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In Reply to: Answer My Specific Question. posted by thetubeguy1954 on May 15, 2006 at 06:52:19:
I have already answered the question and I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that you have little interest in the question you posed at the beginning of this thread.> I'll ask my question once again...
Without providing sufficient information about what was actually done nobody can explain your results without speculation/guessing. I am afraid that is the only answer you can ever get (apart from speculation or guessing of course). Repeating the question introduces no new information. Is there something about this answer you do not understand?
> If wires don't affect the sound,
Wires do affect sound (but in most circumstances less than is audibly perceptible by the human ear but predictable with known physical laws and often measureable by microphones).
> how did we both hear the exact same thing?
It is almost impossible you heard the exact same thing if you were in different positions in the room, with different ear/brains and different levels of tiredness, expectation, familiarity, etc... However, in order to explain your result I would need more information about what was actually going on in the room.
> I'm lost as to why you believe just because we saw the interconnect,
> the test was invalid.I have made no such claim. I have stated that doing so introduces factors that make it difficult to separate out the audibility in the results but this separation is possible albeit with considerable practical difficulties (and is nothing like the test your performed).
> Especially considering WE DID NOT EXPECT THE SOUND TO CHANGE!
This may be a factor but I see no reason to weight it particularly heavily.
> Now if you can, answer the specific question instead of ducking it
> like every other Objectivist does!If I was to ask you repeatedly why my neighbour and I can both hear a faint shushing noise what would be your answer? No, come on what would be your answer? Really, what is your answer?
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - thetubeguy1954 08:15:33 05/12/06 (200)
- I for one do believe that you are hearing differences but that's not the real point! - KlausR. 05:45:21 05/16/06 (2)
- Re: I for one do believe that you are hearing differences but that's not the real point! - Caymus 10:51:26 05/16/06 (1)
- Floyd Toole : Hearing is believing vs believing is hearing - KlausR. 23:58:01 05/16/06 (0)
- Isn't there a cable asylum for these posts? - real_jj 00:55:14 05/15/06 (35)
- It was originally posted in Cables... - Jon Risch 20:59:28 05/15/06 (32)
- Because, Jon, DBT's are not allowed in the cable asylum... - real_jj 00:38:07 05/16/06 (31)
- Re: Because, Jon, DBT's are not allowed in the cable asylum... - Jon Risch 10:38:47 05/16/06 (30)
- An amateur DBT is still more accurate than an amateur impressionable (sighted) test - Caymus 11:07:54 05/16/06 (29)
- Re: An amateur DBT is still more accurate than an amateur impressionable (sighted) test - thetubeguy1954 10:18:55 05/17/06 (4)
- So far not a single human has proven they can differentiate silver from copper wire by listening - Caymus 13:00:47 05/17/06 (3)
- Differentiating between copper and silver wire, that's an easy one! - KlausR. 10:36:12 05/18/06 (2)
- I can hear the difference between RED and BLACK insulation! - Caymus 11:16:19 05/18/06 (1)
- Oh yeah! I can hear red and black interconnects when they're IN THE ROOM! (nt) - Pat D 22:09:14 05/18/06 (0)
- And there's the whole problem - Jon Risch 21:03:59 05/16/06 (23)
- How is a "flawed DBT" worse than a sighted test? - real_jj 03:16:42 05/17/06 (2)
- Re: How is a "flawed DBT" worse than a sighted test? - Jon Risch 21:33:28 05/17/06 (1)
- Stuff and nonsense - real_jj 03:11:45 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: And there's the whole problem - KlausR. 00:07:51 05/17/06 (16)
- Re: And there's the whole problem - Jon Risch 15:51:02 05/17/06 (15)
- Straw men burning left and right! Call the pompiers! - real_jj 04:58:05 05/19/06 (0)
- Often I have volunteered to do the execution, if they provide the funding. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:47:18 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: And there's the whole problem - KlausR. 00:04:28 05/18/06 (12)
- Klaus, I believe you are incorrect. - jneutron 07:30:42 05/18/06 (11)
- Yes, it was a pre-print... - KlausR. 07:56:52 05/18/06 (10)
- Absolutely. - jneutron 08:35:00 05/18/06 (9)
- Breaking radio silence to inquire .... - bjh 09:54:34 05/18/06 (8)
- AES CONVENTION preprints - real_jj 05:06:06 05/19/06 (0)
- Re: Breaking radio silence to inquire .... - jneutron 10:35:40 05/18/06 (5)
- Pathetic! nt - bjh 10:56:02 05/18/06 (4)
- What a silly statement. Kinda like my kids saying "oh yah!!" - jneutron 11:23:48 05/18/06 (3)
- And so's yer old man! nt - clarkjohnsen 12:50:41 05/18/06 (2)
- ???nt - jneutron 13:06:19 05/18/06 (1)
- Just an echo. nt - clarkjohnsen 13:24:15 05/18/06 (0)
- AES Papers - Jon Risch 10:18:18 05/18/06 (0)
- Why is minimizing preconceived expectations "extra difficulties"? - Caymus 23:26:59 05/16/06 (2)
- The usual ASSumption - Jon Risch 16:53:16 05/17/06 (1)
- Re: The usual ASSumption - real_jj 03:14:04 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: Isn't there a cable asylum for these posts? - thetubeguy1954 06:45:27 05/15/06 (1)
- How does your concern affect a DBT? - real_jj 00:36:37 05/16/06 (0)
- one thing i have noticed is - zuki 15:14:21 05/13/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - Dan Banquer 14:28:01 05/13/06 (63)
- "reactive enough " - Caymus 16:12:00 05/13/06 (62)
- A friend of mine once replaced his generic IC cabling with low capacitance coax that I recommended and... - Tom Dawson 20:41:22 05/14/06 (20)
- "Skin effect for 20 awg wire starts to significantly decrease its conductivity above 20 khz " says who? - Tre' 20:17:42 05/15/06 (16)
- Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 07:12:37 05/16/06 (15)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 10:54:07 05/16/06 (7)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - jneutron 11:23:42 05/16/06 (6)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 11:37:31 05/16/06 (5)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - jneutron 11:52:37 05/16/06 (4)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 14:20:09 05/16/06 (3)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 14:56:41 05/16/06 (2)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 16:19:27 05/16/06 (1)
- Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 18:22:51 05/16/06 (0)
- Ah, thanks. - jneutron 07:35:24 05/16/06 (6)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 07:48:16 05/16/06 (5)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 08:39:28 05/16/06 (4)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 09:04:36 05/16/06 (3)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 09:23:14 05/16/06 (2)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 09:37:54 05/16/06 (1)
- Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 10:00:20 05/16/06 (0)
- Then how does video and digital work if wire can’t even pass 20 KHz? - Caymus 19:10:34 05/15/06 (2)
- The ICs in question were the garden variety types supplied with most mass market audio equipment. - Tom Dawson 07:17:36 05/16/06 (0)
- I suspect his friend had a passive pre - andy_c 20:16:09 05/15/06 (0)
- Re: "reactive enough " - Dan Banquer 06:42:13 05/14/06 (40)
- So what frequencies are these resonances caused by quality cables? - Caymus 11:00:29 05/14/06 (29)
- Re: So what frequencies are these resonances caused by quality cables? - Dan Banquer 11:10:51 05/14/06 (28)
- Then what is the frequency response of wire? - Caymus 13:27:38 05/14/06 (27)
- Re: Then what is the frequency response of wire? - andy_c 17:51:40 05/14/06 (23)
- So what are the typical 1M interconnect cable values? - Caymus 18:43:53 05/14/06 (22)
- Re: why don't audiophile cable manufacturers (Kimber, MIT, etc) ever publish these figures? - Dave Kingsland 06:35:38 05/15/06 (15)
- 0.5db at 8MHz! - Caymus 16:27:47 05/15/06 (14)
- Re: 0.5db at 8MHz! - Tom Dawson 08:33:03 05/16/06 (0)
- Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - bjh 17:00:05 05/15/06 (12)
- Re: Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - andy19191 00:16:16 05/16/06 (11)
- Re: Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - thetubeguy1954 08:39:56 05/16/06 (10)
- One More Response For Andy - thetubeguy1954 09:17:26 05/16/06 (9)
- "I know you desperately needed to believe that." And him, an "objectivist". Very funny! nt - clarkjohnsen 13:56:21 05/17/06 (0)
- Re: One More Response For Andy - andy19191 14:25:30 05/16/06 (7)
- Re: One More Response For Andy - thetubeguy1954 08:12:30 05/17/06 (6)
- "I don't believe you to be a foolish man." There you go again with your damn belief systems. ;-) nt - clarkjohnsen 13:58:53 05/17/06 (0)
- Re: One More Response For Andy - geoffkait 08:28:21 05/17/06 (4)
- '"tried and true" tactics: appeal to common sense, appeal to education, appeal to science, etc.' - Lynn 07:10:45 05/18/06 (1)
- Re: Yes, I'm quite - geoffkait 08:20:59 05/18/06 (0)
- Not to forget Appeal to Authority... nt - clarkjohnsen 13:59:55 05/17/06 (1)
- Re: Excellent, excellent... nt - geoffkait 14:25:09 05/17/06 (0)
- Maybe it is not to their advantage... - Lynn 19:56:55 05/14/06 (4)
- "Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - bjh 20:23:58 05/14/06 (3)
- Re: "Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - Caymus 16:45:33 05/15/06 (1)
- You'd swear that in the question of the - bjh 16:57:17 05/15/06 (0)
- Re: "Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - Lynn 05:51:38 05/15/06 (0)
- Heavily dependent on output impedance of the source - andy_c 19:06:29 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: Then what is the frequency response of wire? - Dan Banquer 15:14:32 05/14/06 (2)
- Take this hint: Condescending and evasive replies usually means you don’t know - Caymus 16:30:59 05/14/06 (1)
- Re: Take this hint: Condescending and evasive replies usually means you don’t know - Dan Banquer 18:13:14 05/14/06 (0)
- "Why anyone thinks this is better, or worth more money is beyond me." - Lynn 09:04:14 05/14/06 (9)
- Strange indeed! - kerr 14:36:45 05/14/06 (3)
- Strange things do happen... - Lynn 15:11:57 05/14/06 (2)
- All the time! - kerr 17:47:55 05/14/06 (1)
- Stranger still... - Lynn 19:40:07 05/14/06 (0)
- Agreed - chris_w 13:33:09 05/14/06 (0)
- Just curious - E-Stat 10:16:51 05/14/06 (1)
- Hmmm... - Lynn 13:21:05 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: "Why anyone thinks this is better, or worth more money is beyond me." - Dan Banquer 09:58:11 05/14/06 (0)
- You might be mistaking - bjh 09:39:46 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - andy19191 10:20:58 05/13/06 (6)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - thetubeguy1954 13:56:48 05/14/06 (5)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - andy19191 22:43:30 05/14/06 (4)
- Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 06:52:19 05/15/06 (3)
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 08:03:12 05/15/06 (2)
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 10:56:07 05/15/06 (1)
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 14:01:31 05/15/06 (0)
- Prove, to whom, exactly? The numerous recalcitrants here? Forget it! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:09:20 05/13/06 (5)
- Re: Prove, to whom, exactly? The numerous recalcitrants here? Forget it! nt - Todd Krieger 12:22:50 05/14/06 (0)
- To whom? How about your readers! - Caymus 13:57:57 05/13/06 (0)
- Agreed. Why even bother? Why care? - Bruce Kendall 11:32:30 05/13/06 (2)
- Ah, but there are souls to be saved. nt - markrohr 17:14:41 05/14/06 (0)
- Eggs Ackley... - mkuller 12:06:36 05/13/06 (0)
- Why bother? - kerr 09:58:08 05/13/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - McAttack 09:09:00 05/12/06 (35)
- Then why do audiophiles need sound level meters just to position their speakers? - Caymus 17:17:18 05/13/06 (0)
- Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - Pat D 09:39:13 05/13/06 (33)
- Re: Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - bjh 12:53:18 05/13/06 (32)
- Re: Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - Pat D 13:39:39 05/13/06 (31)
- Pat, the poster didn't wtite ... - bjh 13:53:48 05/13/06 (30)
- Actually McAttack said we don't trust our ears . . . - Pat D 14:30:33 05/13/06 (29)
- Answer This Pat - thetubeguy1954 14:07:02 05/14/06 (22)
- Again, you confuse things. - Pat D 18:00:28 05/14/06 (19)
- Pat Once Again DON"T Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 06:06:39 05/15/06 (10)
- He pointed to a post that answers your question completely - real_jj 04:28:42 05/17/06 (0)
- And you ignore the point! Buridan's Donkey - Pat D 07:48:21 05/15/06 (8)
- Re: And you ignore the point! Buridan's Donkey - thetubeguy1954 08:13:05 05/15/06 (7)
- You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - real_jj 04:36:46 05/17/06 (3)
- Re: You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - thetubeguy1954 10:50:29 05/17/06 (2)
- Re: You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - Pat D 07:41:05 05/18/06 (0)
- RTFM - real_jj 04:50:42 05/18/06 (0)
- Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - Pat D 08:41:32 05/15/06 (2)
- Re: Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - thetubeguy1954 11:02:03 05/15/06 (1)
- Re: Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - Pat D 13:33:25 05/15/06 (0)
- "Sighted tests are unreliable for small audible differences, period." 1st article of Faith in Pat's religion. LOL - bjh 19:35:51 05/14/06 (7)
- You do understand science, don't you, bjh? - real_jj 04:42:18 05/17/06 (0)
- You obviously haven't begun to look into this. - Pat D 20:00:48 05/14/06 (5)
- Poor simple Pat, the absence of unanimity of opinion - bjh 20:12:23 05/14/06 (4)
- Deliberate misrepresentation? - Pat D 20:22:03 05/14/06 (3)
- As you are exhibiting manifestly transparent intellectual dishonestly there is no need to continue. Adieu I-Child. nt - bjh 20:27:41 05/14/06 (2)
- You misstate Pat's position and then accuse him of dishonesty? - real_jj 04:46:05 05/17/06 (0)
- I proved my case. You can't prove yours. (nt) - Pat D 20:44:22 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: Answer This Pat - theaudiohobby 16:35:17 05/14/06 (1)
- Re: Answer This Pat - thetubeguy1954 07:26:52 05/15/06 (0)
- Pat, should anyone suggest you *not* use blind testing, or object to - bjh 14:48:23 05/13/06 (5)
- "If your friends can not trust their own hearing or care to listen" - Pat D 18:05:06 05/14/06 (4)
- Pat, you are a complete I-Child! That explains your confusion as to why I don't take your foolish queries seriously. - bjh 20:01:54 05/14/06 (3)
- McAttack said the nonsense. - Pat D 20:10:06 05/14/06 (2)
- More nonsense ... Adieu I-Child. nt - bjh 20:29:15 05/14/06 (1)
- Back to ad hominems again. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. (nt) - Pat D 20:54:50 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - tomservo 09:09:21 05/12/06 (0)
- You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - Dave Pogue 10:49:47 05/12/06 (13)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - ernstr@xs4all.nl 17:29:19 05/13/06 (0)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 11:47:48 05/12/06 (11)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 03:01:34 05/14/06 (10)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 14:15:19 05/14/06 (6)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 23:27:03 05/14/06 (5)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 07:59:33 05/15/06 (4)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 08:46:09 05/15/06 (0)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - bjh 08:44:51 05/15/06 (2)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 14:08:42 05/15/06 (1)
- Unless you are grossly misrepresenting your prior position - bjh 15:03:15 05/15/06 (0)
- There's absolutely no point in trying to be "constructive" - Dave Pogue 13:29:11 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - May Belt 11:01:29 05/14/06 (1)
- Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 12:43:49 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - May Belt 11:12:43 05/12/06 (3)
- re: Our ears are the most sophisticated and most sensitive "test" devices on the planet. - KlausR. 23:14:33 05/13/06 (0)
- "The people you refer to want to deny you your intelligence." And there you have it. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:04:43 05/13/06 (1)
- What does intelligence have to do with hearing? (nt) - Pat D 14:31:39 05/13/06 (0)
- You can't! --- I believe I can always hear - kavakidd 12:18:31 05/12/06 (15)
- Scientific method says listening is only an "observation" - NOT proof - Caymus 14:49:11 05/12/06 (14)
- You don't get thetubeguy1954's point (read again). nt - Duster 14:52:19 05/12/06 (8)
- "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - Caymus 15:10:01 05/12/06 (7)
- And just because you THINK you DON'T hear it, - Dave Pogue 06:37:24 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - ernstr@xs4all.nl 18:09:17 05/13/06 (4)
- So you solve scientific problems "by definition!" ROFL - Pat D 20:14:49 05/14/06 (0)
- Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - andy19191 00:04:44 05/14/06 (2)
- Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - bjh 16:35:54 05/15/06 (1)
- Re: Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - andy19191 23:49:08 05/15/06 (0)
- The poster asked a rhetorical question... - Duster 15:28:41 05/12/06 (0)
- Here's something from a recent post by John Atkinson (Stereophile): - bjh 15:46:12 05/12/06 (3)
- I don’t think there’s any controversy about hearing ground loops! - Caymus 17:51:31 05/12/06 (2)
- Ground loop? - Duster 18:22:06 05/12/06 (1)
- Sorry, no insult was intended - Caymus 22:13:47 05/12/06 (0)
- Didn't I say you CAN'T???? - kavakidd 21:31:00 05/12/06 (0)
- Empirical proof (observation) is all that's needed. - Duster 12:35:18 05/12/06 (0)
- Were you to seek a professional journal publication, you would have to deal with the reviewers' mindsets. - Norm 13:58:26 05/12/06 (0)
- Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - Ted Smith 15:06:28 05/12/06 (0)
- " But these two don't want to accept the results or know the truth." - musetap 15:17:22 05/12/06 (0)
- No thanks, I'll let you break the Rules. - Pat D 17:01:26 05/12/06 (6)
- Hmm…maybe you’re allowed to *bash and reject* scientific listening methods here - Caymus 17:19:48 05/12/06 (2)
- LOL. We'll see ! (nt) - Pat D 18:14:50 05/12/06 (0)
- Cable Asylum Mission Statement - Duster 18:43:13 05/12/06 (0)
- I would suggest that the rules here work in your favor ... - bjh 18:36:41 05/12/06 (0)
- My Apologies Pat.... - thetubeguy1954 06:41:09 05/13/06 (1)
- Re: My Apologies Pat.... - Pat D 09:22:00 05/13/06 (0)
Follow Ups
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 08:03:12 05/15/06 (2)
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 10:56:07 05/15/06 (1)
- Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 14:01:31 05/15/06 (0)
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