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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. posted by theaudiohobby on June 11, 2006 at 10:59:43:
What is solid state grain?
How are you quantifying this distortion?Quantifying this distortion with continuous tone measurements is elusive, just as trying to do the same would be with dielectric absorption and loss in capacitors which share many of the same mechanisms.
You can build a preamp or even a power amp using nothing but Z5U and X5R capacitors in the audio path, but nobody (with decent high end credentials) does because of their poor sonic quality even though such amps can be easily got to measure .01% THD. A similar though not quite as drastic situation applies to Silicon interelectrode junction capacitances. Some of the more widely known effects of these nonlinear capacitances relate to driving the output stages of SS amplifiers where the charge storage effect in BJTs and nonlinear gate capacitances in power mosfets tend to require much more robust drive stages than otherwise would be necessary to keep open loop distortion from being excessive at higher audio frequencies.
An analogy I have used is comparing solid state sound to the effect of a slight layer of dust or grime on a window. If you don't pay attention, you may never notice its effect, but compared to a clean pane, even one with some waviness (a la the low order distortion of some tube equipment), the overall visual effect of looking at a pleasing scene through the clean but slightly visually distorted window is much more satisfactory.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - E-Stat 11:07:50 06/06/06 (165)
- Because the goober market is insignificant - Don T 10:37:19 06/11/06 (0)
- Because with today's technology, they are pointless - Soundmind 04:39:26 06/11/06 (0)
- A straight answer: DBT's are strong evidence not all components sound different & most manufacturers don't like that - Richard BassNut Greene 10:14:01 06/09/06 (28)
- Just curious-if you made an amp that sounded exactly like a Krell or Bryston at 1/5 price why wouldn't you advertise it? - Soundmind 17:11:39 06/11/06 (1)
- People at the lower price point wouldn't know Krell / Bryston & people interested in Krell / Bryston wouldn't believe it - Richard BassNut Greene 16:38:46 06/15/06 (0)
- Why shouldn't there be differences? - unclestu52 14:44:07 06/10/06 (8)
- Yes, but can humans actually hear every difference? - Caymus 15:16:34 06/11/06 (1)
- Could you please - unclestu52 20:13:18 06/11/06 (0)
- People willing to experiment find they have a much harder time hearing differences than expected - Richard BassNut Greene 13:24:39 06/11/06 (5)
- Actually I do a lot of experimentation. - unclestu52 20:54:11 06/11/06 (4)
- Are you forgetting the "Wanting to Hear Differences Bias"? - Richard BassNut Greene 10:15:44 06/13/06 (3)
- What if you didn't want to hear a difference? - unclestu52 13:44:22 06/13/06 (2)
- I've never met anyone who did not want to hear a difference - Richard BassNut Greene 09:23:38 06/14/06 (1)
- Your position has been duly noted (NT) - unclestu52 10:46:16 06/14/06 (0)
- Re: A straight answer: DBT's are strong evidence not all components sound different & most manufacturers don't like th - Tom Dawson 13:03:22 06/09/06 (16)
- Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Richard BassNut Greene 13:52:17 06/09/06 (15)
- You can refute Richard's universal statement with a single counterexample, - Pat D 10:19:59 06/10/06 (1)
- Posted in the wrong place. - Pat D 14:43:35 06/10/06 (0)
- Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Soundmind 20:20:46 06/09/06 (3)
- Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Tom Dawson 20:42:25 06/09/06 (2)
- Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Soundmind 04:05:19 06/10/06 (1)
- Re: Any amps with tubes will have more distortion and will distort the frequency response - Tom Dawson 19:45:51 06/11/06 (0)
- " Any amps with tubes..." - sounds like blatant anti-thermionic bias to me.... - Tom Dawson 15:05:58 06/09/06 (8)
- I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Pat D 18:48:50 06/09/06 (7)
- OTL = output transformerless (nt) - andy_c 19:28:25 06/09/06 (1)
- Thanks for the information. (nt) - Pat D 06:59:33 06/16/06 (0)
- Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Tom Dawson 19:23:08 06/09/06 (4)
- Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - theaudiohobby 10:59:43 06/11/06 (2)
- Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Tom Dawson 19:47:30 06/12/06 (0)
- Explanation of falling distortion with reduced output - Soundmind 04:48:11 06/12/06 (0)
- You can refute Richard's universal statement with a single counterexample, - Pat D 14:42:24 06/10/06 (0)
- An informed customer ... can bankrupt a company - Richard BassNut Greene 10:00:30 06/09/06 (3)
- Perhaps - E-Stat 10:14:54 06/09/06 (2)
- Or stated more plainly - E-Stat 11:23:05 06/09/06 (1)
- There's always someone with a cheaper product - Richard BassNut Greene 13:55:56 06/09/06 (0)
- Like people want pocket protector wielding coke bottle lensed geeks telling them what audio equipment to buy. - Tom Dawson 19:18:57 06/07/06 (1)
- Re: Like people want pocket protector wielding coke bottle lensed geeks telling them what audio equipment to buy. - morricab 01:44:36 06/08/06 (0)
- DBT's can be useful, but who are the test subjects? - unclestu52 14:55:33 06/07/06 (11)
- See this article for an example of what you say hasn't been mentioned - andy_c 15:58:41 06/07/06 (10)
- The spirit of Julian Hirsch lives on! - E-Stat 10:24:47 06/09/06 (3)
- Notice of STH violation - andy_c 17:09:45 06/09/06 (2)
- Re: Oh so funny - cheers -nt - theaudiohobby 16:29:01 06/10/06 (0)
- LMAO. nt - Dan Banquer 11:09:01 06/10/06 (0)
- So are we to - unclestu52 18:07:57 06/07/06 (2)
- Some more info - andy_c 18:37:04 06/07/06 (1)
- Thank you for the offer - unclestu52 21:29:51 06/07/06 (0)
- Re: See this article for an example of what you say hasn't been mentioned - Dan Banquer 17:09:11 06/07/06 (2)
- Nice try, Dan... - mkuller 11:01:30 06/09/06 (0)
- Was this post intended as a character attack on m. kuller? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:35:59 06/09/06 (0)
- Do you believe those Quantum-bots, Rocks and Clocks are real? - Caymus 14:15:39 06/07/06 (2)
- Real profits, real placebo effect, DBT validation - well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. nt - Tom Dawson 19:01:41 06/07/06 (0)
- I have zero exposure to those things - E-Stat 17:58:25 06/07/06 (0)
- A reflection of the regard in which DBTs are actually held by most? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:02:43 06/07/06 (16)
- Yup, certainly by most who sell audiophile snake-oil (nt) - Caymus 13:47:04 06/07/06 (0)
- If anyone cares, here's the Asylum's stated position on DBTs - Soundmind 13:31:55 06/07/06 (0)
- And why almost NO professional observational listeners - equipment reviewers - do. (nt) - mkuller 13:07:17 06/07/06 (5)
- Agreed, and neither do psychics, channelers and all charlatans - Caymus 13:55:56 06/07/06 (4)
- So you put manufacturers and equipment designers who don't use them in the same category? (nt) - mkuller 15:12:34 06/07/06 (3)
- No, just those unproven equipment reviewers… - Caymus 16:22:46 06/07/06 (2)
- No one is claiming equipment reviewers have "incredible perception" but you and Bass Nut…(nt) - mkuller 10:33:56 06/09/06 (1)
- But they do claim exceptional hearing indirectly when they claim to hear ICs, pebbles, interconnects, etc. - Pat D 08:56:00 06/19/06 (0)
- A reflection of what magazines / mfr’s “teach†the target market - tomservo 11:43:59 06/07/06 (6)
- So the readerships are all chumps, right? Uninformed riffraff? - clarkjohnsen 11:59:29 06/07/06 (5)
- No. Just you - Richard BassNut Greene 09:38:56 06/09/06 (0)
- Has your magazine EVER reviewed one of its advertiser's products it didn't like? nt - Soundmind 13:07:57 06/07/06 (0)
- Not entirely. - tomservo 12:59:55 06/07/06 (1)
- Yesterday I replied at length, and agreeably, but it got lost by AA... - clarkjohnsen 07:25:05 06/09/06 (0)
- Re: So the readerships are all chumps, right? Uninformed riffraff? - Dan Banquer 12:08:33 06/07/06 (0)
- Yep. Oh, say, most people believe in astrology, too... - real_jj 10:28:22 06/07/06 (0)
- Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - andy19191 06:23:14 06/07/06 (22)
- What about Wireworld? - Atexanathome 13:54:10 06/09/06 (0)
- Hmmm - E-Stat 07:11:33 06/07/06 (20)
- Re: Hmmm - andy19191 08:38:14 06/07/06 (19)
- Part Deux - E-Stat 09:49:09 06/07/06 (18)
- Re: Part Deux - andy19191 10:19:36 06/07/06 (17)
- Interesting - E-Stat 11:12:03 06/07/06 (16)
- Re: Interesting - andy19191 12:36:30 06/07/06 (3)
- Don't need help - E-Stat 18:10:36 06/07/06 (2)
- Re: Don't need help - andy19191 04:03:42 06/09/06 (1)
- I share Wikpedia's concept of trolling - E-Stat 05:13:41 06/09/06 (0)
- He didn't just call you an a$$hole. He told the moderator you be booted out. nt - clarkjohnsen 12:02:07 06/07/06 (11)
- Aw, he's been using that mantra for some time now - E-Stat 18:34:36 06/07/06 (10)
- Hey, if they boot you off this site, you could boot them off AR. I'll bet they're quaking in their boots :) nt - Soundmind 03:41:33 06/09/06 (9)
- Who's "them" and "they"? - E-Stat 06:45:04 06/09/06 (8)
- Perhaps a point of clarification - Ted Smith 11:18:05 06/09/06 (2)
- Again, my hat's off to you - E-Stat 12:05:22 06/09/06 (1)
- Thanks, it's a thin line. [nt] - Ted Smith 13:45:43 06/09/06 (0)
- Fact; In life, there are the bootERS and the bootEES. Here you're a potential bootEE. At AR your'e a.....???? nt - Soundmind 08:45:55 06/09/06 (4)
- You speak from experience as a "bootEE" (nt) - E-Stat 10:27:17 06/09/06 (3)
- No, when the rules changed turning into a playpen for beginners, I was the first to quit (nt) - Soundmind 12:16:17 06/09/06 (2)
- I was referring to here - E-Stat 12:52:27 06/09/06 (1)
- Re: I was referring to here - Soundmind 13:53:49 06/09/06 (0)
- Smaller companys simply can't afford the facilities - Robert Hamel 04:53:56 06/07/06 (6)
- Understood - E-Stat 05:17:28 06/07/06 (5)
- And, larger companies do... - real_jj 10:20:29 06/07/06 (4)
- Harman was one of the four companies Pat already mentioned - E-Stat 10:26:52 06/07/06 (3)
- WeCo is gone. - real_jj 10:29:26 06/07/06 (2)
- You are mistaken - E-Stat 10:47:00 06/07/06 (1)
- No, they sold the name... - real_jj 11:38:41 06/07/06 (0)
- Because If The Audio Manufacturers Did Mention DBTs..... - Todd Krieger 01:33:37 06/07/06 (7)
- "I still have to listen to find out." You unreasonable wretch! Why don't you listen to what we tell you? nt - clarkjohnsen 08:52:50 06/07/06 (6)
- Your most convincing arguement ever. Why don't you just go over to his house and beat it into him until he submits? nt - Soundmind 09:17:56 06/07/06 (5)
- Look up the word "facetious" (nt) - E-Stat 09:52:47 06/07/06 (4)
- Maybe he's having polarity problems today. Prozac and anger management training might help him - Soundmind 09:57:38 06/07/06 (3)
- I rather think he had a broad grin on his face as he penned that response (nt) - E-Stat 10:04:01 06/07/06 (2)
- Yes, a strange grin and his eyes bugged out wide? Maybe it's "MADNESS!" ;-) nt - Soundmind 13:20:33 06/07/06 (0)
- Yes, but sometimes it's hard to tell ... - real_jj 10:26:18 06/07/06 (0)
- Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - mls-stl 16:46:55 06/06/06 (3)
- Wouldn’t DBTs show less bias and higher standards? - Caymus 17:18:04 06/06/06 (2)
- Re: Wouldn’t DBTs show less bias and higher standards? - mls-stl 18:30:24 06/06/06 (1)
- "Wine and audio? Nope, two completely different beasts." Except insofar as... - clarkjohnsen 08:12:25 06/08/06 (0)
- More than just a couple speaker manufactuers . . . - Pat D 16:41:15 06/06/06 (2)
- Of the six you mentioned, two don't mention DBTs on their websites - E-Stat 20:04:37 06/06/06 (1)
- Re: Of the six you mentioned, two don't mention DBTs on their websites - Pat D 09:04:52 06/08/06 (0)
- Why do you think, E-Stat? - real_jj 12:32:36 06/06/06 (33)
- I defer to your expertise - E-Stat 14:49:54 06/06/06 (32)
- What a freaking cop out! - Dan Banquer 17:16:31 06/06/06 (4)
- Funny, that's what I thought of his response - E-Stat 05:26:24 06/07/06 (3)
- You are incapable or rational thought - Dan Banquer 05:34:52 06/07/06 (2)
- Just to think you wished me a good day yesterday - E-Stat 05:46:47 06/07/06 (1)
- Obviously, politeness is lost on you. - Dan Banquer 05:52:00 06/07/06 (0)
- Really... - real_jj 15:26:49 06/06/06 (26)
- Do you believe MPEG based lossy encoding - E-Stat 19:53:27 06/06/06 (25)
- What a curiously poorly qualified statement... - real_jj 19:55:50 06/06/06 (24)
- You mean the MPEG-2 AAC standard used with XM radio? (nt) - E-Stat 20:14:19 06/06/06 (23)
- Do you have even a trivial concept of "bit rate?? - real_jj 20:17:35 06/06/06 (22)
- Certainly - E-Stat 20:20:31 06/06/06 (21)
- Ever experimented with lossy formats??? - Robert Hamel 21:35:08 06/06/06 (0)
- Once more, please clarify your specific question - real_jj 20:39:55 06/06/06 (19)
- OK - E-Stat 05:21:44 06/07/06 (18)
- Yes. - real_jj 10:11:23 06/07/06 (17)
- Thank you - E-Stat 10:40:36 06/07/06 (16)
- Bad encoder? - mkuller 13:18:29 06/07/06 (10)
- Different animals - E-Stat 18:06:24 06/07/06 (8)
- AAC is a newer standard... - real_jj 22:18:41 06/07/06 (7)
- AAC @ 128kb/sec... - mkuller 10:38:16 06/09/06 (6)
- Tell me about it. - real_jj 10:54:37 06/09/06 (5)
- Oh, and ... - real_jj 10:56:46 06/09/06 (4)
- If I can read between the lines.... - mkuller 14:13:55 06/09/06 (3)
- Well, I am not allowed to comment on that particular issue. - real_jj 16:32:23 06/09/06 (2)
- Which encoder program do you use for your iPod? (nt) - mkuller 11:43:05 06/11/06 (1)
- Don't own one. (really!) - real_jj 20:46:48 06/11/06 (0)
- Anyone (or just about anyone) can MAKE an encoder... - real_jj 14:13:12 06/07/06 (0)
- There we agree... - real_jj 11:43:04 06/07/06 (4)
- Interesting read - highly recommended - E-Stat 18:53:55 06/07/06 (3)
- Well you notice... - real_jj 14:24:55 06/08/06 (2)
- You did rather emphasize that point - E-Stat 20:18:49 06/08/06 (1)
- Your EQ is probably ok, since you're correcting TO flat, as opposed to away from it... - real_jj 20:34:58 06/08/06 (0)
- I think Shel Silverstein put it best when he said... - andy_c 11:47:07 06/06/06 (0)
- Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - tomservo 11:37:47 06/06/06 (15)
- Telling the truth won't win you many friends around this place - Soundmind 19:25:18 06/06/06 (0)
- Re: Since DBTs are so great, why then do precious few audio manufacturers ever mention them? - Dan Banquer 11:50:59 06/06/06 (10)
- Do you actually *know* anyone - E-Stat 11:53:53 06/06/06 (9)
- Re: Do you actually *know* anyone - Dan Banquer 11:59:05 06/06/06 (8)
- Sorry to hear that - E-Stat 12:10:16 06/06/06 (7)
- They got there whole this time, I hope? - real_jj 12:25:00 06/06/06 (2)
- Yes, thank you! - E-Stat 12:42:48 06/06/06 (1)
- Heh... - real_jj 13:15:38 06/06/06 (0)
- Wow! You've been in Hibernation for more than 30 years! nt - Dan Banquer 12:12:27 06/06/06 (3)
- Georgia, not Hibernation (nt) - E-Stat 14:12:01 06/06/06 (2)
- Hiber(nia) Nation? - real_jj 16:13:57 06/06/06 (1)
- Nah - E-Stat 06:20:49 06/07/06 (0)
- Exactly - E-Stat 11:48:41 06/06/06 (2)
- Re: Exactly - tomservo 12:43:58 06/06/06 (1)
- You have again stated my point - E-Stat 20:28:16 06/06/06 (0)
Follow Ups
- Re: I've seen a lot of reviews of tube amps with a high output impedance. - Tom Dawson 19:47:30 06/12/06 (0)
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