using such loaded words - Norm 11:47:43 05/29/06 (2)

I was taught to say "weighted words", but yes -- the ol' appeal to the emotions usually wins the masses. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:20:46 05/30/06 (1)

Maybe another regional difference nt - Norm 12:06:21 05/30/06 (0)

"Well argued"? - Charles Hansen 12:25:32 05/29/06 (1)

You still have that imaginary bridge huh? - bjh 12:40:13 05/29/06 (0)

More examples - Charles Hansen 15:01:21 05/29/06 (2)

Gravitons... - real_jj 13:21:34 05/31/06 (0)

When audio engineers go bad - Jim Austin 16:30:04 05/29/06 (0)

Are you against consumer protection against scams? - Analog Scott 08:42:09 05/29/06 (13)

On AA, definitely! From government I want it. nt - Norm 11:34:51 05/29/06 (11)

That makes no sense - Analog Scott 20:59:26 05/29/06 (10)

It is just the case that it may only be your opinion - Norm 06:37:11 05/30/06 (9)

Fraud isn't just a matter of opinion - Analog Scott 08:37:56 05/30/06 (8)

It would be interesting to learn how this product fared if it is a real example. - Norm 12:04:33 05/30/06 (7)

It is a real example - Analog Scott 15:19:18 05/30/06 (6)

Or at least trying to do so. - Norm 16:21:15 05/30/06 (5)

Well then we agree about fraud. - Analog Scott 19:40:43 05/30/06 (4)

I would not go that far, but there is some fraud, not as much as you think, however, and not defined as you do. nt - Norm 20:22:46 05/30/06 (3)

Please, stop with your assumptions about what i think. - Analog Scott 08:19:34 05/31/06 (2)

Re: "the only example I've run across" - geoffkait 09:24:34 05/31/06 (1)

That's ridiculous - Analog Scott 09:45:56 05/31/06 (0)

Let me amend that to exclude the W. Bush administration. nt - Norm 11:36:06 05/29/06 (0)

"You seem to think you are the scam police." No "seem" about it! - clarkjohnsen 09:23:44 05/30/06 (0)

A bundle of weak arguments redux - Charles Hansen 21:06:08 05/28/06 (1)

Re: A bundle of weak arguments redux - Jim Austin 04:10:39 05/29/06 (0)

Re: A bundle of weak arguments - mls-stl 07:17:01 05/29/06 (0)

Why ???? - hexenboden 08:43:37 05/29/06 (8)

Re: Why ???? - Jim Austin 08:52:58 05/29/06 (5)

Conversion - hexenboden 09:16:42 05/29/06 (4)

Skepticism about what science can tell us? - Norm 11:32:58 05/29/06 (1)

When did I suggest that ??? (nt) - hexenboden 19:56:26 05/29/06 (0)

Re: Conversion - Jim Austin 12:25:39 05/29/06 (1)

Indeed (nt) - hexenboden 19:55:38 05/29/06 (0)

Re: Why ???? - bjh 11:23:46 05/29/06 (1)

Babble, babble, LOL (nt) - hexenboden 19:36:05 05/29/06 (0)

Re: It's already been explained to you - mls-stl 07:06:57 05/29/06 (0)

Jeez, over & over, on & on. Are you related to George Louis? nt - Rick W 12:35:11 05/28/06 (0)

I think you are missing... - Jim Austin 16:49:46 05/28/06 (0)

Re: Imagination. - Charles Hansen 20:06:14 05/28/06 (100)

Mr. Hansen while there are things that to you "made no sense whatsoever" you should not be so presumptuous - bjh 09:11:41 05/29/06 (96)

When I was in graduate school... - Jim Austin 12:52:58 05/29/06 (95)

It is your belief that what you did with the Feynmann diagrams has anything to do with audio that infuriates others. - Norm 15:15:25 05/29/06 (69)

Norm, I think you're missing the point. - Rick W 16:00:30 05/29/06 (68)

Re: Norm, I think you're missing the point. - Jim Austin 16:07:01 05/29/06 (0)

You are right. I just am offended by chips for chumps - Norm 16:39:17 05/29/06 (66)

I did try the silly things and I can't think of a better title. - Dave Pogue 16:45:12 05/29/06 (0)

Your anger is misplaced. - bjh 18:13:30 05/29/06 (64)

Almost agree (surprise!) - Charles Hansen 19:01:13 05/29/06 (59)

Re: Almost agree (surprise!) - John Atkinson 19:26:00 05/29/06 (48)

Pls cancel my subscrtiption!!! - hexenboden 19:39:27 05/29/06 (0)

I largely agree with Charles, and I think you are trying to draw the line for him and others - Norm 20:23:51 05/29/06 (1)

"So was the X ray." And look at all the, ah, scientists who derided the concept. Just like anaesthesia. nt - clarkjohnsen 09:09:41 05/30/06 (0)

Try the SPECTRA Dynamics Foculpods ... - bjh 20:59:27 05/29/06 (0)

Wull, yahbut - Charles Hansen 04:45:52 05/30/06 (2)

Stop making sense! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:10:24 05/30/06 (1)

Am an attendant lord, one that will do (nt) - Jim Austin 10:11:53 05/30/06 (0)

A matter of trust? - Charles Hansen 07:38:39 05/30/06 (10)

"Steve Harris, Ken Kessler, John Curl, and Bobby Palkovic." Pish tish! Mere dabblers! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:13:22 05/30/06 (9)

Re: "Steve Harris, Ken Kessler, John Curl, and Bobby Palkovic." Pish tish! Mere dabblers! nt - Charles Hansen 09:22:43 05/30/06 (7)

Shows what I get for... - clarkjohnsen 09:36:35 05/30/06 (6)

Yeah, Harvard is famous for its music appreciation courses. GMAB. nt - Rick W 09:49:11 05/30/06 (4)

Actually . . . it is. nt - markrohr 08:37:45 05/31/06 (3)

Is, and was since the 1800s, sporting the country's oldest continuing performing orchestra. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:45:11 05/31/06 (0)

Plus -- that coarse and crass poster once again demonstrates his ignorance and presumption. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:48:04 05/31/06 (1)

I gotta eat crow. - Rick W 19:10:58 05/31/06 (0)

Shows that attempting to educate a block head is as futile as using a brick to absorb a spill? nt - bjh 10:09:38 05/30/06 (0)

No, I'm not Prince Hamlet! (nt) - Jim Austin 10:11:26 05/30/06 (0)

Words of wisdom from the past? - Charles Hansen 07:49:09 05/30/06 (29)

Are you confused Mr. Hansen? - bjh 09:04:05 05/30/06 (2)

Now we know why you and I rarely agree - Charles Hansen 09:21:30 05/30/06 (1)

Not terribly bright are you? ... a quality concomitant with the need to be always right. nt - bjh 10:24:38 05/30/06 (0)

Re: Words of wisdom from the past? - May Belt 10:20:50 05/30/06 (4)

Re: Words of wisdom from the past? - bjh 13:56:27 05/31/06 (2)

Re: Words of wisdom from the past? - May Belt 14:47:43 05/31/06 (1)

Thank you. Quite a qualification I must say! - bjh 19:45:55 05/31/06 (0)

"They think people should know"? But PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO KNOW! - clarkjohnsen 10:38:49 05/31/06 (0)

Re: Words of wisdom from the past? - John Atkinson 11:15:33 05/30/06 (20)

Wull, yahbut - Charles Hansen 12:04:36 05/30/06 (19)

Aaah... - John Atkinson 14:19:59 05/30/06 (18)

So I suppose that next Stereophile will start publishing Arny Krueger? - Charles Hansen 16:07:23 05/30/06 (3)

Re: So I suppose that next Stereophile will start publishing Arny Krueger? - John Atkinson 22:25:15 05/31/06 (0)

I think he'd have to learn to write first. nt - Analog Scott 16:25:04 05/30/06 (1)

Actually, there is a debate between AK and JA on the Stereophile site. - Pat D 07:16:31 06/01/06 (0)

As an editor I will agree with John - David W. Robinson 20:15:52 05/30/06 (6)

Exactly Right - John Atkinson 22:22:09 05/31/06 (1)

Please note... - Jim Austin 09:28:30 06/01/06 (0)

As always, the devil is in the details - Charles Hansen 21:02:27 05/30/06 (3)

Actually, the devil can be many places... - David W. Robinson 23:51:38 05/30/06 (2)

You would have a different view if you read the article in question. - Charles Hansen 05:44:44 05/31/06 (1)

One could further add that Austin *ceremoniously* trashed it. - clarkjohnsen 10:30:08 05/31/06 (0)

The central fact remains... - Jim Austin 04:46:08 05/31/06 (6)

Re: The central fact remains... - john curl 21:40:16 05/31/06 (1)

Here's the thread I was referring to over the 'phone. - clarkjohnsen 07:39:37 06/05/06 (0)

More bullshit appealing to emotions, without a shred of evidence. - Charles Hansen 05:49:22 05/31/06 (1)

Tune in next week when we'll witness our hero, ... - bjh 07:10:25 05/31/06 (0)

I must say ... - bjh 08:09:14 05/31/06 (0)

"...and Charles Hansen gets richer." Now *that* is genuinely crude... and too late to delete! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:34:52 05/31/06 (0)

Well, taking a page from the Hansen Method - How to Respond to a Conciliatory Entreaty ... - bjh 20:28:37 05/29/06 (6)

You forgot "dink"! (nt) - Jim Austin 03:04:44 05/30/06 (1)

Drink! - Charles Hansen 04:51:01 05/30/06 (0)

Even though I was pretty sure what the content of this post would be like... - andy_c 09:19:06 05/30/06 (3)

Re: Even though I was pretty sure what the content of this post would be like... - Charles Hansen 09:30:08 05/30/06 (2)

Okay, I will try to look up info... - andy_c 18:47:01 05/30/06 (1)

Re: Okay, I will try to look up info... - Charles Hansen 19:07:07 05/30/06 (0)

A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE -- "Tell us how it works or I won't try it." "What you tell us about how it works... - clarkjohnsen 09:16:59 05/30/06 (1)

Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse; (nt) - Jim Austin 10:15:59 05/30/06 (0)

An ordinary Joe Consumer's take on this - rbolaw 14:22:46 05/30/06 (0)

Re: Ah, proving once again - geoffkait 09:49:28 05/30/06 (2)

Let me guess ... your "comment" can only be explained with reference to Quantum Electro Dynamics? nt - bjh 09:55:17 05/30/06 (1)

Actually explained by regnad kcin. nt. - Lynn 18:56:07 05/31/06 (0)

Just trying to understand. - hexenboden 13:20:22 05/30/06 (0)

Re: Feynman - geoffkait 16:45:39 05/29/06 (17)

You're lucky he's dead - Jim Austin 19:06:30 05/29/06 (15)

Drink! - Charles Hansen 19:11:26 05/29/06 (1)

Re: Drink! - john curl 00:51:43 05/30/06 (0)

Re: More to the point - geoffkait 04:57:26 05/30/06 (12)

Actually - Jim Austin 05:35:15 05/30/06 (11)

Re: It's all right, I'm only bleeding - geoffkait 07:17:53 05/30/06 (10)

"Invest in," indeed - Jim Austin 07:27:45 05/30/06 (0)

By the way, did you write this... - Jim Austin 07:33:08 05/30/06 (7)

Reminiscent of Dylan drivel. - regmac 07:42:11 05/30/06 (5)

I got no problem with Dylan... - Jim Austin 07:50:28 05/30/06 (4)

Drink! - Charles Hansen 07:51:25 05/30/06 (0)

It's 11 a.m. - Jim Austin 07:54:06 05/30/06 (2)

Re: It's 11 a.m. - Charles Hansen 09:28:22 05/30/06 (1)

Re: Actually - geoffkait 09:33:12 05/30/06 (0)

Reminds me of a scene from a movie... - Jim Austin 07:59:26 05/30/06 (0)

fergit... - Wellfed 10:54:49 05/31/06 (0)

unfortunately you chose an irrelevant quote - tunenut 19:17:04 05/29/06 (0)

Please don't take him seriously... - hexenboden 19:33:48 05/29/06 (0)

Re: When I was in graduate school... - john curl 21:25:28 05/30/06 (5)

Allow me to elucidate ... - bjh 22:10:33 05/30/06 (0)

Re: When I was in graduate school... - john curl 23:24:42 05/30/06 (1)

the titlle of volume 4 is Quantum Electrodynamics - tunenut 09:10:33 05/31/06 (0)

Pathetic - Jim Austin 03:26:29 05/31/06 (1)

Re: Pathetic - john curl 09:13:56 05/31/06 (0)

Tried Snickers yet? - Rick W 11:21:30 05/29/06 (0)

You and I seem to share the privilege of being sniped at by the two 'holes below. 'Grats! - clarkjohnsen 09:00:39 05/30/06 (1)

LOL. "When a man behaves rudely it's a sure sign he knows deep down inside that he's lost. - Rick W 10:20:10 05/30/06 (0)

No, it's the other way around - hexenboden 08:38:21 05/29/06 (23)

The question that you cause me to consider is why some are not affected by the placebo effect? - Norm 11:26:07 05/29/06 (20)

"presumably even were the listening done in a double blind circumstance" - bjh 11:41:08 05/29/06 (1)

LOL, here you have surpassed even yourself !? (nt) - hexenboden 18:28:48 05/29/06 (0)

very bad definitions iMO - tunenut 12:36:44 05/29/06 (1)

Your examples are not where the argument lies - Norm 14:49:28 05/29/06 (0)

Re: The question that you cause me to consider is why some are not affected by the placebo effect? - Analog Scott 13:01:27 05/29/06 (3)

Wrong root - hexenboden 18:27:17 05/29/06 (2)

Re: Wrong root - Analog Scott 18:45:19 05/29/06 (1)

Audio Science - hexenboden 19:26:41 05/29/06 (0)

The fly in my argument - hexenboden 18:22:40 05/29/06 (10)

I don't think I state my question clearly enough - Norm 19:58:38 05/29/06 (9)

Science, cables and the body of knowledge - hexenboden 00:04:20 05/30/06 (8)

"My advice is to listen to the music and not [let] hobbyists make its careful progress..." - clarkjohnsen 08:57:42 05/30/06 (7)

Why do you rephrase my posts? - hexenboden 13:15:38 05/30/06 (6)

It's just his thing, it's what he does. (nt) - Jim Austin 16:31:31 05/30/06 (2)

And your thing is to rephrase journal articles, changing their results to support your worldview. [nt] - Charles Hansen 19:27:05 05/30/06 (1)

It's what he does -- and gets paid for! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:33:00 05/31/06 (0)

To fit on one line, and to make some sense out of them. Now about that word you claim I "added"... - clarkjohnsen 09:31:49 05/31/06 (2)

Your definition of "research" and other matters - hexenboden 12:43:09 05/31/06 (1)

Clark often ignores basic logic. - Pat D 18:56:16 05/31/06 (0)

"I have never seen any science evaluating this [placebo] question." Nor shall you. - clarkjohnsen 08:44:47 05/30/06 (0)

Re: No, it's the other way around - Soundmind 16:01:05 05/30/06 (1)

Virginia Slims - hexenboden 23:02:23 05/30/06 (0)

the key phrase - tunenut 09:30:43 05/29/06 (1)

Maybe she uses morphic messages! - KlausR. 02:08:02 05/30/06 (0)

You want to know if a tweak works ? - Lambda 14:02:18 05/29/06 (0)

Denial - Feanor 17:21:49 05/29/06 (0)

The sad fact about audio is how often audiophiles imagine hearing differences - Richard BassNut Greene 10:37:16 05/30/06 (41)

Thanks! I was needing my DBT Semon fix something awful ... another day and I'd have been deep into the DBT DTs. nt - bjh 11:06:32 05/30/06 (4)

I wouldn't touch that post with a ten-foot pole , although ... - Richard BassNut Greene 08:12:05 06/01/06 (0)

He meant "sermon" of course! Whew! - Bruce Kendall 12:52:42 05/30/06 (1)

I don't know.... - rditmars 13:55:23 05/30/06 (0)

What? (nt) - hexenboden 14:42:40 05/30/06 (0)

The sad fact about audio is how often audiophiles imagine they hear no differences - Norm 11:56:03 05/30/06 (2)

It could also be drugs...wink (nt) - hexenboden 14:47:27 05/30/06 (0)

Differences are imagined, small SPL differences, small channel balance differences, or real differences - Richard BassNut Greene 08:57:06 05/31/06 (0)

Re: The sad fact about audio is how often audiophiles imagine hearing differences - Awe-d-o-file 14:20:28 05/30/06 (9)

I am so tired of the following fallacious argument... - hexenboden 14:46:10 05/30/06 (7)

Re: I am so tired of the following fallacious argument... - Awe-d-o-file 16:47:23 05/30/06 (6)

Re: I am so tired of the following fallacious argument... - hexenboden 18:21:41 05/30/06 (5)

Re: I am so tired of the following fallacious argument... - Awe-d-o-file 18:40:00 05/30/06 (4)

Hard time understanding - hexenboden 22:44:13 05/30/06 (1)

Re: Hard time understanding - Awe-d-o-file 14:44:47 06/01/06 (0)

"Take something that really matters like politics or the AIDS crisis." Now *that's* funny! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:03:31 05/31/06 (1)

Re: "Take something that really matters like politics or the AIDS crisis." Now *that's* funny! nt -how so ? - Awe-d-o-file 14:49:34 06/01/06 (0)

"If you can't hear the difference you have no business telling people what they should or should not think." YES! nt - clarkjohnsen 09:05:14 05/31/06 (0)

You aren't imagining hearing a difference when... - Soundmind 14:29:46 05/30/06 (3)

Welcome back - hexenboden 14:50:03 05/30/06 (0)

From what seats in Symphony Hall - unclestu52 20:56:07 05/30/06 (1)

Any seat...in any hall - Soundmind 03:12:16 05/31/06 (0)

Re: The sad fact about audio is how often audiophiles imagine hearing differences - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 16:14:58 05/30/06 (10)

Here's a suggestion - Soundmind 17:38:24 05/30/06 (2)

Solid idea - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 19:10:07 05/30/06 (1)

Small differences in FR in real world conditions, not bench tests, can make significant audible differences - Soundmind 04:09:07 05/31/06 (0)

Fantasia - hexenboden 18:27:10 05/30/06 (6)

Or reality.......... - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 19:05:15 05/30/06 (5)

Not necessarily clipping - hexenboden 22:27:34 05/30/06 (4)

It's amazing to watch you jump to conclusions....... - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 05:36:20 05/31/06 (3)

You are confusing a lot of things about amplifiers - hexenboden 08:31:01 05/31/06 (2)

Re: You are confusing a lot of things about amplifiers - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 10:40:26 05/31/06 (1)

You are confusing a lot of things about amplifiers - hexenboden 12:03:36 05/31/06 (0)

Or the sadness of living life with the mantra that only scientifically proven differences can be experienced-NT - lancelot 19:21:13 05/30/06 (2)

Happiness is learning how well you hear & targeting audio spending where it makes an audible difference to you - Richard BassNut Greene 08:22:06 05/31/06 (1)

Rational approach BUT - lancelot 10:28:46 05/31/06 (0)

irnoically it's the militant objectivists that live in denial. - Analog Scott 08:15:12 05/31/06 (3)

Objective audiophiles ONLY listen to the music because nothing else is needed to enjoy music or compare components - Richard BassNut Greene 08:37:25 05/31/06 (2)

Dude catch a clue. Blind doesn't mean literally blind. It means you don't know what's playing. nt. - Analog Scott 09:41:19 05/31/06 (1)

Better to be silent and be thought a fool ... then to post here and remove all doubt ... - Richard BassNut Greene 08:30:45 06/01/06 (0)

Re: The sad fact about audio is how often audiophiles imagine hearing differences - thetubeguy1954 09:08:11 05/31/06 (0)

Re: Imagination is the audio salesman's principle tool whether it's yourself or a showroom vulture. * - mr grits 15:49:26 05/30/06 (4)

Maybe where you shop....... - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 16:21:36 05/30/06 (3)

What do you do to prevent imagination from being a factor - Analog Scott 17:05:30 05/30/06 (2)

I use experience - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 18:39:49 05/30/06 (1)

I hope Julian Hisch isn't really a role model - Analog Scott 08:12:45 05/31/06 (0)

You hear what you hear - Frihed89 01:04:57 05/31/06 (19)

How do you know what you hear? - Soundmind 03:56:40 05/31/06 (18)

The usual cracks about the irrationality of the disbelievers. Nothing new here. - Norm 06:00:09 05/31/06 (14)

"Nothing new here." Science is still science...ad hype is still ad hype...religion is still "faith" nt - Soundmind 06:31:52 05/31/06 (12)

Science? Where's the science in all this? - Analog Scott 08:10:00 05/31/06 (0)

The only faith that scientists subscribe to is the scientific method. - Norm 08:30:54 05/31/06 (10)

Most scientists can enjoy a ine meal without scientifically valid proof - Analog Scott 08:35:13 05/31/06 (7)

Re: You must not have heard of - geoffkait 08:54:45 05/31/06 (6)

Re: You must not have heard of - Analog Scott 09:37:12 05/31/06 (5)

Re: Agree, but - geoffkait 10:00:16 05/31/06 (1)

you mean comparing component s and tweaks is not about the enjoyment of music? - Analog Scott 10:07:02 05/31/06 (0)

Agreed, life is too short. [nt] - Wellfed 10:41:15 05/31/06 (0)

What? I entirely agree with you!! - Norm 12:37:11 05/31/06 (1)

My opinions have not changed. nt - Analog Scott 18:58:18 05/31/06 (0)

surely you know you've gone overboard - tunenut 09:23:19 05/31/06 (1)

Perhaps I should have said the scientific method requires one faith, in it. I hardly believe I have gone overboard. - Norm 12:29:14 05/31/06 (0)

Norm, do you wear glasses? - Rick W 10:42:02 05/31/06 (0)

Is DBTing how you compare gear for your system? - Kloss 06:53:10 05/31/06 (0)

You may like testing equipment. I like sitting down and listening to music with it. - Analog Scott 08:07:44 05/31/06 (0)

Re: How do you know what you hear? - thetubeguy1954 08:50:35 05/31/06 (0)

Follow Ups

Re: A bundle of weak arguments - mls-stl 07:17:01 05/29/06 (0)