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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: A classic mistake posted by real_jj on May 18, 2006 at 00:23:13:
Hi.Don't blind me with the typical "psychology" excuses, please.
As contrary to 'canned' (reproduced) music, we enjoy live concerts because we listen, we watch & we share the emotion there that canned music cannot deliver. That's how we enjoy music since day one of human civlization.
Any aural methodologies employing whatever man-made protocols removing any of these senses our brain needed to interprete music is incomplete & therefore invalid.
I never downplay usefulness of objective analysis, but until that day
arrives (who knows when?) that more effective & relevant objective analysis can totally interprete how our subjective perception works, let's pay some due respects to what we hear now.As I posted repeatedly, the static measurement of THD. IM on the performance of an audio amp since day one, bears nothing to what we hear & we simply disregard it when assessing an audio amp.
The idea is the same.
Simply ask those physchology experts how they enjoy music & hear what they will tell you. Do they listen to music different way because they think they know the psychological part of it.
I don't care whoever experts they claim to be, common sense & logics always rule.
c-J
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - real_jj 03:18:52 05/17/06 (168)
- The problem is your ears are attached to a brain. - tomservo 08:59:38 05/18/06 (4)
- Excellent post. Thank you. nt. - Lynn 19:37:53 05/18/06 (0)
- Right. So the only defensible DBT would have solitary subjects - Al Sekela 14:38:27 05/18/06 (1)
- Absolutely! - real_jj 00:49:54 05/19/06 (0)
- Some are...some only have EARS...(nt) - mkuller 11:21:35 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Paulhoff 05:53:13 05/18/06 (25)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 07:07:13 05/18/06 (24)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Paulhoff 12:42:03 05/18/06 (23)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 14:30:39 05/18/06 (14)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 00:50:34 05/19/06 (13)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Paulhoff 06:16:36 05/19/06 (1)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 07:06:41 05/19/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 04:50:51 05/19/06 (10)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 06:03:19 05/19/06 (9)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 09:14:56 05/19/06 (8)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 12:52:53 05/19/06 (7)
- Why that could be. - kerr 13:45:09 05/19/06 (6)
- Re: Why that could be. - andy19191 01:00:20 05/20/06 (5)
- Re: Why that could be. - kerr 07:09:51 05/20/06 (3)
- Re: Why that could be. - andy19191 02:48:44 05/21/06 (2)
- Re: Why that could be. - kerr 06:02:00 05/21/06 (1)
- Re: Why that could be. - andy19191 04:41:13 05/22/06 (0)
- Re: Excellent, someone has taken Zen - geoffkait 02:43:13 05/20/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 13:16:09 05/18/06 (7)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Paulhoff 16:54:57 05/18/06 (5)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 00:30:26 05/19/06 (4)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 04:53:46 05/19/06 (3)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 06:57:45 05/19/06 (1)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - kerr 09:11:13 05/19/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Paulhoff 06:20:17 05/19/06 (0)
- Sorry - I should have just let you respond (nt) - kerr 14:31:46 05/18/06 (0)
- Funny! - kerr 17:13:43 05/17/06 (0)
- Would you care to share your DBT methodology with us? - E-Stat 16:43:42 05/17/06 (51)
- Google BS1116.1 - real_jj 00:30:37 05/18/06 (18)
- Description easy to find - E-Stat 05:27:45 05/18/06 (17)
- I know an english version exists, I've read it. - real_jj 00:51:56 05/19/06 (16)
- For a "nominal fee" of course :) (nt) - E-Stat 07:14:17 05/19/06 (15)
- Maybe after he reveals his secret German DBT methodology... - mkuller 13:04:18 05/20/06 (14)
- Inquiring minds want to know! (nt) - E-Stat 17:00:56 05/20/06 (13)
- Pathetic, both of you - real_jj 13:03:10 05/21/06 (12)
- My mistake - E-Stat 20:28:22 05/21/06 (11)
- Please show evidence for your professional accusation - real_jj 07:46:05 05/22/06 (10)
- Oh brother... - E-Stat 10:30:41 05/22/06 (7)
- You going to file your accusation or not? - real_jj 09:26:02 05/23/06 (6)
- "Filing accusations" is your thing, not mine - E-Stat 10:02:28 05/23/06 (5)
- Your accusation follows. - real_jj 11:58:29 05/23/06 (4)
- Let's say someone asks you - E-Stat 12:12:49 05/23/06 (3)
- I'm not a professional chef... - real_jj 07:43:55 05/24/06 (2)
- Well, had you followed my instructions - E-Stat 08:27:13 05/24/06 (1)
- Re: Well, had you followed my instructions - real_jj 16:07:42 05/24/06 (0)
- If you're a real expert... - mkuller 09:26:41 05/22/06 (1)
- Re: If you're a real expert... - real_jj 09:44:09 05/22/06 (0)
- Curious, if you reject blind methods, what’s your methodology? - Caymus 17:56:47 05/17/06 (31)
- Expectation biases go both ways - E-Stat 09:05:15 05/18/06 (3)
- Perhaps, but that's not all there is to it. - Pat D 06:39:39 05/19/06 (2)
- You would be right... - E-Stat 17:02:07 05/20/06 (1)
- You really can be vicious . . . - Pat D 20:53:09 05/25/06 (0)
- Safeguards Against Expectation Biases Aren't Needed - thetubeguy1954 05:50:10 05/18/06 (9)
- Re: Safeguards Against Expectation Biases Aren't Needed - real_jj 13:04:01 05/21/06 (0)
- Re: Safeguards Against Expectation Biases Aren't Needed - mls-stl 16:22:17 05/18/06 (0)
- So you believe you are a superior being above normal human frailties? - Caymus 10:11:16 05/18/06 (0)
- What do you have to lose? - Lynn 06:53:32 05/18/06 (5)
- Re: What do you have to lose? - thetubeguy1954 08:37:04 05/18/06 (4)
- Re: "Music gives biologists fits." (Just as audio gives physicists fits?) - $orabji! 14:53:32 05/21/06 (0)
- For the record... - Lynn 19:18:55 05/18/06 (2)
- Re: For the record... - Pat D 21:20:08 05/25/06 (0)
- I rarely listen to my system alone - Caymus 11:28:24 05/19/06 (0)
- Listening? Heaven forbid! nt - Norm 20:39:21 05/17/06 (16)
- DBT -) Listening... Sighted test -) listening, seeing, guessing, imagining... - real_jj 00:31:55 05/18/06 (15)
- SO YOU SAY, BUT WHO CARES WHAT YOU SAY? nt - Norm 06:23:48 05/18/06 (14)
- Nothing can beat malignant ignorance, Norm - real_jj 00:52:50 05/19/06 (2)
- What is malignant ignorance? - Norm 07:16:07 05/19/06 (1)
- "I DON'T CARE" - real_jj 07:44:45 05/24/06 (0)
- Actually quite a few of us do, and JJ makes a lot more sense than faith based audio fanatics. nt. - Lynn 06:55:36 05/18/06 (10)
- And quite a few of us don't - Dave Pogue 07:36:01 05/18/06 (9)
- Apparently you do since you are replying to this thread. nt. - Lynn 20:27:23 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: And quite a few of us don't - Pat D 07:48:26 05/18/06 (7)
- Yes, Pat, we know - Dave Pogue 08:23:43 05/18/06 (6)
- Ping: WELLFED! Here's another one! - Pat D 09:25:16 05/18/06 (5)
- Like I said, Pat - Dave Pogue 09:41:18 05/18/06 (4)
- Re: Like I said, Pat - Pat D 13:20:42 05/18/06 (3)
- Again, we don't have to prove them. We are disinterested in proving them. nt - Norm 17:41:59 05/18/06 (2)
- Then don’t whine when people don’t believe your amazing hearing boasts (nt) - Caymus 18:41:14 05/18/06 (1)
- When have I whined and since when have I boasted? Still delusional? nt - Norm 18:51:33 05/18/06 (0)
- I suspect this is REALLY a troll, and it worked. nt - Norm 14:30:21 05/17/06 (1)
- How "republican" (present-day) of you... - real_jj 00:29:57 05/18/06 (0)
- Call the Police..... Call 9-1-1.... Call the Pentagon.... - Todd Krieger 13:32:04 05/17/06 (5)
- Interpol! The Ascended Masters! nt - clarkjohnsen 13:47:02 05/17/06 (4)
- Or all the sea fishermen you know - that's quite a lot of chum...(nt) - mkuller 14:30:34 05/17/06 (3)
- I see the conspiaracy theorists are at it again... - real_jj 00:42:23 05/18/06 (2)
- No, We're Doing the Conspiring..... - Todd Krieger 11:44:05 05/18/06 (1)
- Since you admit it, it's not a conspiracy... - real_jj 01:05:56 05/19/06 (0)
- Most every audiophile who has tried them has found them useless...(nt) - mkuller 10:54:41 05/17/06 (8)
- Please do not speak for 'most' audiophiles. nt. - Lynn 20:57:56 05/17/06 (4)
- Au contrere... - mkuller 11:25:42 05/18/06 (3)
- I suggest.... - Lynn 19:26:22 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: Au contrere... - andy19191 13:24:07 05/18/06 (1)
- By Jove! I think you've got it. - Pat D 06:43:40 05/19/06 (0)
- Most pro folks who are trained to use it correctly value them highly nt) - Dan Banquer 11:11:23 05/17/06 (2)
- I'm just a regular Joe and DBT have changed the way I listen to audio (nt) - Lambda 11:30:13 05/17/06 (1)
- Perhaps, an exception can be made for trained regular Joes. (nt) - soulfood 08:24:09 05/18/06 (0)
- It's hard to find a way to scoff at this ... - Dave Pogue 08:51:43 05/17/06 (17)
- Re: Make that 13 angry men - geoffkait 10:17:32 05/17/06 (16)
- No, Geoff, it's impossible to get "steamed" over nothing - Dave Pogue 11:40:04 05/17/06 (15)
- Re: Ouch! Nothing like getting chastised by - geoffkait 15:11:29 05/17/06 (2)
- Ooh, what a stinging retort! - Dave Pogue 17:03:39 05/17/06 (1)
- Re: I suppose I should feel... - geoffkait 03:50:18 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: No, Geoff, it's impossible to get "steamed" over nothing - musman 12:01:03 05/17/06 (11)
- Re: sounds like a personal problem... - geoffkait 14:09:03 05/17/06 (10)
- geoffkait Im not to stupid I never purchased any of your crap. - musman 05:02:20 05/18/06 (7)
- Re: uh, oh, somebody's channeling - geoffkait 06:29:17 05/18/06 (6)
- Where's your medical license, Kait? - real_jj 00:55:47 05/19/06 (5)
- Re: I have a bit of experience as - geoffkait 05:29:16 05/19/06 (4)
- Re: *I have a bit of experience as a stand-up comic* - musman 13:09:53 05/19/06 (3)
- Re: Let me see, I'm guessing... - geoffkait 15:18:07 05/19/06 (2)
- Argument from intimidation - musman 16:21:54 05/19/06 (1)
- Re: Argument? Is that what this is? - geoffkait 10:16:56 05/20/06 (0)
- I wasn't gonna say it! nt - clarkjohnsen 14:38:55 05/17/06 (1)
- Then don't. nt - Dan Banquer 17:27:44 05/17/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - Lynn 07:52:17 05/17/06 (19)
- ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T TRUST THIER EARS USE DBT'S. - thetubeguy1954 09:49:49 05/17/06 (12)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T TRUST THIER EARS USE DBT'S. - mls-stl 18:00:36 05/17/06 (1)
- Great post! - kerr 04:51:40 05/18/06 (0)
- What contradictory nonsense! - Pat D 16:55:15 05/17/06 (4)
- Re: What contradictory nonsense! - thetubeguy1954 10:15:52 05/19/06 (1)
- Don't you remember what you wrote, Tom? - Pat D 15:16:56 05/19/06 (0)
- Re: What contradictory nonsense! - thetubeguy1954 05:58:26 05/18/06 (1)
- So, .... - Lynn 06:36:01 05/18/06 (0)
- I keep telling those guys, give me funding to do the tests you demand, and I'll happily comply. But their money is... - clarkjohnsen 10:13:07 05/17/06 (4)
- Re: I keep telling those guys, give me funding to do the tests you demand, and I'll happily comply. But their money is.. - thetubeguy1954 12:23:11 05/17/06 (3)
- "This seems so simple." Indeed, which is why it eludes most "objectivists." Who, when you think about it... - clarkjohnsen 13:18:20 05/17/06 (2)
- Re: "This seems so simple." Indeed, which is why it eludes most "objectivists." Who, when you think about it... - thetubeguy1954 10:18:58 05/19/06 (1)
- Excellent point... it had eluded me. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:33:10 05/19/06 (0)
- Re: ONLY THOSE WHO USE DBT'S TRULY TRUST THEIR EARS - andy19191 09:19:04 05/17/06 (0)
- It's a nice idea, Lynn.but - jneutron 08:37:42 05/17/06 (0)
- Sighted listening dosn't have to be "pre-conceived" with biases. - cheap-Jack 08:18:18 05/17/06 (3)
- So? - Pat D 15:30:18 05/17/06 (2)
- Pls explain "we are built to percieve differences". (nt) - cheap-Jack 13:22:39 05/18/06 (1)
- Re: Pls explain "we are built to percieve differences". (nt) - Pat D 14:17:27 05/18/06 (0)
- Not to mention, chicks really dig guys who are into DBT (nt) - Bersani 07:45:33 05/17/06 (0)
- A simple question. - cheap-Jack 07:36:59 05/17/06 (7)
- A classic mistake - real_jj 00:23:13 05/18/06 (4)
- Whose mistake of what? - cheap-Jack 12:16:37 05/18/06 (3)
- Re: Whose mistake of what? - Paulhoff 13:04:00 05/18/06 (2)
- They both supplement each other. (nt) - cheap-Jack 13:17:40 05/18/06 (1)
- Two suggestions - real_jj 01:09:02 05/19/06 (0)
- An Even Better Question.... - Todd Krieger 13:20:04 05/17/06 (1)
- An even worse question... - real_jj 00:24:17 05/18/06 (0)
- Re: So, you've resorted... - geoffkait 04:23:47 05/17/06 (19)
- Have you anything to contribute??? - real_jj 04:39:08 05/17/06 (18)
- Re: 12 Angry Men - geoffkait 07:03:43 05/17/06 (17)
- The classic (and shortest) line is, "That can't be!" It's been shouted at the pioneers of discovery... - clarkjohnsen 10:09:37 05/17/06 (15)
- The ungracious antagonists below seem to have been responding to a different post. That's called a straw man argument. n - clarkjohnsen 07:36:25 05/18/06 (1)
- Where's the proof, Clark? - real_jj 05:09:17 05/19/06 (0)
- You ready to prove that , Clark? - real_jj 00:35:37 05/18/06 (0)
- Proven vs. unproven science - Caymus 16:18:45 05/17/06 (0)
- How many pioneers have refused to put their theory to the test ? - Lambda 12:00:28 05/17/06 (10)
- That evades the point. There are the genius discoverers, then there are the... - clarkjohnsen 12:23:47 05/17/06 (9)
- Please... Einstein didn't take the picture... - Lambda 13:05:31 05/17/06 (8)
- You miss the point entirely. - clarkjohnsen 13:11:44 05/17/06 (7)
- Perhaps the point should be missed. - Lynn 21:08:14 05/17/06 (6)
- Re: Perhaps the point should be missed. - mls-stl 11:43:24 05/18/06 (5)
- I agree with your post, but it does not support Clark's position that researchers do not test for themselves. nt. - Lynn 19:33:04 05/18/06 (0)
- Precisely the point. Plus, the naysayers will *still* bray, usually until they take their final breath. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:44:05 05/18/06 (0)
- That's why real scientisis publish their discoveries for peer review - con artists don't - Caymus 12:09:06 05/18/06 (2)
- Re: That's why real scientisis publish their discoveries for peer review - con artists don't - Paulhoff 11:49:58 05/22/06 (0)
- Exactly. nt. - Lynn 19:30:47 05/18/06 (0)
- Just show me the evidence... - real_jj 07:07:03 05/17/06 (1)
Follow Ups
- Whose mistake of what? - cheap-Jack 12:16:37 05/18/06 (3)
- Re: Whose mistake of what? - Paulhoff 13:04:00 05/18/06 (2)
- They both supplement each other. (nt) - cheap-Jack 13:17:40 05/18/06 (1)
- Two suggestions - real_jj 01:09:02 05/19/06 (0)
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