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RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more

Posted by Davy (A) on September 8, 2010 at 05:04:26

In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 8, 2010 at 01:31:01:

60dB is a lot of gain for a valve phono stage!, - that’s impressive, - if the Melos is able to manage it without much hiss then that’s a real achievement. I can see a 0.5mV cartridge might be fine. And the S/N ratio rating is good too. A 0.2mV cartridge could possibly be too noisy but you'll have to try it and see how it goes.

The thing I have found with different phono stages is that the dB rating does not always correspond with more S/N. That Audio Innovations P2 I had was 45dB which is considered medium to high gain compared to other MM stages, - but the design of the circuit was far noisier than anything else I had ever used!, - a 1:10 step up (taking the gain up to 65dB) was not really enough to cut through the noise, - 1:20 or more was more like it. The P2 did sound good though despite the hiss, - the circuit is changeable to get less hiss but then the magic might be lost. The T2 transformer were in fact designed for the T2, - they even plug directly into it. Perhaps the T2s were made with high ratios partly as the P2 stage has such a hissy circuit?!

But yeah if the Melos is able to provide that gain without a lot of noise, - that’s a real achievement.
I did once try a valve MC Headamp, - an Audion model. The sound was extremely good but it was far too noisy. So I am a little sceptical about the extra gain needed for an MC coming from valves alone. I was told by the Auido Innovations repair guy that a step up with a MM stage is the only quiet way to do it and there really isn’t any other way. But perhaps he had not heard of the Melos?! Perhaps Melos found a way to do it quietly that was pretty expensive to execute and that’s why it's not more common?

Ah you had the original OC9, - well I had the ML2 version (not the current ML3), - with microline stylus. It did have very good tracking with very low noise from that stylus. The Denon DL304 for example is a bit more prone to clicks and pops than the OC9 was but the OC9 just sounded so unmusical in comparison and not extended and refined like the 304. I agree the OC9 is extended but unrefined/rough sounding,- boom and tizz exactly. I just don't understand why anyone would want a sound like that?!!, but obviously there are fans it!

So does your Audible Illusions phono section have adjustable loading too like the Melos does?, - having adjustable loading like that is really useful and very convenient, - its far easier than messing around with resistors when you are instead using a step up with only one fixed step up ratio and an MM stage with fixed 47K loading.
Denon actually recommended loading the DL-304, DL-103 and DL-S1 cartridges at the same value as its internal impedance when using a passive step up, - 40 ohms. I have been told before this is a very odd thing to do. I tried it - it worked OK with the Sowter, but with the T2 for example there is too much treble loss. Not tired it with the head. What Denon recommend is actually in contradiction to the expensive AU-S1 step up they make which has a 1:13 step up ratio (like the middle tap of the head), and a natural loading of 280 ohms, - it even says that in the AU-S1 specs so there it obviously does not have resistors inside taking the loading down to 40 ohms!
Denon recommends loading these MCs at 100 ohms for use with an active MC stage. A friend however had a 304 and preferred it a 470 ohms into an active stage so you can experiment, - certainly try out all those nice setting on your Melos.

I am unsure how the AU-S1 step up sounds I am sure its very good. Nearly bought one before when they were half the price they are now! And the other one I am very curious about is of course the Audio Note copy, - the S&B TX103, - that has switchable 1:10 and 1:20 step up ratios. My guess is that "the head" is comparable, and it usefully has all three of these stepup ratios the other two have all in one unit. Like I say I might get the S&B from a local shop to compare "the head" to and see how much difference there is. The head is a much older design of course, - its possible the S&B does sound better and it has a good reputation. My hunch is though "the head" will stand up well.

By the way "the head" has very little in the way of hum noise, - its much better in that regard than the T2 and I know why as I had a quick look inside, - its got some sort of wool shielding inside, - in fact the T2 has none!

These three input of "the head" are much less critical for you than for me as you have a much easier way of adjusting the loading later on in the MM stage, - with the Melos for example you have easy access to loading of 470ohms, 230 ohms 100 ohms and 51 ohms (and lower but I doubt there would be much point in trying lower) when using the 1:10 step up ratio and selecting 47K, 23K, and 510 ohms on the melos. And of course there are other options directly available to you too when using the other ratios of the step up (I've not calculated them though, - 1:10 is easy!!). And of course when using the Melos alone you have all these vast loading options available.

You will find with the Denon (for example) as you go lower in loading, starting from about 500 ohms the volume level will slowly decrease as you get closer to the internal impedance. At 100 ohms is should be a bit quieter than higher up, under 100 ohms and the level will drop quite a bit.

And of course you have the Dayton with all its loading options AS WELL!, - I am jealous thinking about all these loading options you have!
And I see then with a 1:10 step up your Melos with have 80dB gain, - thats very nice, - plenty of gain and perfect for these 0.2 mV carts. You will just have to play with the loading. You might be able to try the 1:13 ratio as well with the Melos but 1:20 will most likely be too high. So the 1:20 of the head and the 1:22.5 of the T2 will only really be testable with your Audible illusions.

I listened to the DL304 again on my Pre-Cirkus LP12/Ittok last night - it really does sound very nice. Just as good as my other 304. I did occasionally hear some mistracking which I guess might be due to the stylus hours (either that or my adjustments, - or perhaps my VTA and alignment adjustments were out?!), - but like I say I hope its OK in the wear regard and at the very least will give you a good idea of how the 304 sounds. I have not tried cleaning the Stylus, - I have some of that Clearaudio Elixir stuff, - it work great when you first put it on but you find yourself having to do it every 5 minutes as the treble rolls off very fast, - I think when you apply it, it cleans the stylus but then it also makes it pick up rubbish much quicker! Even if you let it dry for a minute or so it does not seem to make a huge difference and still the dirt pick up fast, so I have avoided using it so far. I guess a vacuum record cleaning maching would really help with this, - I have wanted to get one for years but they are just so eexpenisve. Wish I had got one when they were cheaper. I think the Elixir cleaner might dissolve release agent, which is possibly why if you play an un vacummed record after using Exixir it sounda off very fast!

Anyway, - Of course you can easily play with the VTA and VTF. The recommended VTF for the 304 is between 1 and 1.4 grams!, - I find somewhere between 1.2 and 1.25 is optimum. Usually nearer to 1.2. So its quite unusual for an MC to have such low tracking force requirements, - must be due to the highish compliance of the 304. I mean it can actually even track OK as at little as 1g! Compare this to the 2.5g tracking weight for the DL103! The Troika is medium compliance and the right VTF is around 1.5-1.65 g, - maybe 1.7 max. I usually use around 1.55 to 1.6g. Not sure if you use a test record with tracking test but if you do, just to warn you the Troika is well known to perform very badly with those tests!, - but it tracks fine on real music. The Dl304 does much better on tracking tests. But the best MC cartridge I found so far for sailing through these tracking tests was the DL110!, - it really tracks these tests like anything. It also tracks much better than the DL160 and DL103 as well. But I guess its still not up to decent MM tracking ability.
You will want to lower the VTA for both the Troika and the 304, - both cartridges are much shorter than the taller Garrot.


Not sure if you read my other thread concerning the Aro in reply to Andy, but one day I do intend to try out and Expert Stylus modified Denon DL103 fitted with their sapphire cantilever and Paratrace diamond. And see if it really does sound like the good parts of the 103 with better treble extension, - could be a very good cartridge if that’s the case. They sell them new for about £300 pre made! They told me that this craze for metal and wood bodies upgrades for the 103 are a silly upgrade as the main problem with this cartridge is the lack of treble extension and that’s due to the conical tip. They said the standard conical diamond is very good quality and very well polished but its just too big to give any decent treble extension unfortunately. So they advocate a stylus upgrade rather than a body upgrade. They leave the suspension alone when upgrading the cantilever/tip, - so it still low compliance, but they said with the Paratrace tip fitted the cartridge will then happily track well at about 2g (rather than the usual 2.5g!). anyway, - I do intend to try one of these, - it’s a real shame I don’t have the Aro anymore, - the 103 sounded very good with that. It sounds a bit too bloated and heavy sounding on the Ittok with a Pre-cirkus LP12. The Aro's lighter sounding nature complements the 103 very well in my opinion.

Anyway, - here just one of many person's view of the DL304, -

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300900

and this was on a Technics SL1200MK2 with the arm in stock form I guess so that’s a very good sign for us. One thing I really notice is that most people describe the 304 in the same way, - magic sounding with a superbly clear and refined treble. They are always the first words that come to mind.
Will be interested to see if you think the same.

Anyway I think the postie tried to deliver my other headshell yesterday (they left a card), but I won’t be able to pick up and fit the DL304 on the Technics until Sunday, - but I'll let you know then for sure if its the real deal or not. And will most likely send you the stuff early next week when I've packed it all up OK.

All the best,
Colin

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