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RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more

Posted by Davy (A) on September 16, 2010 at 16:39:13

In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 16, 2010 at 13:15:43:

Ortofon?, Now you asked for it!, - this is going to be long!

There are a LOT of different models!, - so I am not surprised you are confused!.

They line up was reasonably stable from about 1995 to 2005.
It consisted,
Noryl bodied: -

MC10 super II, MC15 Super II,

Al bodied: -

MC10 Supreme, MC20 Supreme MC30 Supreme (same heavy aluminium body, same generators, just different styluses),
Rohmann (introduced around 1996).
Jubilee (Introduced in 1999).


This was for the UK, - in the USA and elsewhere the MC10, MC20, and MC30 Supreme models were not available and instead the, MC20 and MC30 Super II models were available.
Differences between MC20/30 supremes and supers were that the Supremes had heavier Al bodies (11.7g) and higher output (0.5mV), whereas the super IIs had lower output (0.2mV) and a lighter 9g Al body. Also the MC20 and MC30 Super IIs seem to have higher spec styluses than the MC20 and MC30 Supreme. WHY on earth some were available in certain countries and some elsewhere I am not sure.
Its confusing too as the budget MC10 super II and pricier MC10 Supreme are two different cartridges that share the same elliptical stylus, but one has a plastic body and the other a heavy. aluminium body.

As for stylus types: -
Plastic bodies carts: -

MC10 Super II had elliptical stylus
MC15 Super II had the basic Fine line stylus

Al bodies carts

MC25E had an elliptical stylus
MC25FL had the basic fine line stylus
MC10 Supreme had an elliptical stylus
MC20 Supreme had the basic fine line stylus
MC30 Supreme had a super fine line stylus
MC20 Super II had a FRG80 stylus
MC30 Super II had a Nude Replicant stylus
Kontrpunkts had super fine line (A), FRG80 (B and C).
Rohmann had an Ortho line sylus
Jubilee had a Shibata Stylus


The Kontrpunkts were introduced in around 2001, - then discontinued quite recently. The Supremes ran alongside the Punkts for quite a while, but the Kontrpunkts were slightly higher spec than the Supremes.

It seems the MC2000, MC3000, MC500 MC7500 were pre 1995 or so they are older, - they were the top models. The Rohmann effectively replaced them as the main top model. Looking a the output level of the MC2000II its not a viable option, - its like a Audionote IO, - 0.05mV output!. The MC3000 is 0.1mV output so pretty low too. MC 7500 is better at 0.2mV.

The Rohmann was introduced in 1996 and was named after Ortofon's former MD who past away around that time. It was based around the top previous MC7500 model,, but it was priced cheaper. Output was a reasonable sensible 0.25mV so more practical than the previous top models. Then in 1999 the Jubilee was introduced and was run alongside the Rohmann for many years. The Jubilee was the higher spec model though, better stylus/tracking and higher output at 0.35mV. It cost $1850, £1200 in the UK. It was also the blueprint for the Kontrpunkt models, - indeed the body looks the same as the Kontropuntks. Rohmann was about £1000 new in the UK, - I guess about $1400-1500 in the US.

Anyway the top Rohmann and Jubilee were available right up to about 2008 so they ran for many many years. The Windfeld replaced them as the top model. Now there is also a new top “A90” model as well.

In around 2005 the MC10, 20, 30 Supreme series was discontinued and the Rondos (Red. Blue, Bronze) were introduced, - effectively replacing them. Similar specs. The Kontrapunkts continued to run at the same time as the Rondos. The Rondos are still current.

At the lower MC end the Noryl bodied MC10 and MC15 super IIs were replaced by the Samba and Salsa in 2005 but these were double the price! Like I say I couldn’t see any spec differences! The Samba and Salsa have recently been discontinued and replaced with the Vivo red and blue models!

Recently the Cadenzas have replaced the Kontrapuntks!

So as you can see its very complicated, - they don’t seem to phase out all products and replace them at the same time, - some are kept and other ranges replaced! Very confusing indeed.

I have often seen the Rohmann and Jubilee for sale used here, - for around £300-400 quite oftehn which is a good deal. I will keep an eye out for one. Either would be a good model to try as they were the top spec ones. I suppose it could always be retipped by Expert stylus in the future.

I think a MC20 or MC30 supreme would be a good cartridge to try too, - sometimes they go very cheap. And the Chepaer MC25FL would be a good model to try too, - ran for many years and a lot were sold. All of these three and others have recently been available brand new at Speakerbits on Ebay for very good prices.

MC 25 FL
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220649416825

MC30 Supreme
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220644603943

MC20 Supreme
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220649008586

Kontrapunkt C
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250689258620

Rohmann
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220640297754

MC15 Super II
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220661500445


I think these are very good deals as like I say they are new, recently manufactured by Ortofon from spare parts they had..
Here is where I found it out, - when I was looking up on google about the MC15 Super II I recently bought. The OP in this thread rang up Ortofon and they confirmed they have been re manufacturing these older MCs from unused spare parts.

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=228706

These newly manufactured “old” MC carts are much cheaper than the current range, - I mean the MC30 Supreme is selling at speakerbits for £250 or so but a new Rondo Bronze is £650. And I THINK its virtually the same cartridge. If I was to get one my eye would be on a MC25FL, either MC20 or MC30 Supreme, and the Rohmann. Any of them are a great deal. The cheaper MC15 super II is excellent sounding too like I say (and has the same stylus as the MC25FL and MC20 Supreme) but the plastic body/static issue would prefer me buying one of the higher spec aluminium body models in the future, - starting with the MC25FL as being the cheapest one. The MC25FL and MC20/30 Supreme have higher output too at 0.5mV.
I would avoid the ones with Elliptcal syluses personally, - the MC10 Super II and MC25E. Only going for fine line or better.

If you look at speakerbits feedback you can see how many they’ve sold recently
http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=speakerbits&&iid=220649008586&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller
I asked them for a heads up on when the next ones will be up for auction and they said not this Monday but the Monday after.


So yeah loads of Ortofon models, - same goes for the Ortofon SPU models, - the old and the current ones. I have no idea about them but they are supposed to be very good as well.

Which MC20 did you have as there are at LEAST 4 different versions?! Was it an aluminium body type like either of these three
MC20 Super II http://drspark.dreamwiz.com/c_spark/d11/ortofon-mc20-super2.jpg
MC20 Super II black model http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/30/a0/ef9b_35.JPG
MC20 Supreme http://www.asm-audio.de/WebRoot/Store3/Shops/61684291/4BF3/651E/35DF/4AC9/A5F9/C0A8/29BB/78A9/Ort_MC_MC20_supreme_89mm_300_m.jpg

Or a plastic blue body type MC20 like this?
http://www.vinylengine.com/images/cartridgedb/ortofon_mc20.jpg
This one is very old now! Must be pre 1990.

So anyway I do not know about all the models myself no doubt but I have a reasonbly good idea having kept a reasonable interested in Ortofon carts over the years, so I hope this gives you a reasonable outline. Let me know if you need any more info. . Looking at your situation I think a newly manufactured model like the MC25FL or MC20/30 Supreme from Speakerbits would be a great choice as a very good MC to have for cheap. Decent output 0.5mV (so you could run into the Melos straight) and very cheap price for the quality you are getting. I wonder if these carts are selling elsewhere at all or only at Speakerbits?

In the meantime, - if you can put up with the static issue, I’ll send you the MC15 Super II to try with the other carts. For the money it’s a real peach. Slightly different from the ones I just mentioned above as it much have a different generator as the output is slightly lower, and noryl body of course. Though like I say the Fine line stylus is the same as the one on the MC25FL and MC20 Supreme. The MC30 Supreme has a slightly finer fine line stylus and a slightly more extended top end (though we are talking from extension from 30Khz to 40Khz here)!. The Jubilee extends to 60Khz with that Shibata stylus has a very good tracking figure. Kontrpunkts and others with the Fritz gyper styluses are somewhere in between these figures.

Anyway the Garrot does look very nice from the links you sent me, - thanks for that. So did you buy this FGS version new?! (quite pricey) or was it lightly used?
I can see how a top spec MM would have several advantages over MC, - better tracking, very low surface noise etc and better dynamics too. The crunch would be the top end I guess, - the MCs most probably having an advantage in linearity and extension up there. So there is a balance of extension, dynamics, traking, surface noise and other factors going on here.
See how you get on with three MCs which are significantly cheaper than the Garrot. I will be very interested to hear which of these 3 MC you prefer and if still prefer the Garrot over them. I guess the Garrot will be more dynamic, have better tracking etc so it will be interesting to see if the different strengths of the MCs appeal to you or not. I would say for sure these MCs do sound more dynamic on the Technics DD turntable than on the belt drive LP12 (and I guess the belt drives you’ve had too I guess). So the Technics will help the MCs on the dynamics front I am sure. I know the Garrot is very detailed but I am sure you will find the Denon DL304 (in particular) highly detailed too and possibly more so, - and likely more extended and transparent but not as dynamic and a bit more prone to surface noise. So I’ll be interested see how you get on.

Thanks a lot for the wet record tip, - sounds good!, will try it - and thanks for the info on the drain. So when you say try adhesive tape, - do you mean with the drain wire or is this something separate?!!

I have yet to try the damping foil!, - will do at the weekend, - so how many foil layers do you use? One, or more? And what sort of tape do you use to hold it on? I have not got the silver cables yet, - will install them later when they arrive.

All the best,
Colin

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