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Re: Aczel talked measurement, mkuller talked parts.

Pat,

I'm NOT jumping in the middle of a conversation as you claim. Rather I'm doing exactly what everyone else here does. Reading the thread which you started and giving input where I'm interested in what's being discussed. This is an audio forum and we're all free to do that here. I don't care about your "history" with mkuller so I don't wish for you to explain all that history to me either.

Pat you're 100% incorrect in assuming that because Aczel was talking about measurements & mkuller was talking parts, these are two seperate topics. These need to be viewed as one and the same. They are inseparably related to one another. The type & quality of parts used & how they're implemented in a circuit topology is precisely what's being measured in Aczel's 7 prerequisites.

Peter claimed these 7 prerequisites were are all that's needed to be fulfilled in order to make it any impossible for two amplifiers to sound different, period! So while I'll agree 100% that Peter Aczel does not specifically say the words components that measure completely differently in every parameter, that's not the point that needs to be considered. The point that's most important is the fact that Aczel makes no room for exceptions to his rule. Aczel never declares if the amplifiers use completely different circuits, or different parts, at very different costs and or measure completely differently in every other parameter, that makes them excempt. What Peter does is he declares It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different... if and when these 7 requirements are met:

1) The levels are matched
2) Each has high input impedance
3) Each has a low output impedance
4) Each has a flat frequency response
5) Each has low distortion
6) Each has a low noise floor
7) Each is not clipped

That's it Pat. According to Aczel these 7 prerequisites are all that's needed to make it any impossible for two amplifiers to sound different, period! Just because you declare mkuller's statement is refering to a different case entirely doesn't mean that's the case. In fact that IMHO is just a lame attempt to try and obscure the truth that what's providing the high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion and low noise floor is in fact circuit topology and individual components used!

I believe it's assinine to believe that if we took the Zero Feedback Impedance Amplifier as seen at this link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42259&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

And then compared directly to an amplifier that used a completely different topology, it would be impossible for two amplifiers to sound different, provided they both met Aczels 7 prerequisites. In fact it's been proposed that even different capacitor types have distinct "sounds" in and of themselves. Here's an article by Steven Bench where he presents his beliefs on how why different dielectrics cause capacitors to sound different.
http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html

Why do you think so very few manufacturers use electrolytic caps vs polypropylene cap (or other types)in the audio signal path of an amp? This is NOT a matter of semantics like you want us all to believe. This is reality. You're very much like your mentor Peter Aczel. You want to believe if the signal coming out has a flat FR, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped, it cannot possibly be "completely" different, because of these similarities they share.

Look at it like this. What if we had two speakers that were exactly or as close to exactly the same as we can get, made by the same manfacturer. Both speakers had flat frequncey response, same efficiency, same TS parameters, both were 8in single fullrange drivers one made from paper, the other from aluminum. They would be completely different in one is metal the other is paper and most likely would sound different as well. Yet they'd also both have flat frequency response, same efficiency, same TS parameters. So while they'd share many traits in common they could still "sound" different.

Sorry Pat your arguement doesn't hold water. Peter's 7 prerequisites fall short in the face of logic. Circuit topology and quality of parts used is extremely important. Maybe as important as Aczel's 7 prerequisites. Of course you'll disagree and I'm willing to listen to why you don't believe that's so.

Thetubeguy1954

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