Scientific method says listening is only an "observation" - NOT proof - Caymus

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Topic - How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - thetubeguy1954 08:15:33 05/12/06 (200)

I for one do believe that you are hearing differences but that's not the real point! - KlausR. 05:45:21 05/16/06 (2)

Re: I for one do believe that you are hearing differences but that's not the real point! - Caymus 10:51:26 05/16/06 (1)

Floyd Toole : Hearing is believing vs believing is hearing - KlausR. 23:58:01 05/16/06 (0)

Isn't there a cable asylum for these posts? - real_jj 00:55:14 05/15/06 (35)

It was originally posted in Cables... - Jon Risch 20:59:28 05/15/06 (32)

Because, Jon, DBT's are not allowed in the cable asylum... - real_jj 00:38:07 05/16/06 (31)

Re: Because, Jon, DBT's are not allowed in the cable asylum... - Jon Risch 10:38:47 05/16/06 (30)

An amateur DBT is still more accurate than an amateur impressionable (sighted) test - Caymus 11:07:54 05/16/06 (29)

Re: An amateur DBT is still more accurate than an amateur impressionable (sighted) test - thetubeguy1954 10:18:55 05/17/06 (4)

So far not a single human has proven they can differentiate silver from copper wire by listening - Caymus 13:00:47 05/17/06 (3)

Differentiating between copper and silver wire, that's an easy one! - KlausR. 10:36:12 05/18/06 (2)

I can hear the difference between RED and BLACK insulation! - Caymus 11:16:19 05/18/06 (1)

Oh yeah! I can hear red and black interconnects when they're IN THE ROOM! (nt) - Pat D 22:09:14 05/18/06 (0)

And there's the whole problem - Jon Risch 21:03:59 05/16/06 (23)

How is a "flawed DBT" worse than a sighted test? - real_jj 03:16:42 05/17/06 (2)

Re: How is a "flawed DBT" worse than a sighted test? - Jon Risch 21:33:28 05/17/06 (1)

Stuff and nonsense - real_jj 03:11:45 05/18/06 (0)

Re: And there's the whole problem - KlausR. 00:07:51 05/17/06 (16)

Re: And there's the whole problem - Jon Risch 15:51:02 05/17/06 (15)

Straw men burning left and right! Call the pompiers! - real_jj 04:58:05 05/19/06 (0)

Often I have volunteered to do the execution, if they provide the funding. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:47:18 05/18/06 (0)

Re: And there's the whole problem - KlausR. 00:04:28 05/18/06 (12)

Klaus, I believe you are incorrect. - jneutron 07:30:42 05/18/06 (11)

Yes, it was a pre-print... - KlausR. 07:56:52 05/18/06 (10)

Absolutely. - jneutron 08:35:00 05/18/06 (9)

Breaking radio silence to inquire .... - bjh 09:54:34 05/18/06 (8)

AES CONVENTION preprints - real_jj 05:06:06 05/19/06 (0)

Re: Breaking radio silence to inquire .... - jneutron 10:35:40 05/18/06 (5)

Pathetic! nt - bjh 10:56:02 05/18/06 (4)

What a silly statement. Kinda like my kids saying "oh yah!!" - jneutron 11:23:48 05/18/06 (3)

And so's yer old man! nt - clarkjohnsen 12:50:41 05/18/06 (2)

???nt - jneutron 13:06:19 05/18/06 (1)

Just an echo. nt - clarkjohnsen 13:24:15 05/18/06 (0)

AES Papers - Jon Risch 10:18:18 05/18/06 (0)

Why is minimizing preconceived expectations "extra difficulties"? - Caymus 23:26:59 05/16/06 (2)

The usual ASSumption - Jon Risch 16:53:16 05/17/06 (1)

Re: The usual ASSumption - real_jj 03:14:04 05/18/06 (0)

Re: Isn't there a cable asylum for these posts? - thetubeguy1954 06:45:27 05/15/06 (1)

How does your concern affect a DBT? - real_jj 00:36:37 05/16/06 (0)

one thing i have noticed is - zuki 15:14:21 05/13/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - Dan Banquer 14:28:01 05/13/06 (63)

"reactive enough " - Caymus 16:12:00 05/13/06 (62)

A friend of mine once replaced his generic IC cabling with low capacitance coax that I recommended and... - Tom Dawson 20:41:22 05/14/06 (20)

"Skin effect for 20 awg wire starts to significantly decrease its conductivity above 20 khz " says who? - Tre' 20:17:42 05/15/06 (16)

Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 07:12:37 05/16/06 (15)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 10:54:07 05/16/06 (7)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - jneutron 11:23:42 05/16/06 (6)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 11:37:31 05/16/06 (5)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - jneutron 11:52:37 05/16/06 (4)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 14:20:09 05/16/06 (3)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 14:56:41 05/16/06 (2)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tre' 16:19:27 05/16/06 (1)

Re: Sez this Microwave Encyclopedia web site - Tom Dawson 18:22:51 05/16/06 (0)

Ah, thanks. - jneutron 07:35:24 05/16/06 (6)

Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 07:48:16 05/16/06 (5)

Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 08:39:28 05/16/06 (4)

Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 09:04:36 05/16/06 (3)

Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 09:23:14 05/16/06 (2)

Re: Ah, thanks. - Tom Dawson 09:37:54 05/16/06 (1)

Re: Ah, thanks. - jneutron 10:00:20 05/16/06 (0)

Then how does video and digital work if wire canâ€™t even pass 20 KHz? - Caymus 19:10:34 05/15/06 (2)

The ICs in question were the garden variety types supplied with most mass market audio equipment. - Tom Dawson 07:17:36 05/16/06 (0)

I suspect his friend had a passive pre - andy_c 20:16:09 05/15/06 (0)

Re: "reactive enough " - Dan Banquer 06:42:13 05/14/06 (40)

So what frequencies are these resonances caused by quality cables? - Caymus 11:00:29 05/14/06 (29)

Re: So what frequencies are these resonances caused by quality cables? - Dan Banquer 11:10:51 05/14/06 (28)

Then what is the frequency response of wire? - Caymus 13:27:38 05/14/06 (27)

Re: Then what is the frequency response of wire? - andy_c 17:51:40 05/14/06 (23)

So what are the typical 1M interconnect cable values? - Caymus 18:43:53 05/14/06 (22)

Re: why don't audiophile cable manufacturers (Kimber, MIT, etc) ever publish these figures? - Dave Kingsland 06:35:38 05/15/06 (15)

0.5db at 8MHz! - Caymus 16:27:47 05/15/06 (14)

Re: 0.5db at 8MHz! - Tom Dawson 08:33:03 05/16/06 (0)

Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - bjh 17:00:05 05/15/06 (12)

Re: Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - andy19191 00:16:16 05/16/06 (11)

Re: Good time to lend a hand to one of your cohorts! - thetubeguy1954 08:39:56 05/16/06 (10)

One More Response For Andy - thetubeguy1954 09:17:26 05/16/06 (9)

"I know you desperately needed to believe that." And him, an "objectivist". Very funny! nt - clarkjohnsen 13:56:21 05/17/06 (0)

Re: One More Response For Andy - andy19191 14:25:30 05/16/06 (7)

Re: One More Response For Andy - thetubeguy1954 08:12:30 05/17/06 (6)

"I don't believe you to be a foolish man." There you go again with your damn belief systems. ;-) nt - clarkjohnsen 13:58:53 05/17/06 (0)

Re: One More Response For Andy - geoffkait 08:28:21 05/17/06 (4)

'"tried and true" tactics: appeal to common sense, appeal to education, appeal to science, etc.' - Lynn 07:10:45 05/18/06 (1)

Re: Yes, I'm quite - geoffkait 08:20:59 05/18/06 (0)

Not to forget Appeal to Authority... nt - clarkjohnsen 13:59:55 05/17/06 (1)

Re: Excellent, excellent... nt - geoffkait 14:25:09 05/17/06 (0)

Maybe it is not to their advantage... - Lynn 19:56:55 05/14/06 (4)

"Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - bjh 20:23:58 05/14/06 (3)

Re: "Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - Caymus 16:45:33 05/15/06 (1)

You'd swear that in the question of the - bjh 16:57:17 05/15/06 (0)

Re: "Also, some boutique cables have a deliberate sonic signature ... - Lynn 05:51:38 05/15/06 (0)

Heavily dependent on output impedance of the source - andy_c 19:06:29 05/14/06 (0)

Re: Then what is the frequency response of wire? - Dan Banquer 15:14:32 05/14/06 (2)

Take this hint: Condescending and evasive replies usually means you donâ€™t know - Caymus 16:30:59 05/14/06 (1)

Re: Take this hint: Condescending and evasive replies usually means you donâ€™t know - Dan Banquer 18:13:14 05/14/06 (0)

"Why anyone thinks this is better, or worth more money is beyond me." - Lynn 09:04:14 05/14/06 (9)

Strange indeed! - kerr 14:36:45 05/14/06 (3)

Strange things do happen... - Lynn 15:11:57 05/14/06 (2)

All the time! - kerr 17:47:55 05/14/06 (1)

Stranger still... - Lynn 19:40:07 05/14/06 (0)

Agreed - chris_w 13:33:09 05/14/06 (0)

Just curious - E-Stat 10:16:51 05/14/06 (1)

Hmmm... - Lynn 13:21:05 05/14/06 (0)

Re: "Why anyone thinks this is better, or worth more money is beyond me." - Dan Banquer 09:58:11 05/14/06 (0)

You might be mistaking - bjh 09:39:46 05/14/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - andy19191 10:20:58 05/13/06 (6)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - thetubeguy1954 13:56:48 05/14/06 (5)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - andy19191 22:43:30 05/14/06 (4)

Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 06:52:19 05/15/06 (3)

Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 08:03:12 05/15/06 (2)

Re: Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 10:56:07 05/15/06 (1)

Re: Answer My Specific Question. - andy19191 14:01:31 05/15/06 (0)

Prove, to whom, exactly? The numerous recalcitrants here? Forget it! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:09:20 05/13/06 (5)

Re: Prove, to whom, exactly? The numerous recalcitrants here? Forget it! nt - Todd Krieger 12:22:50 05/14/06 (0)

To whom? How about your readers! - Caymus 13:57:57 05/13/06 (0)

Agreed. Why even bother? Why care? - Bruce Kendall 11:32:30 05/13/06 (2)

Ah, but there are souls to be saved. nt - markrohr 17:14:41 05/14/06 (0)

Eggs Ackley... - mkuller 12:06:36 05/13/06 (0)

Why bother? - kerr 09:58:08 05/13/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - McAttack 09:09:00 05/12/06 (35)

Then why do audiophiles need sound level meters just to position their speakers? - Caymus 17:17:18 05/13/06 (0)

Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - Pat D 09:39:13 05/13/06 (33)

Re: Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - bjh 12:53:18 05/13/06 (32)

Re: Errr . . . when someone participates in a blind test, whose ears to they trust? - Pat D 13:39:39 05/13/06 (31)

Pat, the poster didn't wtite ... - bjh 13:53:48 05/13/06 (30)

Actually McAttack said we don't trust our ears . . . - Pat D 14:30:33 05/13/06 (29)

Answer This Pat - thetubeguy1954 14:07:02 05/14/06 (22)

Again, you confuse things. - Pat D 18:00:28 05/14/06 (19)

Pat Once Again DON"T Answer My Specific Question. - thetubeguy1954 06:06:39 05/15/06 (10)

He pointed to a post that answers your question completely - real_jj 04:28:42 05/17/06 (0)

And you ignore the point! Buridan's Donkey - Pat D 07:48:21 05/15/06 (8)

Re: And you ignore the point! Buridan's Donkey - thetubeguy1954 08:13:05 05/15/06 (7)

You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - real_jj 04:36:46 05/17/06 (3)

Re: You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - thetubeguy1954 10:50:29 05/17/06 (2)

Re: You won't read the answer, yet you complain you don't get one? - Pat D 07:41:05 05/18/06 (0)

RTFM - real_jj 04:50:42 05/18/06 (0)

Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - Pat D 08:41:32 05/15/06 (2)

Re: Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - thetubeguy1954 11:02:03 05/15/06 (1)

Re: Let's see if you change your tune when you do a proper blind test. - Pat D 13:33:25 05/15/06 (0)

"Sighted tests are unreliable for small audible differences, period." 1st article of Faith in Pat's religion. LOL - bjh 19:35:51 05/14/06 (7)

You do understand science, don't you, bjh? - real_jj 04:42:18 05/17/06 (0)

You obviously haven't begun to look into this. - Pat D 20:00:48 05/14/06 (5)

Poor simple Pat, the absence of unanimity of opinion - bjh 20:12:23 05/14/06 (4)

Deliberate misrepresentation? - Pat D 20:22:03 05/14/06 (3)

As you are exhibiting manifestly transparent intellectual dishonestly there is no need to continue. Adieu I-Child. nt - bjh 20:27:41 05/14/06 (2)

You misstate Pat's position and then accuse him of dishonesty? - real_jj 04:46:05 05/17/06 (0)

I proved my case. You can't prove yours. (nt) - Pat D 20:44:22 05/14/06 (0)

Re: Answer This Pat - theaudiohobby 16:35:17 05/14/06 (1)

Re: Answer This Pat - thetubeguy1954 07:26:52 05/15/06 (0)

Pat, should anyone suggest you *not* use blind testing, or object to - bjh 14:48:23 05/13/06 (5)

"If your friends can not trust their own hearing or care to listen" - Pat D 18:05:06 05/14/06 (4)

Pat, you are a complete I-Child! That explains your confusion as to why I don't take your foolish queries seriously. - bjh 20:01:54 05/14/06 (3)

McAttack said the nonsense. - Pat D 20:10:06 05/14/06 (2)

More nonsense ... Adieu I-Child. nt - bjh 20:29:15 05/14/06 (1)

Back to ad hominems again. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. (nt) - Pat D 20:54:50 05/14/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - tomservo 09:09:21 05/12/06 (0)

You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - Dave Pogue 10:49:47 05/12/06 (13)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - ernstr@xs4all.nl 17:29:19 05/13/06 (0)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 11:47:48 05/12/06 (11)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 03:01:34 05/14/06 (10)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 14:15:19 05/14/06 (6)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 23:27:03 05/14/06 (5)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 07:59:33 05/15/06 (4)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 08:46:09 05/15/06 (0)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - bjh 08:44:51 05/15/06 (2)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - thetubeguy1954 14:08:42 05/15/06 (1)

Unless you are grossly misrepresenting your prior position - bjh 15:03:15 05/15/06 (0)

There's absolutely no point in trying to be "constructive" - Dave Pogue 13:29:11 05/14/06 (0)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - May Belt 11:01:29 05/14/06 (1)

Re: You'll never prove it to the satisfaction of folks like this - andy19191 12:43:49 05/14/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - May Belt 11:12:43 05/12/06 (3)

re: Our ears are the most sophisticated and most sensitive "test" devices on the planet. - KlausR. 23:14:33 05/13/06 (0)

"The people you refer to want to deny you your intelligence." And there you have it. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:04:43 05/13/06 (1)

What does intelligence have to do with hearing? (nt) - Pat D 14:31:39 05/13/06 (0)

You can't! --- I believe I can always hear - kavakidd 12:18:31 05/12/06 (15)

Scientific method says listening is only an "observation" - NOT proof - Caymus 14:49:11 05/12/06 (14)

You don't get thetubeguy1954's point (read again). nt - Duster 14:52:19 05/12/06 (8)

"How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - Caymus 15:10:01 05/12/06 (7)

And just because you THINK you DON'T hear it, - Dave Pogue 06:37:24 05/14/06 (0)

Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - ernstr@xs4all.nl 18:09:17 05/13/06 (4)

So you solve scientific problems "by definition!" ROFL - Pat D 20:14:49 05/14/06 (0)

Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - andy19191 00:04:44 05/14/06 (2)

Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - bjh 16:35:54 05/15/06 (1)

Re: Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - andy19191 23:49:08 05/15/06 (0)

The poster asked a rhetorical question... - Duster 15:28:41 05/12/06 (0)

Here's something from a recent post by John Atkinson (Stereophile): - bjh 15:46:12 05/12/06 (3)

I donâ€™t think thereâ€™s any controversy about hearing ground loops! - Caymus 17:51:31 05/12/06 (2)

Ground loop? - Duster 18:22:06 05/12/06 (1)

Sorry, no insult was intended - Caymus 22:13:47 05/12/06 (0)

Didn't I say you CAN'T???? - kavakidd 21:31:00 05/12/06 (0)

Empirical proof (observation) is all that's needed. - Duster 12:35:18 05/12/06 (0)

Were you to seek a professional journal publication, you would have to deal with the reviewers' mindsets. - Norm 13:58:26 05/12/06 (0)

Re: How Does One Prove You Can Hear Different Cables - Ted Smith 15:06:28 05/12/06 (0)

" But these two don't want to accept the results or know the truth." - musetap 15:17:22 05/12/06 (0)

No thanks, I'll let you break the Rules. - Pat D 17:01:26 05/12/06 (6)

Hmmâ€¦maybe youâ€™re allowed to *bash and reject* scientific listening methods here - Caymus 17:19:48 05/12/06 (2)

LOL. We'll see ! (nt) - Pat D 18:14:50 05/12/06 (0)

Cable Asylum Mission Statement - Duster 18:43:13 05/12/06 (0)

I would suggest that the rules here work in your favor ... - bjh 18:36:41 05/12/06 (0)

My Apologies Pat.... - thetubeguy1954 06:41:09 05/13/06 (1)

Re: My Apologies Pat.... - Pat D 09:22:00 05/13/06 (0)

Follow Ups

Scientific method says listening is only an "observation" - NOT proof - Caymus 14:49:11 05/12/06 (14)

You don't get thetubeguy1954's point (read again). nt - Duster 14:52:19 05/12/06 (8)

"How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - Caymus 15:10:01 05/12/06 (7)

And just because you THINK you DON'T hear it, - Dave Pogue 06:37:24 05/14/06 (0)

Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - ernstr@xs4all.nl 18:09:17 05/13/06 (4)

So you solve scientific problems "by definition!" ROFL - Pat D 20:14:49 05/14/06 (0)

Re: "How Does One *Prove* You Can Hear Different Cables" - andy19191 00:04:44 05/14/06 (2)

Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - bjh 16:35:54 05/15/06 (1)

Re: Bad choice! This is not a power of suggestion/bias demonstration, - andy19191 23:49:08 05/15/06 (0)

The poster asked a rhetorical question... - Duster 15:28:41 05/12/06 (0)

Here's something from a recent post by John Atkinson (Stereophile): - bjh 15:46:12 05/12/06 (3)

I donâ€™t think thereâ€™s any controversy about hearing ground loops! - Caymus 17:51:31 05/12/06 (2)

Ground loop? - Duster 18:22:06 05/12/06 (1)

Sorry, no insult was intended - Caymus 22:13:47 05/12/06 (0)

Didn't I say you CAN'T???? - kavakidd 21:31:00 05/12/06 (0)