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ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T TRUST THIER EARS USE DBT'S.

Lynn,

You state: "The debate between subjective evaluation of sound quality vs. objective measured performance is actually a different topic than the DBT topic. So, I am not sure why the old 'subjectivist' vs. 'objectivist' arguments come into play."

I'll be happy to explain why the old 'subjectivist' vs. 'objectivist' arguments come into play." You actually answered your own question in asking it. Although this won't hold true 100% of the time. In most cases, who but a Subjectivist uses subjective evaluation as the primary means to determine sound quality? And in turn who but a Objectivist uses objective measured performance as a primary means to determine sound quality?

Furthermore Objectivists seem unable to discuss ANY audio topic without bringing in DBT's or ABX's and the supposed "scientific proof" they provide into the discussion/debate/arguement. Objectivists have about 5-8 canned answers they repeat over and over again, in response to most anything said by a Subjectivist. Hence once DBT is mentioned as the required/prefered means to truly determine sound quality, Objectivists methods vs Subjectivist methods begin.

Let any audiophile propose subjective evaluation of sound quality be used as a valid means of selecting an audio component and the Objectivists start demanding proof via DBT's or ABX's be used to prove the person using subjective evaluation isn't fooling themselves into believing the component they've choosen is superior. The answer to your question is actually quite that simple!
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In regards to your comment that "It is a bit odd that people who would normally take the position that a subjective measurement is of more value vs. measured, do not endorse DBTs which fully supports their view that the best method of evaluation is listening."

Although I cannot an will not speak for other Subjectivists. IMHO the reason that I find a subjective measurement is of more value vs. measured ones is this. I believe that at this present time we do not know what set of criteria it is we need to measure. By this I mean, I don't believe science has yet discovered what tests reveal why one audio component is "percieved" as sounding more realistic than another audio component.

The fact that 100's of SET owners swear that SET amps present the most realistic replication of live music they've ever heard would appear to substantiate my beliefs. When using todays set of criteria to measure amplifier performance, we find solidstate measures as being the more accurate of the two toplogies. Yet when listening the opposite occurs and now the SET appears to be the more accurate at replicating music. There's only one I can think of for an amplifier to measure less accurately and yet sound more realistic.

Scientists have to be measuring critera that is not indicative of what the human ear uses to measure differences in sound and then decide what sounds real and what dosen't. IMHO when scientists finally discover that in reality the sun doesn't rotate around the earth i.e. when they know what set of audio criteria they need to measure, we'll find that in reality SET amps are the more accurate of the two toplogies.
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Lastly Lynn you state: "we really do need a moderator for Prop Head and this should be snake oil free zone, that promotes discussion of equipment on proven merits. This would include discussions based upon measured performance, DBTs, and based upon known laws of physics. It would be refreshing."

That would ONLY be refreshing to Objectivists who believe in the tests being used. Who gets to decide what is snake oil? Would snake oil be anything that today's quite obviously flawed sets of tests cannot confirm? If that's the case, why then would I, or any other self respecting audiophile/music lover, who realises that todays tests as they are presently being used by the proponents of DBT's, ABX's and measured performance are flawed?

One day, when scientists finally discover how to measure the actual set of criteria the human ear uses to determine whats live music and what isn't, I believe that the Objectivists will discover:

1) Subjectivists haven't been "fooling themselves."
2) SET amps are more accurate than solidstate amps.
3) The human ear is very reliable.
4) DBT's & ABX's aren't required (unless of course you don't trust your ears) for the Subjectivists have been choosing the more accurate component soley by listening for years.

Thetubeguy1954



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