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I'm moving soon and need some help choosing the amps that will be the best fit. I've never owned an SET amp. I've had 6BQ5, EL84 and EL34 amps, push pull transistor, hybrid class A/ICE, and chip amps.
My new room will have corner speakers and amps. I picked SET friendly Audio Note J speakers. They are 93db, 6 ohm speakers, never go below 5 ohms, 7 watt minimum to 100 watt maximum power. Room is 15.4 x 12.8 feet. Listening position 2.5 meters from speakers. Calculators show 20 watt amp needed. A 10 watt Audio Note PP amp seems to be the most common amp sold with this speaker. I tested the speakers with an 8 wpc chip amp, fine at low volume, mush at higher volume, but this testing was done in a much larger room, 10,000 cubic feet.
The main goal is good performance on full orchestral without using a sub. The port is tuned to 29hz. I like detail and textured bass. I play most anything but fusion jazz and mid-sized classical pieces are my favorites.
The budget is up to $3000 completed. New or used, DIY or needing refurbishing - what do you recommend?.
Follow Ups:
If you were to build a no-compromise SET right from the design board, you might want to:
1. Use only DHTs right through, like 26, 01A, 4P1L, 10Y, 2a3, 300b etc
2. Use filament bias to get rid of cathode bypass caps
3. Use either good quality interstages/plate chokes or gyrators
4. Use an amorphous core OPT
For all the above, reference the European Triode Festival, Bartola Valves and Vinylsavor websites etc. for scratch builds.
To me as a builder, commercial amps with very few exceptions don't come close to the above, and when they do they cost big, big money. It's really a builders market here if you want the top tier designs with no compromises.
A no compromise SET would limit you to 2 stages MAXIMUM, NO coupling devices of ANY kind (direct coupling), NO filament bias (a source of distortion injection), fast, clean low-DCR power supply, heavy silver wiring throughout, brass tripod mounting of all iron components.Output transformer designed for maximum transfer efficiency and overall performance, with NO preconceived nation or theories about what type sounds best. This is determined by ACTUAL PERFORMANCE of the installed component, not somebody's personal transformer ideals.
Three dimensional internal wiring, with NO wires bundled together for "neatness"-- ALL of them have to be SEPARATED from anyything else, and any wires that cross each other must be at right-angles, and vertically separated as well. Physical separation of all mounted and suspended components is a simple necessity.
-Dennis-
Edits: 09/02/17
"NO filament bias (a source of distortion injection)."
I wonder what is rationale for this comment?. Injection from where?.
Shunting the filament current through the bias resistor and reducing impedance from filament return wrt signal common, reduction in Rp as a result, and no longer need for Ck bypass in cathode circuit has resulted in a clear improvement to me.
Can I ask - have you built an all DHT amp, I suspect you have. But your comments confuse me.
If you decide to respond, please respond to the actual question in response from filament bias being a source of distortion injection.
Respectfully,
Shane
Maybe we better define filament bias-- what supplies the bias
voltage in your example? Then one could comment...Also, are you aware of the tremendous sonic benefits of self-bias
VS fixed bias?No fixed bias amp has ever reproduced music in a convincing fashion because the bias doesn't vary according to musical demand.
All fixed bias amps sound to me exactly that-- FIXED, not effortlessly flowing as the music is changing.
IF your idea of filament bias includes a power supply for the filament bias, then that power supply is a distortion injection machine, and those effects are easily audible on Hi-Eff speakers.
Biasing using a bias supply (1) doesn't follow musical change well, and (2) is commonly used by salesmen to force tubes to operate at high power,
allowing greater power-per-dollar.Since this max. power level is forced by fixed bias, tubes can be operated close to breakdown, but never go over that limit.
This is a case where more watts equals MUCH less ability to drive a
speaker that has ever-changing musical requirements.One place where old practices and texts were actually right is when
it was noticed, long ago, that self-bias amps greatly outdrive fixed bias models at up to twice the rated power. Jadis (France) took advantage of that and sold a lot of amps in America at lower watt ratings. That bias knowledge was once common, but was conveniently buried as watts-per-dollar became THE sales game.Eventually triodes lost out to pentodes, then tubes lost out to Solid-State. Why? More advertised watts cheaper. Even before solid-state, the game was afoot-- sales people were learning how to get bigger numbers out of tubes.
Self-bias simply outperform fixed bias amps, but there is a cost:
self-biasing using capacitors and a resistor demand a wide-band
capacitor response. No SINGLE capacitor is even remotely capable of providing this.And--- that is why we spend money on very carefully engineered
capacitor bypassing and tuning. It is an attempt to get capacitors
to actually work musically.Since self-bias is superior sonically, the focus falls on the
cathode-bias caps. I'm sorry, but this is the best way to get
an amplifier to talk music, and it costs money whether people
like it or not.-Dennis-
Edits: 09/03/17
Thanks for your reply Dennis.
I can see you get attacked quite a bit - but I take note that you actually have a commercial product which is by all accounts is well reviewed, and having read some of your previous history wrt theatres and studios, I have respect in my questions. I think that would be welcome to you as it seems to be overlooked, or ignored by others.
"Maybe we better define filament bias-- what supplies the bias
voltage in your example? Then one could comment..."
Sure. So for example I have a direct heated input stage which sets up at 110V plate, 3mA Ip and around -4.5Vg. Rp is ~10k. If is 250mA, give or take.
With cathode bias, the Rk would need to be 1500 ohms and (at least in my application) require a bypass condenser.
Being direct heated, I choose DC heating using a commercial kit which does its best to present high impedance to the filament so that the AC signal does not come from, or enter into (conventional vs actual current flow) the DC filament supply.
What that enables is the filament current to be shunted through the bias resistor, so from 3mA it is now 253mA.. and a ~20 ohm 12W resistor suffices.
I hope this answers your question and perhaps is different from what you were thinking.
FWIW though, I have heard some pretty good Japanese amplifiers which run a more traditional fixed bias output stage.. but there is probably more in their recipe than a -ve supply for the output stage (or split supply to the driver in their case as it is).
Respectfully,
Shane
PS. Actually would you mind sending me a PM via the Audio Asylum system (if it works that way). I'd rather learn something that I can use rather than get all emotional and throw the opportunity away.
Thanks.
Filament bias isn't an "attempt to get more power" - that's fixed bias in the old-world sense where it was used for output tubes.
The modern usage is for DHTs, usually but not exclusively in the input section(s). The modern implementation uses sophisticated solid state circuits like Rod Coleman regs (now version 7) and choke input filament supplies. This is not trivial engineering - it's been very well thought out and has a LOT of users around the world.
I'm not particularly surprised you don't understand the sonic benefits since
1. You don't use DHTs in the input section
2. You believe that cathode bypass caps are an acceptable alternative. I don't, and I've tested plenty.
Since you can't do a direct comparison, it's pretty meaningless trying to compare the sonic results.
Honest observations, but cathode bias CAN be done right.
This does avoid installing chips designed by geniuses.
It's no longer a tube amplifier if solid state devices
are used in the amp, it's a hybrid.
Sonically, I prefer the sound of a vacuum tube acting
alone-- with no devices or control devices attached to
it, even if that's another vacuum tube.
The good thing about cathode bias is that you're using
only passive devices on the cathode. The "bad"
(as in expensive) thing about it is that it
requires multiples of expensive caps, no one cap
can even begin to work at the highest audio performance
levels. Also, the cathode resistor had better be the
world's best resistor. (Tiny audio currents thru the
resistor not withstanding).
I appreciate your comments and I always enjoy learning
from other worlds.
-Dennis-
"It's no longer a tube amplifier if solid state devices
are used in the amp, it's a hybrid."
That's not how a hybrid is defined.
If the solid state devices modify or directly influence the signal path, it's a hybrid. I'll add that the difference between a MOSFET that is obvious in its role of amplifying the signal and one that appears to reject the signal (such as occurs with a CCS) is illusion only.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
so you can sensibly use SS stuff when you want to.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
That would appear to be a definition that is only accepted/proposed here.
Cracks me up to look at AA for the first time in maybe a year, and still nothing has changed since 2010. Some poor guy asks for some advice on components and we see the thread deteriorate rapidly into a sort of audio theory acid trip.
To the OP, a rule of thumb that has been used to pretty good effect is you want to be able to hit roughly 102dB peaks. That's instantaneous peaks, not average listening level. The industry standard (recording industry, not audiophile jewelry industry) average listening level is around 82dB, the 102dB is a headroom allowance. Not everyone listens at that 82 dB average level, but it's a good starting point for most as much over 85dB average can cause hearing damage with extended exposure. This implies that you can do the job with a 93dB sensitivity speaker and an 8W 300B amp. Saying things like the falloff at a distance greater than 1M negates the utility of the 1M loudness level figure in a large room shows a lack of practical experience. The reverberant field in the room dominates at mid field listening distances and thus one can pretty much use the 1M distance loudness figure to determine required power at the listening distance unless your system is sitting on the top of a mountain. My experience has been that this approach works quite well.
All of this of course hinges upon how honest the loudspeaker manufacturer is about the sensitivity of their speaker. Suffice it to say I think it is worth questioning a lot of the published specs.
when working out whether my amp will have enough juice. PJ has shared it a few times times in the past.
Yes, an acid trip is right. I mostly stay out of it these days... Where else is there to go? DIYaudio is worse; other non-commercial forums are either not technical enough or just plain goofy.
I generally like it here, but I miss some of the old contributors and wish that threads stayed within a yell of being on topic (yes, I'm guilty as well).
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Yes we need Steve Eddie and more of the old timers on here back :)
fun reading for sure
Lawrence
Yes, now if you use a tube rectifier with a high voltage mosfet amp, Audio Asylum declares that it's a hybrid!
I totally agree on parts quality in simple circuits like we use - everything counts. I do constant cathode resistor tests and sometimes get surprising results, like Russian ex-military parts. I don't use bypasses so no issues there.
I've come to value the solid state stuff I use. Regretfully I can't design it - I just know tube circuits. But I do know smart guys who can do all the clever stuff, and some of it is very clever indeed and quite innovative. For me DHTs and solid state are where it's at right now, though I confess that my input tube right now uses a plate choke. Whatever sounds best!
Solid state engineering has continued to progress,
and devices get better and better.
Most solid state amps sound different than most tube
amps, but nearly all of both can often leave you cheated
when it comes to listening to music.
One company that I never tire of is Berkeley Audio Design,
and Spectral. These guys often work together. The older
reference to these guys was Pacific Microsonics.
I continue to admire Bob and Phil at Lynx Studio Technology.
Bob is mostly engineer, Phil is mostly applications, but
both of them often wear both hats.
And Hats Off to both of them, them, I say!
-Dennis-
Again you are off topic and not helpful.
"No fixed bias amp has ever reproduced music in a convincing fashion because the bias doesn't vary according to musical demand."
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It sound like you think that the bias in a self-biased circuit does vary according to musical demand?
Dennis, let me ask you one simple question.
Does the "musical demand" (signal AC) flow through the cathode resistor in a self-biased circuit?
Dennis, this is a yes or no question.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Yes, it does, some of it. Some signal goes thru the resistor,
much of it through the capacitors.. The caps, of course
conduct mostly A.C. Any D.C. component through them is
due to capacitor leakage.The cathode resistor conducts both A.C.(signal) and D.C.,
and it generates artifacts concerning both. Not only does
the capacitor conduct signal, but it is also a filter in
that it shunts the resistor concerning the part of the
A.C. signal that is flowing thru the resistor.What you have here is two signal conducting devices--
the resistor and the caps-- the resistor conducts most
of the D.C., and plenty of A.C., and the caps conduct
nearly all A.C.It's a small composite SYSTEM.
Each component has a profound effect on the sound
qualities of the tube's plate and cathode signals.-Dennis-
Edits: 09/03/17 09/03/17
"Yes, it does, some of it. Some signal goes thru the resistor"Sure, some of it does.
let's say you have a 1000 ohm cathode resistor and a 100uf bypass cap.
What portion of a 1000Hz AC signal flows through the resistor?
Let's do the math.
The reactance of the cap at 1000Hz is 1.592 ohms.
So you have a 1000 ohm resistor shunted by a 1.592 ohm resistor.
Let's just pick .1 volts AC at the cathode,
62.814ma flowing through the cap1 / 1.592 = .062814 amps
And .1ma flowing through the resistor.
1 / 1000 = .0001 amps
"Each component has a profound effect on the sound qualities
of the tube's plate and cathode signals. "So you are saying that the cathode resistor that is conducting less than 1/628th of the total AC current at 1000Hz has a profound effect on what the 1000Hz AC signal will sound like? Get real Dennis.
Maybe at lower frequencies where the reactance of the cap is higher but the whole point of a bypass cap is to make it's value is such that the reactance at the lowest frequency of interest is a small fraction of the value of the cathode resistor.*
I'm sure in your design (where the cathode by pass cap is too small) the resistor does carry a lot of low frequency AC (a lot more than it should) and that resistor does make a profound effect on the sound but that's only because your design is flawed.
If you let too much (anything more than a tiny fraction) of the AC flow through the resistor instead of the cap then the bias will change.
That means you will have negative current feedback applied to your output tube and it's plate resistance will increase and the load line will rotate towards the vertical and that will cause an increase of the harmonic distortion as well as a loss of damping factor. (And none of that has anything to do with the sonic properties of the resistor used.)
but you knew all that, right Dennis?
* note, it's really the value of the cathode resistor in parallel with the impedance of the cathode but that discussion is for a different time.P.S. I hope everyone will excuse me for calling 1/628th "none". In my defense, it is very close to none.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 09/03/17 09/03/17
How about comparing that current( the nearly none )to the driver plate current. The percentage is now significant...LOL
All in all, I think *ALL* folks interested in a SE amp should buy one of Dennis-es amps. Wishing you a multitude of sales Dennis!!!
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I like my flawed design.
It certainly has a way with music, it
almost never fails or suffers any kind of
breakdown, and some people consider it an
example of Industrial Art, and are collecting
them!
There is, of course, a certain hazard in
playing with this kind of equipment when
married: If you are listening to music
because you are enthralled by it, instead
of listening to the "Honey-Do" list--
especially-- then you may indeed see this
design as flawed, when marital distress
occurs!
I do like it, however. I'm proud of it!
-Dennis-
As Tre says: "honest"... and demonstrates a quiet strength absent in the strongly-worded machismo commonly posted here.
Despite my criticism of (your) absolutist posts/ stance and question your technical explanations at times, I respect your passion, uncompromising experimentation, and unwillingness to be boxed in by expert opinion and traditional methods. I'd like to meet you some day and listen to your system.
Take care.
Cheers,
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Got a ticket to Denver?
RMAF 2017, Room 3017.
-Dennis-
Unfortunately not. The flight from Australia's East Coast is brutal.
Cheers,
91
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
WHAT a MESS!
-Dennis-
Dennis, you only see what I posted as being a "MESS" because it's over your head (over your level of understanding).You didn't understand a thing I said.
Read a book. This stuff is not that complicated. You can learn to understand it if you try.
I believe this would help you in the long run.
You could build a circuit the right way (technically speaking) and if you don't like the way it sounds you could then "tweak" it to get the sound you like instead of just doing the whole thing experimentally.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 09/04/17
I wouldn't bother trying to argue his points. There's plenty of measurable evidence that contradicts several of his claims. Claiming that filament bias "injects distortion" is something that could easily be proven with a few hours of basic measurements, but why do that when you can just claim to be the omniscient SET authority!
I don't understand why the "Bored" puts up with him.
It's one thing for a person to have an opinion on how this or that circuit sounds but Dennis has made so many proclamations on technical matters that are patently false.
I can't decide if he is really that ignorant or if he's just playing a game for financial gain.
Thanks for the input CB.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Maybe the Bored would like to answer your inquiry?
the ac does not flow through the cathode resistor.It flow through the bypass cap that has a very low reactance to all frequencies of interest if it's the right uf value.
Therefore the bias DOES NOT vary "according to musical demand".
What did you think the bypass cap was for other than holding the bias steady?
That is the sole purpose of a cathode bypass cap.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 09/03/17
That's PART of the story-- the caps certainly steady
the voltage.That's not all there is to it by a long shot!
You have to get an amplifier to accurately track music.
In order to do that, you have to think outside the box
on many areas of concern.You're firmly grounded inside the BOX!
Things must be very comfortable in there...
Theories are changed as performance increases-- in
all areas of human endeavor.I use, invent, or learn what I need to get that
performance. I DISCARD any theory that
doesn't deliver the goods.-Dennis
Edits: 09/03/17
"the caps certainly steady
the voltage."
I thought you said that in a self-biased the bias varies according to musical demand.
When you said "No fixed bias amp has ever reproduced music in a convincing fashion because the bias doesn't vary according to musical demand." is that not the same as saying that in a self-biased circuit the bias does vary with the musical demand?
Which is it Dennis?
Does the bias stay steady or does the bias vary in a self-biased design?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Things that happen simultaneously in degrees aren't
well explained with absolutist calculations.
As usual, I will be going by actual performance.
Theory does come in, but ONLY when IT CONTRIBUTES.
-Dennis-
"Things that happen simultaneously in degrees aren't
well explained with absolutist calculations."Yes they are.
As the frequency falls the reactance of the capacitor increases and more of the total current flows through the resistor.
If we want 20Hz to flow only through the cap (and not cause current feedback to be applied to the tube) then we design the filter so that it's -3db point is a decade below 20Hz.
With a -3db point of 2Hz the phase and amplitude will be back to flat by 20Hz and virtually no AC will be flowing through the resistor.
What is the -3db point of the filter created by the (cathode resistor in parallel with the cathode impedance) and the value you picked for your cathode bypass cap.
If you give me the numbers I can show you how much of the AC is going through the resistor at any frequency you're interested in.
I can even tell you how much negative current feedback you are applying to the output tube at any frequency you're interested in and how much that increased the output tube's plate resistance and what that does to the damping factor of the amplifier.
All of these complex situations are easily explained with absolutist calculations.
BTW whether you know it or not it's that local current feedback that gives you the sound you are looking for. Your circuit design is technically wrong but you won't admit that. The fact is you're just building for a sound, an effect.
That's OK, we probably all do but most of us admit to it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 09/04/17 09/04/17
as it is clearly better than the others...and by a long chalk.
Was LMAO a bit, we now have Energy Conservation being abused along with Transfer Efficiency...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
speaking of Transfer eff, its a real phenomenon in that a tube driver uses a IT and good transfer eff is VERY important.
you could also apply this to the output transformer too :)
Lawrence
I understand your faith in being able to
calculate anything you want.
I don't tweak, period. I listen to the best
recordings available on the best equipment available.
I have owned movie theatres, and have designed and built
many a Stadium Theatre. Most theatres have bad sound--
but not very bad-- if the owners keep up with maintenance.
I have, over the years, enjoyed hearing and measuring
and observing in theatres, what it takes to totally
involve people in the presentation, and take the sound
system out of the equation-- make it so good that no one
notices it-- just what is happening.
My standard for HOME playback is the sound that is
factory encoded on L.P.'s, CD's, and on-line
Hi-Resolution downloads.
This is compared to studio master recordings, and
also to the systems that competitors have at audio
shows, and to people's own home systems.
I ask an amplifier to play back any and all of
these sources with verbatim accuracy-- at the point
that counts-- the speaker or headphone interface to
the listener..
I have found over the years, several solid state
amplifiers that will do this very well.
In order to have vacuum tubes do the same thing
well, the tube amp had to be condensed into a form
that would do this simply because all the other
tube amps I have applied, or heard-- have fallen
woefully short.
I haven't mentioned this lately on a forum, so
I'll just repeat it here: I NEVER build anything
unless I HAVE TO. I MUCH prefer to BUY it.
In the case of vacuum tube amplifiers, the
existing technology and construction methods
were absolutely hopeless. So, I FIXED that
problem. And, FIXED it is!
It's too bad that it's so controversial with you.
Actually, all it is is energy conservation applied
at every level, and superior layout and construction
methods, coupled with the use of really good parts.
Circuit operating values are super conservative
because I don't like the sound of stressed vacuum
tubes that every other tube amp I ever heard displays,
if played on large radiating area, point-source,
speakers that are over 100db/watt efficiency. The
GOOD amps-- including a few over 200 watt solid state
models, will play well on such speakers.
Nearly all tube amps that have been, or are being
built fall short in many ways.
If you're a modifier, you can rescue some older tube
amps by lowering voltages and currents, using better
parts, mounting iron on brass standoffs, and re-wiring
the whole thing..
If you do that, you're still coming up a bit short--
but much better--, so why not just start over and
design something that is sure to work?
It does!
-Dennis-
I think it depends on whether the foil hat is on or off.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Dennis I think people would be more inclined if you explained more about exactly what determines a good OPT instead of just saying what you say about very colorful words but not much to go on, please elaborate did you give mikey specifications for your outputs? or did you give general specifications? IMO the best of the best would be Torroidal OPT there transfer characteristics cannot be beat!. this is all elementary my dear dennis :)
Looking forward to hearing your system at RMA fest
Lawrence
Hi Lawrence!
Believe it or not, it's all specific to your needs.
Mikey and I have been sharing ideas and tech for a few years--
he has been so kind as to wind some things for me that no one,
including Mike really thought made total sense. Mike is brilliant
and thinks along with the user, and can get things made that are way
out there-- if needed.
You might say the gentleman let me have what I wanted-- within
practical limitations, of course.
Toroidals are good for total efficiency and bandwidth, but do have
some overlay/winding issues that you may or may not wish to listen to.
The best push/pulls I've listened to had toroidals. It's possibly
the ability of a p/p circuit to cancel-out some distortions that allow
good overall performance at the speaker. With SET, not always so much so.
I have some "R" cores in stock, and am evaluating them. I started with 10 units-- we'll see if I continue with them. So far, (this is a SET)
Highs have been stellar-- very extended and very low distortion. Midrange
rivals my custom Maggies, bottom end is clean, but not as extended as
with the Maggies. More break-in is required on the test amps before I
will know anything. I evaluate transformers normally at 1000, 1600, and 2500 hour points.
This is accumulated time, not continuous operation. Leaving an amp
running doesn't offer good break-in. On and off cycles DO, but run times should be an hour or more-- best is 4 hour runs, playing everything you like at normal levels, and louder as you desire.
These are just general observations and cannot be considered Gospel.
My take on your post is that one can get a great output transformer in any of these build methods. It depends much more on who winds it, and what
his standards and materials are.
Denver's coming up on Oct. 6, 7, and 8, so I'm going to be less on
here. RMAF 2017 looks like fun, so I will do it in Room 3017.
See 'ya, Lawrence!
-Dennis-
Dennis, will you be viewing a record system this year at RMA?
Lawrence
Yes. I will have vinyl L.P.'s, computer audio and can directly play a CD on the Pioneer Blu-Ray deck, their flagship-- model BDP-88FD.
In case this deck is used, the SPDIF signal is routed to my Aplha-DAC2 D/A converter-- just the same as is our Windows 7 computer library, using JRIVER protocol.
I LOVE this new Pioneer toy. Best Blu-Ray and DVD picture I ever got, and very good audio. The unit has its own D/A converter which I don't use because I have the Berkeley DAC, but it is very good. You just drive
into a passive attenuator via RCA jacks, and then into your amps.
RMAF 2017 is Oct. 6, 7, and 8 and I'm in Room 3017.
-Dennis-
Very Kool, I have some pipe organ records and some stuff to put to "THE" test :)
Jeff speaks very highly of your stuff :) can't wait to hear it all!
Oh BTW R-core is kinda close to torroids but with more Loss! because of the split winding like lundahl, and less bandwidth. Single ended is tricky I get that :)
seeya soon
Lawrence
Hi Lawrence. Look me up when you're there-- I'd love to meet you.Most demo rooms have 1 or 2 guys and live in that room for 3 days.
We really try to get out and about and hear all the other guy's rigs,
remember that these folks put hard work into their demos, and it's
good for them to get a visit from at least one of us who is a DIY person, and is ALSO Commercial.That means we take turns running the room. To see any one of us, just tell the guys there, and they'll cell-phone the guy you wish to see.
My vinyl rig uses a direct-drive TT, a Clearaudio Maestro Ebony V-2-- their top medium-output cart., and I have hard-wired the tonearm interconnect (Cardas Silver) to run all the way to the Phono stage with NO RCA jacks.
This was necessary to get L.P. records to perform with Hi-Res digital.
They can do it, and slightly better, but only a few L.P.'s are really that good.The ones I like best are RCA's, Deccas, and Warner Bros., and especially Ranwood and Monument, Longines Symphonette, and Reader's Digest recordings. I have a good MCA/Longines of some Lawrence Welk material that is a good example of how to record right.
As you can see, with me, the "audiophile" stuff is missing. And I sure don't miss it!
There's lots more, of course!
I'm very busy right now, getting ready for Denver and doing the many Summer chores around here, and in a neighboring city where we have
rental spaces to keep up.I won't be getting technical with anyone on the forum if it involves playing internet chess-- or thinking too much until life settles down after RMAF 2017.
Actually. what I really like is DOING. Theories on anything and everything abound, and anything that even slightly worked in the past quickly becomes "textbook accuracy", and is taught and obeyed to the letter.. It seems perfect because its proponents have developed the mathematics and proofs needed to sell it, until the next theory shoves it aside, and develops its own math and proponents.
It's History at work. Theories and their proofs only interest me if I need them. If I do, then I will listen to any and all on the subject at
hand... I can learn a lot from anyone, past or present. If I NEED to for a GOOD reason-- that is truly WORTH THE PRECIOUS T I M E involved..Life does limit one's time, so what needs attention and pays for it, and makes it truly useful gets the attention.
I look forward to finally meeting you just for fun!!
-Dennis-
Edits: 09/02/17
I don't think there'd be unanimous agreement with your priorities in a "no compromise" design.
Dennis has already given his own menu for high end sound - very different from us in the all-DHT crowd I belong to. And others will have their particular menus as well.
But it still remains a fact that the "boutique" high end low-volume builds are very expensive compared to the costs of building your own. Especially when you want to specify stuff like amorphous core OPTS.
So my point is that commercial amps fall behind DIY builds in a cost-for-cost comparison. Partly, of course, because of the overheads in getting the amps out to the customer.
You have that right-- it makes sense.The better answer is that DIY people in general often think that
they can out-engineer the engineers at Commercial venues, or can
buy parts cheaper than they can. Both are often untrue.What the DIY person can do is decide what he really wants, and
then attack that in his own preferred way.While I respect this very much and have done a lot of it myself,
eventually you will want the best that can be built.Now, whether you're doing pure DIY, part DIY/Commercial,
or ALL Commercial, you will run into reality:
GOOD costs MONEY!NOT wasted money, but money that you HAVE to spend-- if you want
the performance.DIY people have two advantages, and only these two: (1) their
labor is free- to them, that is. How much it costs their wives
and friends remains to be seen. (2) DIY does not have to be
shipped, guaranteed, or lose money playing around with SOME
(only a few, usually) customers who are idiots, equipment
destroyers, cheats, or dunces at packing and shipping
electronics-- or in understanding how they work,
or how to build a good music system around them.Some people can take THE BEST audio equipment,
and get BAD sound! Manufacturers secretly hate these
idiots because they often smear good products to their
friends or the public.All of this costs money-- the DIY person can usually
avoid all this.BUT-- does the best DIY compare to the best commercial?
Sorry, but I've never heard that happen-- ever.-Dennis-
Edits: 09/02/17 09/02/17 09/02/17
This was well said. I would add a point or two about DIY:
First - there is DIY bias that "because I built it it sounds better" and because "I bought a part that seems more sophisticated/better/heavier it sounds better" - the latter has not been the case IME. I have heard DIY speakers and amp that cost the same to the consumer as a finished product with arguably lesser parts quality that nevertheless sounded better to a lot better than the DIY.
To be fair I did hear an absolutely jaw dropping great DIY system in HK but it still cost the fellow $50,000US to DIY his product. So while tremendous it wasn't exactly cheap.
Second: Resale value is next to nothing in comparison to production products. I continually beat the drum over net cost. Ultimately NET cost is your overall cost so when you compare say a $5k DIY project that you can only sell for $500 - you don't compare that to a $5k production product. You may have to compare it to an $18,000 production unit that you can sell for $13,500. The costs for both are $4,500. This is the sort of cost to cost value that people should be making when the look to these things.
I do agree one of the big pluses to DIY may be that you can sort of build something to your individual desires - but then often I read DIYers having to "choose" their transformers or capacitors from a given manufacturer. Is the DIYer winding and building his own originally designed transformer for the given job or buying one from XYZ and are they designing and building their own capacitors and resistors and solder wire or are they going to parts express and buying Mundorfs?
Lastly, one of the advantages for some DIYers or people who just buy very rare hard to audition products is that there is no recourse in forum banter.
They own a product that no one else can hear so they come onto a forum and say - hey XYZ is vastly superior to "enter any product sold as a retail item) and there is no way to audition and make that comparison for yourself. There was a guy called soundmind on these forums who modified Bose 901 speakers and told everyone that every production speaker was total crap and only his DIY product sounded good. So where is the recourse? No one can audition it and prove him wrong or at least disagree with him.
Many of the SET making companies are DIY at heart anyway - They are building and designing products but they do have a team of people usually and they crosscheck with other products on the market. I know Peter Q at Audio Note buys up some of the top competition on the market at very high prices to listen and hear what they are doing. Not every company does that but it is being done.
In fact some of the DIYers our there should build their best amplifier and lend it to Peter and let him and their team of engineers listen to the product (or other SET manufacturers). He has hired people based on their efforts and chances are you will get paid more than whatever it is you're doing now.
Jobs are out there if you're product truly stands up to manufactured products.
Yours is a great and welcome understanding of the
whole affair.
All I can say to you and others is-- if you can,
attend RMAF 2017. It gets better as time flies by--
I look forward to hearing some great systems there
this year.
RMAF 2017 is in Denver's Marriott Tech Center Hotel
on Oct. 6, 7, and 8.
-Dennis-
LASTLY, the enjoyment derived from building the bloody thing yourself and then, just enjoying THE music.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
It is also, solving the engineering problems to actually do better. What causes the shortfalls with the usual way? How to solve them w/o introducing others. It is a fine sport.
Unlike a Salesman, I have no issue saying that I find something else better...at that point it is time to re-examine how it was done, and then top it. Have not had so much difficulty with it. I also have not built so much of late...:)
Guess maybe I'll try power triodes with grid current this time...and yes, I will run right up close to its plate ratings, because if I don't they don't last as long. Or sound as good.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Sure, there are some DIYers and builds like that, some that are not and some with a few of those traits.
Your opinions re DIY serve your role as a reviewer well.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Actually I am fortunate enough to work at a magazine that gives me pretty open autonomy to review whatever I wish - so if someone wishes to send me a DIY project they feel will trounce any production product I am quite interested and my magazine would let me review it (because we don't do pay to play like other magazines).
For instance I just reviewed King's KingKo KA-101 which is his personal project trying to make an affordable amp that sounds good and does a lot of things. This is a one man operation. Essentially he designed and built the thing from the ground up using his Chinese contacts to put his design into practice.
I review that sort of thing because IMO there is far more value in what he is selling than there is in most competing products in the mainstream at more money.
I can't praise a product that I can't hear. I have often recommended products like ANKits and Bottlehead as a money saving solution to finished products producers. Even with the speakers they sell the kit with and without the cabinet so if you can build your own cabinet you can save even more money.
A KIT I suppose would be viewed as only "partial" DIY though.
Still, your opinions re DIY serve you well as a reviewer of - by a large margin - commercial products. Your language bears this out: "...send me a DIY project they feel will trounce any production product..." Trounce? Any?
The King's KingKo KA-101 is a commercial product from a one-man company - that's not DIY in the sense we a discussing here.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
I'd love to meet you-- maybe talk a bit.
Find me in Room 3017 at RMAF 2017.
-Dennis-
Hi Dennis
Unfortunately my main career is as a teacher out here in Hong Kong - where they pay us teachers where we can afford to buy audio equipment :) unfortunately that only leaves me with a small window of holiday. So I can generally only cover audio shows during Mid July to mid August.
I was able to cover the California Audio Show in Oakland and I believe Constantine has booked it for the same time next year and I can make that show as well if the dates are in fact the same. So if you go to that show next year let me know - I should be there. Although I will not be taking the Bart alone from SFO to Oakland Coliseum at Midnight like last time!
I agree in principle Andy: "But it still remains a fact that the "boutique" high end low-volume builds are very expensive compared to the costs of building your own. Especially when you want to specify stuff like amorphous core OPTS."OTOH, some DIY builds are very expensive(!) for the quality of end product. My current project - currently held up due to custom chassis design/fabrication - started out as a moderately expensive build... but is growing into a very expensive (by my standards), plain-looking build that may very well not justify its DIY cost. Thankfully, it is about the learning, craft, enjoyment, engagement etc.
There is plenty of expensive DIY (or DIYmercial) junk out there though.
Cheers,
91
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 09/02/17
Dennis writes:
"DIY people have two advantages, and only these two: (1) their labor is free to them. How much it costs their wives and friends remains to be seen. (2) DIY does not have to be shipped or guaranteed. All of this costs money-- the DIY person can usually avoid all this."Yes, of course! And as RGA says, you have to factor in the low resale value of DIY builds if you are ever going to sell, though to counteract this the average commercial amp also has a pretty sharp falloff in value when used, even though the resale value remains intrinsically higher.
"BUT-- does the best DIY compare to the best commercial? Sorry, but I've never heard that happen-- ever."
I can well see that this would be true for you, Dennis, because your own particular theories involve a large amount of actual construction detail and layout. But in the larger DIY world where the circuit and quality of parts are the crucial factors, there is nothing to say that a really good - and tried and tested - circuit, built with high quality parts, and well constructed, will not perform to commercial standards or out-perform a number of commercial amps.
Several circuits have had many, many builds already. And the circuits - and indeed the PCBs where these are used - are constantly being uprated. A good example is the circuit I use - Bartola gyrator DHT first stage into PSE 4P1L into amorphous OPT, all in filament bias. Rod's filament regs are now in their 7th version, having been updated for well over 7 years, and the Bartola gyrator is now in version 2, or version 3 considering add-on boards. Several builds around the world and a constantly evolving blog on the Bartola website for support and user experiences. The same with Bottlehead and K&K, to name two other examples with good website, forum and user support.
RGA says, "Many of the SET making companies are DIY at heart anyway", and I'm sure this is true. Usually a talented designer or design team goes through a large number of prototypes and then decides on a build that will work commercially. But many DIY designs also - as above - go through several iterations. What they don't usually do - as Dennis points out - is have to deal with all the users (plus "idiots") who then road test the stuff and feed back any construction glitches, which is where the construction itself and any accompanying safety issues that have to be engineered in becomes important.
In theory, DIY amps can outperform commercial ones. That's the theory, and as RGA says there are a number of existing amps to prove this. In practice construction comes into it, and how important this factor is depends on the actual skill and experience of the constructor, which can vary considerably. You expect good construction from commercial amps, but in the end you still have to balance that against the theoretical and possible advantages of state of the art design and part quality. An EL34 SET amp doesn't compare with a 300b or 2a3 in my universe, and I wouldn't even stop there.
Edits: 09/03/17
Honest stuff. Kudos for your insights.
I'm getting ready for RMAF 2017, so will
be signing off here for a while.
I think you will enjoy RMAF this year--
it looks competitive like never before--
it should have good sound in several
demo rooms.
-Dennis-
93dB is hardly High Efficiency, so not ideal for low powered SETs. However, an SET with beefy output valves such as 845 will provide plenty of power.
I have Consonance Cyber 845 mono amps and they are rated at 28 watts, so plenty for most speakers. I use them with my Avantgarde horns (102 dB) but have tried them with Quad 2905 electrostatics (86 dB) where they sound good at low volume levels, but are not suitable as a match.
They cost probably double your budget, but a used pair could probably be found within your limit. They look great too!
Review here - http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1205/consonancecyber211.htm
6 Moone also gave a glowing review to the 16 watt 211 version - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/norvinz/norvinz_2.html
A 93dB speaker is quite sensitive. 8 watts will get you to 102dB, and assuming we have something like a zero feedback SET, and 8 watt amp will be capable of peaks that are much higher!
Interesting. The Tekton Lore, depending on how you test it, is somewhere between 90db and 98db sensitivity. I am driving them with a GemTune GS-01 at 8WPC into 8 ohms, 1 EL-34B per channel. I can tell when it's getting too loud, it's either my ears or the amp but by that time the RS meter (C/Fast)is peaking into the mid-90s, so, I back off. Wisely. So, yeah, I agree, 93db is pretty sensitive these days.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Some Chinese tube amps have been found to make less than half their rated power, so that makes it even tougher to judge.
Ahh. No way to measure here. It did come with one bad driver, 6N9P. It took a little over three weeks to get a new free one from Chyna. Seems to work. Meantime, I got a pair of Tung-Sol re-issued 6SL7 from McShane and stumbled on a pair of Sylvanias, too. Not sure I can tell much diff. LOL. It's only throwing money down the rat hole of cheap amps, right?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Just as an aside to the recommendations have you seen this article on Audio Note. It may be the single best factory tour ever done and was written by reviewer Rafe Arnott (another AN E owner who also picked up the SORO SE Signature).
The video is nice because for the first time it shows part of the speaker and turntable plant in Austria. Rafe does an impressive job with the photography I must say. TH seen in the pictures is a great guy (He's my dealer in Hong Kong)- 7 minute video at the start
Andy Whittle is the LS-3/5a guru from Rogers/Celestion. He designed the AX Two and AZ series.
Great video, thanks for sharing!
A bit left field but what about a pair of Transcendent sound SET OTL monos. A pair of them costs $2500 and makes 12 watts. Unique amongst SET amps. If you can build there might not be anything better sounding and no cheap output trafo to muddy up the bass as you usually get with lower priced SET.
I looked at OTL designs and decided the power consumption would overheat my heavily insulated room. Single output tube models use less than half the power of the OTLs.
If You're going to go with AN speakers it's probably best to start with AN amplifiers since they are designed to work together. Further, unlike virtually everything else - in 5-10 years you will get your money back on them should you sell them.If you start fiddling with virtual no names, or DIY - it just becomes a tough sell and then you wind up keeping it because you can't sell it.
I liked my LM 219IA a whole lot and it sounds really wonderful but again - the US list price is $7500 and you can buy from Chinese outlets for $3500. Sure it may not be the same exact amp but then who says?
I owned the absolute best model of the 219IA as I had it upgraded to silver caps and had better casework (and the case affects the sound). So even with the absolute best sounding 219IA I still only got half what I paid.. Why? It's Chinese. It has little resale value.
To me there should also be some pride of ownership here - and when I see $15,000 MingDa amplifiers and look inside and see Rudicon instead of Rubycon (the counterfeiter was dyslexic apparently) then it's just not a product worth buying.
US companies do it too. Wadia buying cheap Chinese stuff under their name, Theta Data putting an entire Philips Machine they paid $299 for and selling it for 10 times the price and on it goes.
I generally prefer Audio Note for many reasons but one of them is I know I get the best parts for the money, the parts aren't fakes, the parts are often made by hand and by them and when something is outsourced it is typically outsourced to one of the absolute best makers of the thing being sourced like Rubycon, or SEAS.
So to me - I would just get a 10-15 year old P1SE or P2SE power amp second hand for around $1500- $2k which is probably what they sold for and be done with it. I would not get too caught up in which tube or how much power. For most people the P1SE and P2SE is good enough to be an end game product - most entry level AN stuff is that good. Their level zero stuff is killer for the money as well. I zero with CD1 DAC 0.x and AX Two speakers or AZ Two or three floorstanders. That kicks some serious butt.
One reason I have not run out and bought some pretty expensive gear is because I say to myself well does it beat an AN J and an OTO and basic CD player and cable package from them. In other words does X system beat an Audio Note level 2 system and in what ways does it beat it? At something important or some hi-fi nonsense that doesn't exist in real world live music settings?
Looking at generalities
At CAS the best 4 rooms were all Horn or High efficiency speakers. Three of the rooms use non oversampling DACs. Two used AN transport and DAC and the other a CEC transport. All computer based sources were inferior even with the same music. The exception used a $25000 4 watt 2a3 Whammerdyne amp and i had to project that it would be better with the NOS digital.Speakers and amps can't save a bad source.
Edits: 08/23/17
OTO Phono SE integrated amplifier carries an MSRP (as of October 2016) of $3,736US.Back in 2003 a buyer would have likely paid ~$2,100-2,300 depending how they negotiated. Audio Note typically comes down 10-15% from retail MSRP
A person who bought one in 2003 as I did can sell their unit for between $2,000-$2300 depending how patient they are to sell. They would get their money back, or very close or a little more.
Using inflation calculator for the US MSRP (2003 OTO was around ~$2,800 MSRP back then) in today's money would be $3,725. Which is quite close to the $3736 of so called aggressive price hiking of $11 in 15 years. So much for the ridiculous price hike argument.
This is why this is a great deal all around. The OTO owner enjoys his/her amp for 15 years and gets his money back. The second hand buyer is happy to buy a $3736 amp for $2200. AN owner loses nothing - second hand buyer loses nothing since they can enjoy the OTO for 2 years and get their money back in full as well. So BOTH the original owner pays net zero and so does the second hand buyer.
This is the same scenario with my AN J speakers back in 2003 it was around the same price as the Reference 3a MM De Capo. In 2016 I sold the AN J (I believe to the OP) and sold it for more than I paid - around $420 more than I paid. The speaker price rose both with inflation and due to a huge rise in the price of silver wiring AND AN went to a superior cabinet manufacturer using more expensive cabinet and new maker in 2009. But the point is as a CUSTOMER - I lost nothing. And neither will the second hand buyer. In fact, since I was in a hurry to sell, the second hand buyer may still make a profit as well.
Had I instead spent the same money in 2003 on the Reference 3a MM De Capo and sold it in 2016 I would have LOST ~$1500 instead of gaining $420 (a net overall loss of $1920).
The De Capo in HK second hand store was selling for $700 Canadian($550 US). I use the MM De Capo as an example because it is a speaker that has more or less the same designation over time. Both speakers have improved over time but the AN J/Spe didn't change model names at all while the De Capo has changed to MM DeCapo (i) and MM De Capo (Be). The AN J/SPe went from Russian birch front and back with an MDF wrap on the sides and top to all Russian Birch and the internal silver litz had a few strands I think from 17 to 19 strands. The cabinet also went from 13 ply to 15ply no void Russian Birch. It also added a hemp driver but the paper version is still available. The current AN J/SPE with paper woofer carries a US list price of $4,898. ($6,000 CAD)
The reason I use this as an example is because at first I thought like another poster that AN sure has raised their prices over the years. But using inflation calculators the price has been fairly tied to inflation over the years and in fact in many cases are now lower than they should be with regards to inflation depending which product.
But as an AN owner who bought brand new you tend to win. Why? the price goes up AND the model doesn't change then the second hand value will reflect it. Now, you MUST keep the thing for a long period of time - say 10 years. Obviously if you buy an M3 now you will lose but in 10 years with the cost of inflation rising and the future 2017 M3's price continues to rise and rise it very likely means when you sell it you will get at least what you paid now for it(or you will lose less than if you buy virtually any other preamp for the same money).
IF however, I buy (enter 99.99% of any other $11,000 preamp on the audio market) and look at 2027 - what will likely happen over that time is the competing company will have dropped their preamp from the line-up (either completely or come out with a new model number and designation). If either of those two things happen then you will be lucky to sell the preamp for $4,000 (you lose $7,000 (AN owner loses nothing). If the competing amplifier doesn't sell very well (or any other reason) and the company keeps it in the line and doesn't raise prices the same thing happens. If in 2027 it is still $11,000 no one will buy a used one if they can buy a new one for the same money. So you still don't get what you paid though you might get $8,000 because at least it is still a current model. But this is fairly rare.
When a model changes model numbers, names or adds versions you lose more money. An example is Paradigm - they come out with the Paradigm 100V2 and it was $2200. 3-5 years later they bring out Paradigm 100V3 and the price is $2500. (PS IMO it didn't sound as good) but it's the NEW and improved model. The V2's resale value is crushed. It's not the same speaker anymore. The perception is well the V2 needed to be improved - something must be wrong with it. So you see them for $1000 and dropping down to under $600 now with V5 and V6 out. And this is a major brand name loudspeaker.What is required is time, model numbers that don't change, and the inevitable price rise due to inflation on the newer models.
And the product has to be desirable. It helps that it is hand made, has a huge reputation, is highly regarded around the world and has extensively deep and numerous reviews (not just nice reviews but actually purchased in high numbers by reviewers).
Edits: 08/29/17 08/29/17
We did a shootout recently between three different AN models (Oto SE Signature, P1SE and Conqueror Silver) and a KR Audio VA350i on a pair of Odeon Rigoletto/2 loudspeakers. An Einstein "The Tube" preamp was used on all amps except the Oto SE Signature becuase it is an integrated (KR uses only a passive pre so volume was set to maximum and it is essentially a power amp with switching). The source was a Lampizator Golden Atlantic being fed by USB using Roon and HQPlayer. Cables were Goertz silver foil RCAs and NBS Monitor IV XLR interconnects. Speaker cables were Goertz AG-1 silver foil.
The results were as follows:
The Conqueror sounds warm and pleasant but quite wooly and indistinct in the bass. Foreground has nice 3d but sense of space is truncated compared to other amps on test. The output transformers are, despite being double C core, are quite small on this model for some reason and are for sure limiting its potential. Great at one or two things but poor in other areas leaves a very uneven listening experience. This amp seems to be poor value. I would much rather have a VAC 30/30 Class A 300B PP amp than this amp.
P1SE similar character in some ways to the Conqueror but less syrupy and a bit more taught in the bass. Reasonable but not exceptional resolution and detail. Soundstage and imaging less palpable than Conqueror but not quite as truncated. Mediocre all around...maybe fine at $1000 but a PureSound A30 will give it a run for the money even though it is PP and not SET.
The Oto SE Signature is something more interesting. First, it has tight, well defined bass from obviously superior output transformers from the other two AN amps on test. It also carves out a wide and deep soundstage with good resolution and extended high frequencies...I can imagine this is a significant upgrade over the non-signature Oto, which is essentially the P1SE mentioned above. The only thing that left a bit of a question mark is the tonal balance, which was slightly lean overall. Not bad but also not quite right. Imaging was also quite palpable and overall resolution was high. For the asking price this is only one of the three AN amps that I would recommend to audition against similarly priced competition.
You can forget, however, it being competitive with the likes of the KR Audio, which out resolves the Oto, out performs it in the low end, outperforms it for Soundstage resolution and imaging precision and palpability and outperforms it for dynamics. Tonality of the KR is better balanced overall as well. Now the KR VA350i is over $12K so it should do better.
An interesting comparison is with the Ayon 300B (early 2000s model), using 32B output tubes. This was about 7.5K new (1.8K used). That on the same system had significantly better tone than Oto Signature but the bass was inferior but better than Conqueror...again I put it down to the output transformers, which are not so big on the Ayon 300B. Overall, Oto is competitive here but not clearly ahead.
With the Crossfire III the results are similar to KR. Better everything and perhaps even more transparent than KR. Bass is very solid and resolved right up the whole frequency range. (Crossfire is 45Kg...a full 15 more than the Ayon 300B and most of that is in the output iron...and 9Kg more than KR). Transparency is world class. Dynamics are superb. An award winning amp and rightly so.
Finally, the JJ322. This amp has huge Double C core output trannies for what is only a 20 watt amp. Not quite as transparent as Crossfire but close. Softer highs well resolved bass with decent impact and very nice soundstage and imaging capabilities. Dynamics are good on high sensitivity speakers but not so great on normal dynamic speakers. Great for 93db and up. Can be found for only about $2K used and is a hell of a lot of amp for the money.
So, other than maybe the Oto SE Signature, I would not recommend any AN amps for under 3K. The Quest would be interesting but only as a Silver Signature version and that costs quite a lot and would have a tough time against the Crossfire or KR (see review in TNT on original Crossfire and what he says about it vs. Quest).
LM219ia is a good amp...almost bought one but got Wall monos instead (then Crossfire). LM219ia is good, a bit warm but powerful sounding. Not super resolved but pretty nice. Crossfire is far more resolving. Still, I can understand why someone would want LM219ia. I would actually be more interested in the LM210 300B amp. I would never pay the full retail for them given the drop in value...this is true for most hifi though and not just chinese stuff.
Found it useful.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
The AN SORO SE Signature is a whole different beast than the AN OTO SE Signature. It sports paralleled 5881/6L6GB utput tubes and puts out about 18W. It's a pretty rare beast and quite expensive, just like the OTO SE Sig. The far less expensive P2 SE and PP power amps, lack the refinement of the SORO SE Sig, but they are both fine amps at reasonable prices.
That could be an interesting amp, I agree. Like I said, of the three AN amps on test to me the Oto Signature was clearly the best overall. It wasn't tonally lush by any means but it was also not threadbare. Transparency was excellent and dynamics were solid.
I am not so sure about the value of the level 1 AN gear. The zero gear seems like good value because it is actually quite cheap. The level 1 gear is already not so cheap and I think has tough competition from the chinese.
The thing is you should compare new prices to new prices (and I mean new price to new price). Comparing a $10k amp that is so great that 10 years later you can buy it for $1500 should tell you that it wasn't all that good to start with. I can sell my 14 year old OTO for $600 more than I paid for it in 2003. I know it doesn't occur to you that the reason for that is that people actually WANT OTO amps and the fact that they can sell the SAME amp for 20+ years means that if it was good in 1995 it should still be good in 2017. Unlike most other stuff that is good for a four year review cycle and then dropped (killing all resale value). It's also why SS is almost always worthless on the second hand market. Buying some amp using some trashy torroid transformer design is a waste.
I tend to agree with you on some AN gear - not everything they make is "the best" whatever that means. There are still cost considerations to make and Andy Whittle in the video above points that out. But the heart is in the right place and the important bits are there in a complete level Zero system.
I myself preferred going with the 0.1x DAC ($1450) than the DAC 1x($1990) or 2.1xDAC ($3200). Both are better - but the "leap" better DAC in my opinion is the DAC 3.1x Balanced at $7600.
How about amps? The P1SE is $2900 and the P2SE is $3,500. I find them slightly high because Empress Monoblocks which to me sound quite vastly better starts at $5700 - for 2 monoblocks! But they'll retain their value.
I don't think the prices are particularly high - the M1 phono preamp (which provides a damn good phono stage) is $2,200 ($1,800 for a Line version). The M2 Line is only $3,000. These are hardly outlandish prices. You can spend significantly more on the likes of a Prima Luna, Rogue Audio, Line Magnetic, Mei Xing, Ming Da, and you're coming out behind on Sound Quality and You REALLY lose on the net cost side.
Why? unlike the Chinese - you can sell your M2 in 10 years for what you paid. So when you start talking about price talk about the net price - the AN costs $0 (inflation only) for 10 years versus any of these Chinese amps that in ten years you might sell for 1/4 if you're lucky (heck even the Ayon you noted gets you at best 25% of what you paid). So $3k Chinese amp you might sell for $500-$1,000. Your cost is $2,000 to $2500 versus $0 for the Audio Note.
So which costs more?
I have owned the AN K/Spe, J/Spe, TT2/Arm3/IQ3, AN E Lexus Hemp. All of these products I sold and got my money back on or sold for more than I paid. AN is looking pretty darn affordable - why the hell do you think I like it so much - I am a cheap ass MOFO and I like free. And Sound Quality trumps but only if we compare NET cost. If one amp A is $8k and is only worth $1,500 after 10 years you paid $6,500. If you could buy a $20k amp that has vastly better parts and sounds better for $20k keep it 10 years and you sell it for $13,500 - you still paid the NET cost of $6,500 but for ten years you got a much better sounding amplifier - then it is pretty clear that you and anyone else should buy amplifier B over amplifier A. Better amp, better quality, better sound, same overall cost to you. (opportunity cost aside).
McIntosh also resells well and sounds mediocre....so what?
LOL - Only certain McIntosh sells well on the second hand market. Soundhounds sold an $8000 MSRP amp for $2000 (and it was STILL a current model). Some hack on a forum got pissed at me and phoned them to which they confirmed - that's sucky resale value. But yes you are correct that some of their older tube amps MC275 do well second hand.There are plenty of nostalgic collector tube amps and LS-3/5a, Quad ESL 57 type speakers. Reminders of childhood dreams or whatnot. Again different thing. AN isn't the only brand that does well second hand but of current produced gear there ain't much. I have sold an AN-K/Spe, J/Spe, Turntable (TT2/arm3/IQ3) and E/Lx - in all cases I got 100-120% of what I paid for them. And I can sell my OTO for 20% more than I paid. This again is different than buying something from the 50s and getting more than you paid - not apples to apples. Show me some integrated amps and speakers that sold NEW in 2000-2005 that you can sell now for more than it sold for then.
Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - they're not my cup of tea either BUT they're successful and have been for decades. Plenty of reviewers like the sound of it better than most everything else. I don't love them and you don't love them but it is wrong to think "If I like it it is good, and if I don't it it stinks" It stinks to you.
I wax poetic on AN and some other brands and sure I will tell someone that I like an AN E a helluva lot more than a B&W N801 but the N801 isn't crap because I don't like it. It's not "not successful" because I don't like it. I am not going to deny B&W, McIntosh, Magnepan and numerous others their due just because I don't happen to enjoy their takes on music reproduction.
Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!
PS: My Wharfedale Vanguard (E series) from the 70s and 80s has a company that does nothing else but restore this ONE line of Wharfedales. That in no way makes them "still relevant or still on the map" - My dealer SOundhounds is a full (and I mean FULL) restoration and repair outlet - they can repair and restore EVERYTHING including any Apogee, Quad, Acoustat) That does not mean any of these old things are in any way shape or form on the map. People are merely getting their broken down speakers fixed. No more to read into it than that.
See Wharfedale restoration -
Edits: 08/26/17 08/27/17
Dude, I can get all kinds of AN gear for WAY less than it retails for...just because you found some suckers doesn't mean we all are. Every pieces of gear we demoed recently was available for at least 30% under retail (the used gear for less than 50%). Audiomarkt is full of AN stuff selling for way under retail.
I can buy an Oto for 1500 CHF. The new price is well over 4000. Typical markdown with age. If it was only 1500 new 15 years ago then AN has been pretty aggressive in its price hikes.
You are talking out your ass if you think most AN gear is selling for more than it costs. Does it lose less value than some brands, maybe.
"Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - "
What personal opinion? I give you an example of gear that holds its value well that's all. You keep blah blahing but you miss the point that I was responding to your comment about success financially and sound...now you want to backtrack and give all your rationalizations...save it you made the remark live with it.
"Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!"
If it was then you would own B&W speakers and McIntosh amps. Sales comes down to dealer bias as well and margins they get from manufacturers. If you think otherwise, go into the business and see. One brand will be pushed over others with nothing to do with sound but profits. Simple economics that eludes your grasp.
No one will ever take an Apogee to your Soundhound nonsense.
Well we disagree - I have heard the Ayon Crossfire, Einstein's preamps (with AN amps and others) The AN dealer in Hong Kong is also the Einstein importer and listening to an Einstein set-up Versus an AN system and its a total drubbing in favour of AN.I have also heard the VAC 30/30, Kronzilla DX monoblocks, an Odeon speaker that was so well designed for $10,000 ($12,500 in today's money) that Stereophile gave it one of the worst ever reviewers in the history of that magazine. Indeed, according to Stereophile they had 7 dealers in North America and now have? Hmm I see zero dealers. So the new models didn't go over much better.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/951/index.html
Start with a good preamp. Fred Crowder on our staff replaced his top of the line Einstein preamp with a vastly better sounding Audio Note preamp (the M3 would have been good enough though). Power amps can't fix upstream or downstream failures.
Comparing different tube amps and designs preamps and power amps - is pointless as well - the OTO is an integrated not having the advantage of a $20,000 preamp. The preamp BY FAR has more influence on amplifier sound than a power amp especially in an integrated. The OTO's preamp is an M1 sharing a box with the P1SE. The OTO Sig has a C-Core and I don't know if there is yet a P1SE Sig but if so then that would be the power amp equivalent. The LM 219IA sounds otherworldy better when it is used just as a power amp. It's preamp stage is limited to a 12AX7 and very mediocre ALPs Blue Potentiometer. Bypass this and the LM 219IA notches up another whole league.Then you're comparing a DHT 300B SET, to an EL84SEP and others.
Tube amplifiers of different tube types are designed to cater to an individual's tastes. I know you can't answer a direct question but do you understand that there are people who have tube output preferences? Since you won't answer the question I will just inform you that YES in fact people buy a 2A3 over a 300B because they like the sound of 2A3 over 300B - and vice versa - and EL84 over EL34 or KT88 or 45 or 211 and on it goes.
The Meishue Silver Signature is a 300B that does some things better than the Jinro 211. So you make your choice and your sacrifices. I auditioned the 2 watt 45 tube from Audio Note and it does some incredible things around voices that is not captured by either the 2a3 or their 300B but it also needs a much more sensitive speaker than what AN currently makes - and yet STILL people will choose the 45 because what it can do nothing else can do and if you listen to that music and don't require bass at level this is a phenomenal sounding amp. And quite inexpensive for AN.
Even within tube types with different brands they exhibit a certain sound characteristic - and there are bass strong 300B and gentler lighter sounding 300B amps.
This is why most tube amp makers make several tube amps for virtually the same price. Not because the more expensive one is necessarily better but because it physically requires a bigger more expensive part to make the amplifier. 211s can kill you they need to be made beefier and safer to not burn your house down. That costs a lot more money than making a 300B or an EL84.
At the AN Dealer in HK I have auditioned 300B and 2A3 back to back - both amps are basically the exact same price - same size - other than the tube you'd think it was the same product. And they are night and day different sounding and they each do some things better than the other - and you make your choice. More truth or more beauty and since AN has been selling both output tube types for a long time each person makes their choice as to which sounds better to them. I hate to break the news to you but neither is the absolute right one and neither is the absolute more accurate one to all people. I may think the 2A3 walks all over the 300B but the next person may think the absolute opposite.
You want to do amp comparisons - you compare an 8 watt AN 300B to a brand X 8 watt 300B (using the exact same tubes) with the exact same cables at the exact same volume level because AN and other 300B will have different gain characteristics. It's BS comparing EL84 and 300B and 211 and whatever else.
You don't compared an EL84 integrated at $6k to a $20k preamp and $8k($10k+ in today's dollars) 300b power amp and then say - gee the OTO isn't as good and can't beat $20k gear (although I have heard the OTO Sig and the The Tube Preamp and the Ayon so I would argue that as well).
And the evaluation is with a speaker the OP doesn't own? So where is the relevance? I say get gear specifically designed for his speaker and you present comparisons with a whole bunch of different mixed and matched stuff at all over the map prices. Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers. If they happen to suck or they happen to sound heavenly with some other brand of speaker or cable - then tough luck or that's nice but they probably don't care either way since they can't keep up with all the orders anyway.
I know you have an AN axe to grind but really?
Edits: 08/23/17
First, I can assure you I have no axe to grind with AN...especially not their electronics. Their speakers fail to live up to the hype from my and a lot of my colleagues ears. Second, you have never heard an Odeon speaker, have you? I can assure you that the company is not suffering from having no presence in the US...they just launched a new line of very expensive speakers. The speakers in question, the Rigoletto, has a powerful bass such that my friend does not use his big SVS sub anymore, which he used to use with his Reference 3a speakers. I, on the other hand, have head AN speakers many times as we have a local dealer and have heard all levels of E. I know very well the differences about which I speak and you do not.
Third. what you think of the Einstein is immaterial and it is a very good sounding preamp that is widely regarded and highly respected...what Fred Crowder did doesn't concern me...maybe he has a lot of money and was bored? I never said it was the best preamp but it is a fundamentally transparent and dyanmic preamp that is also well balanced tonally. So your comment is way off base regardig the Einstein preamp...it is a good preamp...very good.
Fourth, the Einstein was used with all amps except the Oto Sig...this means that the other two amps were on the same footing as the KR audio amp. We did not feed the Einstein into the Oto for gain reasons...plus that is not how he would have used the Oto if he would have wanted to keep it. Oto doesn't have a preamp bypass like the LM219ia so you have to go through the integrated input, which means now two selector switches and two volume controls in the signal path...not the best idea if it can be avoided.
Now, with that out of the way I will continue.
The whole shootout occurred because a friend of mine was thinking about buying one of the three AN amps in question. He already owned the KR Audio amp. He wanted me to come over and help him decide which, if any, of the three AN amps he should keep.
We were comparing SET amps (Oto is wired in triode so it is a triode amp that is using pentodes wired in triode) on sensitive, easy load speakers. No apologies need to be made for the type of SET.
Your question is pretty silly. Of course different output tubes will have different signatures. What you don't seem to get is that a designer can make a 300B sound like pretty much anything he wants. I have heard 300Bs sound lean and tight, warm and mushy, bold and powerful, soft and delicate and so on. This far outweighs the selection of the tube and if someone prefers a given tube from the same designer it is probably due to the way the amp was designed rathe than the tube type.
Given that the P1SE and the Oto are nearly the same amp and they sounded profoundly different mainly because of the output transformer and perhaps the passive parts upgraded as well. You would not know they both used an EL84 based on sound alone. I have heard 211 amps sound incredibly transparent and open and warm and woolly. You would have never thought they both used 211s heard blind. A NAT SE1 sounds nothing at all like a Kondo Ongaku.
I have an Aries Cerat Diana integrated amp that is using DHP (direct heated pentodes, wired in triode) and all three tubes can be biased independently and over a reasonably wide range. You can shape the sound how you like practically. This is the one of the most transparent amps I know of and with authority that I never heard from any 25 watt amp...the LM219 is a toy by comparison (sonically and literally).
People tend to fall in love with a particular implementation of a given tube and then tend to stretch that over the whole of implementations of that tube. This is a false way to think of this. You don't care all that much for AN 300B designs but they should not be taken as representative of ALL 300B designs...they are not.
Sure, some characteristics are present but they are swamped by design in most cases for the final sound...especially the output transformer.
People like the 45 sound because the output transformer requirements are modest so it is easier to make a good output transformer that leads to better sound. 211 is a pain because it has high impedance and needs a lot of iron and then very special winding techniques not to lose hte highs. A 45 has not such concerns. NAT makes a very transparent sound 211 amp. Aries Cerat uses the 813, which is a bit transmitting pentode and their amps are even more transparent...OTL like but without the OTL tonal signature. However, this requires an 18Kg (yes 18) output transformer and very special winding to keep the high frequency resolution and extension.
There is so much you are simply ignorant about in amp design that you then have no choice but to oversimplify with "this tube type sounds like this and that one sounds like that etc."
I have said many times that ANs amps with their bigger C core trannies sound a lot better than the ones with their shitty little EI core trannies. Not that EI core is bad...many companies make very good ones...but AN uses tiny little things that are not able to maintain low distortion in the bass and create a muddy resolution and overly warm tone. Tubes are not inherently "warm" sounding...this is largely an artifact of design.
A 211 amp costs a lot to make mainly because it requires a larger power supply and needs much larger output transformers with special winding to deal with the large core and a lot of wire to deal with the high impedances (around 10K ohms) that 211s have. 300Bs have a much lower impedance, much lower current requirements and because of lower power a much smaller core output tranny.
"At the AN Dealer in HK I have auditioned 300B and 2A3 back to back - both amps are basically the exact same price - same size - other than the tube you'd think it was the same product. And they are night and day different sounding and they each do some things better than the other - and you make your choice. "
Again, down to design more than the output tube. It is probably possible to make them sound very similar but then why would you want to do that if you are trying to offer people sound choices?
"You want to do amp comparisons - you compare an 8 watt AN 300B to a brand X 8 watt 300B (using the exact same tubes) with the exact same cables at the exact same volume level because AN and other 300B will have different gain characteristics. It's BS comparing EL84 and 300B and 211 and whatever else."
How is that any more BS than you comparing a 300B and 2A3 from AN? Hint, it's not. In that system, with those ancillaries and those speakers it was a perfectly valid comparison...in the end the KR stayed and the three AN amps sent packing. An Ayon 300B amp was also sent packing. We set the levels to be equal...nothing more need be done but let the amps speak for themselves.
"although I have heard the OTO Sig and the The Tube Preamp and the Ayon so I would argue that as well)."
You haven't heard them together and with these speakers.
"Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers."
Do they? What a bunch of nonsense...
Finally, as I said, the Oto was not bad at all but not the equal of the KR when driven either with the Einstein or directly from the Golden Atlantic; however, the owner fully intends to use the Einstein as that brings more to the sound overall. The P1SE and Conqueror tells what happens when an inadequate output transformer is used...boring.
I know you are a fanboy...but really?
"Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers."
Do they? What a bunch of nonsense...
I have also found this be true, not just for speakers, but also preamps. I was also told by AN that I shouldn't "upgrade" some of the electrolytic caps and resistors on Conqueror Silver because it would "throw it out of balance". What I heard was far different from the "lovely sound" for which AN is so well known. It sounded more accurate, more robust and dyanmic.
IF this is true then it means that the gear is strongly voiced and cannot be considered a neutral communicator of recorded signals, IMO.
I have heard the non-silver Conqueror and the Conqueror Silver...neither was what I would call a very good amplifier. Ok in the mids and a bit soft in the highs but rather woolly in the bass.
Some Kaisei electrolytic caps, better AN PS caps, and a few strategically placed non-magnetic silver caps cleared up the two problems you mentioned. My speakers may have helped, Tonian Labs. But yes, in the AN line, this is a "budget" amp. I guess the price in the US is between $6-7K. not sure.
Perhaps bass clarity is not a priority for you?
See its funny. If Fred replaces an Einstein with AN...Fred being a reviewer I can site as a real person and one can read his review of the comparison...well he only did so because he was bored. When the HK Einstein dealer buys AN for his own house and all the other people working there and NOT an Einstein let me guess he's wrong too.But, when it's YOU and your mysterious buddies then they are all of course perfect decision makers and infallable and never wrong.
PS, judging sound quality has absolutely no relation to being an engineer.
I just spent this afternoon listening to a complete Einstein flagship system and KR recently. Meh.
The M3 eats the Einstein for lunch. IMO. I stress IMO. Doesn't mean Einstein sucks it means I preferred the M3 in a big way over it.
I already told you which Odeon I heard so why go down that road again.
Stereophile sums it up nicely and correctly. If they're such great quality speaker line why would all 7 dealers dump them? People came in and heard them and all bought something else because the something else was clearly better.
If Odeon was in fact better they would have 7 dealers now and perhaps more since 2003 if they were prized by anyone.
I mean since our discussions back in the day, AN has gone from 1 plant to 4 and quintupled their workforce.
So doing the math on the audiophile world market is on my side, not yours. My opinions on sound quality held. Yours went out of business.
And yes AN amps come in different transformer levels based on price. That's fine. No one should expect massive 50hib c core etc etc in a $1500 amp. KR sells amps well above $40,000. Ayon in today's dollars would be $12000 - the OTO SE is $6k. I mean it's nonsensical.
Lastly this is what makes me wonder how Berkely gives out degrees like cracker jack.""Third. what you think of the Einstein is immaterial""
Actually it is material to me when I am spending money. Your opinion on Einstein is absolutely not one wit more material than mine. You are the LAST person I would go to for advice on anything audio related.
""it is a very good sounding preamp that is widely regarded and highly respected...what Fred Crowder did doesn't concern me.""
See anyone with a science degree or any degree can't possibly make such retarded arguments. It baffles me that Berkley has turned into a degree Pez dispensary?
Your arguments would have gotten you laughed out of any basic logic 101 course.
Here is why you are an abject failure at science. Berkley should request their degree back - Sagan is rolling in his grave. This is your continual argument every time we go round.
A) Einstein is widely regarded as good. So because Morricab likes Einstein then Einstein and the review press that support it is good.
Can you not see why you are hopeless at basic logic? No? Still no?
Let's spell it out so even a Berkley grad can understand. X is good because it gets good reviews and is highly regarded - that is Morricab's logic argument.
If X is true(good) then if Y gets good reviews (and far more of them) and is highly regarded (arguably more highly regarded) then basic logic dictates that Y is just as good if not even better - regardless of what ANY one individual thinks. It is objectively and logically true that if X is good Y is just as good (if not better).
Why is Y better than X? If it can be established that Y exceeds the criteria of X. Thus, if X gets 5 great reviews and one reviewer buys it - it is a highly regarded product.
If Y gets 20 great reviews and 4 reviewers buy it and Y also sells many times more of them (to audiophiles with serious money) then it can be safely argued that Y is more highly regarded. It doesn't matter if RGA or Morricab like X or Y or one over the other. Being a quasi decent scientist you take your own self bias (opinion) the F out of the equation and you OBJECTIVELY look at the data.
Doing something dumb like citing Bose sales is also logically vapid because Bose isn't in the same sphere of the target market (audiophiles) - Bose sells to GQ buyers and non audiophiles. So while they sell the most they are not selling to audiophiles. And even if one insists on keeping Bose sales as an argument then it still doesn't help the initial argument and is even worse logically because it would only mean that Bose has to be considered good like X and Y.
Example
I am not a fan of Magnepan sound (it does zilch for me and it fatigues me (at least the .6 series) but I am not mentally retarded so I don't say - Magnepan sucks - it may suck to me but I can admit the speaker brand is excellent based on the fact that it is successful and has sold for decades and has a huge vocal fanbase of lovers.I am in no way bothered by Magnepan fans - I am curious as to why you get tyrannical when someone likes anything you don't like though. PS it's quite fine that you don't like AN - just like I don't care for Magnepan - it's a shame you're not big enough to admit they are well reviewed, highly regarded and very successful - it's like you can't admit that 2+2 equals 4.
I don't get into this argument to defend Audio Note or tell you that you should buy it over whatever you like - I get into it not to convert you - I just don't get why you can't admit that just because you don't like it you can't be big enough to admit they are highly regarded, well reviewed, and successful. I can say that about a lot of brands in all areas from photography gear, to cars, to watches, to audio gear. I don't like Rolex. But I can admit they are a great watch maker, successful and highly regarded. I just don't like the look of them so it all goes for nothing for me.
Edits: 08/24/17 08/24/17 08/24/17 08/24/17
"See its funny. If Fred replaces an Einstein with AN...Fred being a reviewer I can site as a real person and one can read his review of the comparison...well he only did so because he was bored. When the HK Einstein dealer buys AN for his own house and all the other people working there and NOT an Einstein let me guess he's wrong too."
Are you trying to be obtuse on purpose? This was never a discussion about the F*ing Einstein. That is what my friend has and that is what we used. Is it a bad preamp? Not at all. That is why it is irrelevant what Fred or your HK dealer does with their own damn money. I never said Fred bought it out of boredom. READ what I said. I said that I don't know why he changed...perhaps boredom...it's as good a reason as any for many guys who change gear constantly. I know plenty of people (my two of my friends in fact) that strongly prefer Einstein over AN...so what? Stop being a dope and stop making strawmen.
"But, when it's YOU and your mysterious buddies then they are all of course perfect decision makers and infallable and never wrong."
I simply related what we heard and you don't like to hear that AN was outperformed so you have been going through contortions to claim our listening session was somehow invalid in your mind...believe what you want. My friend and I are both very experienced listeners and we know what we hear. Would AN work better with AN speakers? Who knows, we don't own them...no one I know owns them even though they all visit the dealer for other stuff...come to think of it none of them own any electronics either although we try them out...
"PS, judging sound quality has absolutely no relation to being an engineer"
No, but it does mean you an easily misassign the reasons for WHY things sound like they do...as you clearly do.
"I just spent this afternoon listening to a complete Einstein flagship system and KR recently. Meh."
So? Care for some details beyond Meh? I could say that for every AN system I have heard so far but I choose to be slightly more descriptive.
Which KR and which speaker and what ancillaries...come on this name dropping KR and Meh is really amateur hour. Why you keep mentioning Einstein is a mystery...my friend owns, he likes it and we used it. I don't own any Einstein (I had an Einstein "The Absolute Tune" for about 4 months...didn't like it and traded it for the NAT Symbiosis SE...a really interesting but frustrating machine).
"The M3 eats the Einstein for lunch"
Maybe, maybe not...I am not surprised by your opinion. I don't have one as I have not heard them back to back. I know though another friend of mine strongly preferred the NAT Utopia to an Audio Note M5 as he said the M5 was too warm and sluggish comparatively. The Aries Cerat Incito is far better than all of the above, including my NAT Plasma, which I also like more than Einstein.
"I already told you which Odeon I heard so why go down that road again.
Stereophile sums it up nicely and correctly. If they're such great quality speaker line why would all 7 dealers dumped them? People came in and heard them and all bought something else because the something else was clearly better.
If Odeon was in fact better they would have 7 dealers now and perhaps more if they were prized by anyone.
"
Seriously, stop being an idiot. One model reviewed by Stereophile does not a company make. Look at the very positive reviews on Positive Feedback and in the German an Dutch magazines. They have been in business 25 years and have a robust business in Europe and Asia. Who cares what you think makes them a successful business or not? They had a very well regarded room this year in Munich as well, partnering with New Audio Frontiers of Italy.
"I mean since our discussions back in the day AN has gone from 1 plant to 4 and quintupled their workforce"
And? Is business size a function of quality now? Then Sony, Yamaha, B&W etc. make far better products than Audio Note. Really stupid...sorry it is such a stupid thing to say.
"So doing the math on the audiophile world market is on my side not yours. My opinions on sound quality held. Yours went out of business. Lol"
As I said, Odeon is not out of business at all and just launched new ultraend models and had a sucessful Munich show (they had a real room too, which costs serious $$$). Clearly to do that means they are not shuttered or struggling. Your lack of knowledge is stunning.
"And yes AN amps come in different transformer levels based on price. That's fine. No one should expect massive 50hib c core etc etc in a $1500 amp. KR sells amps well above $40,000"
Most KR amps are under 20K and hte lowest prices are well under 10K. My JJ322 HAS massive Hib double C Core output transformers for a retail price of 6K euro. They are a good 10Kg. Bass is tight, controlled and well defined...as one would expect with good iron. Midrange is holographic as one would expect from a good 300B design and highs are extended but delicate. Not a world beater but very good for that money. The only AN amp for 6K or less with Double C cores is the Oto Signature.
The reason it is not fine for AN to offer in their "budget" products EI transformers is that the EI transformers used in lower AN amps are frankly too small and do not deliver clean bass and it colors up through the midrange as well. I have heard this now one three or four of their lower models. Maybe you don't hear that lack of bass definition or the coloration that creeps into the mids as a result?
If I was going to spend 20K-25K on an amp, I would probably buy an Aries Cerat Diana Forte or Concero 25 monoblocks. I would put them up against a Jinro or Conquest Silver Signatures or P4 Balanced...why not try? As always, I am an experimenter and will base my decisions on observations. You don't like mine because they didn't come down in favor of "your" brand...
1) it's as good a reason as any for many guys who change gear constantly.
Fred doesn't change gear constantly. Could it be because the AN preamp sounds a lot better forcing him to change...that's the reason he wrote. So are you saying he his a liar? He must be if you put in YOUR reason as a way to slam AN and support your favorites.
2) you don't like to hear that AN was outperformed so you have been going through contortions to claim our listening session was somehow invalid.
No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic. He owns the AN J/Spe speaker (he likes it and you don't so your ears and the OPs ears are completely different. This is why I don't comment anymore when a Magnapan owner asks for amplifier or source advice. My ears and the OPs ears DO NOT HEAR IT THE SAME. If we did I too would own a Magnepan.
""And? Is business size a function of quality now? Then Sony, Yamaha, B&W etc. make far better products than Audio Note. Really stupid...sorry it is such a stupid thing to say."""
No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies are major not just because of stereo equipment.
When one is speaking of JUST small business companies catering ONLY to audiophiles (not selling dishwashers, and bikes and video games) and are not selling lifestyle components (Bose and B&O) then you compare APPLES to APPLES. So you can compare an audiophile audio company catering to audiophiles to an audiophile company catering to audiophiles. Odeon caters to audiophiles - they are NOT selling home theater in a box - they are selling to wealthy audiophiles. Audio Note is catering to wealthy audiophiles. 2003 is baseline. Odeon has 7 dealers now zero - AN has grown four to five fold. Both cater to the EXACT same market to the EXACT same potential customer base. Holy Batsales Batman! This is so basic. Nice Strawman though.
"" My JJ322 HAS massive Hib double C Core output transformers for a retail price of 6K euro. They are a good 10Kg. Bass is tight, controlled and well defined...as one would expect with good iron. Midrange is holographic as one would expect from a good 300B design and highs are extended but delicate. Not a world beater but very good for that money. The only AN amp for 6K or less with Double C cores is the Oto Signature. ""
This is all fine - maybe I would like the JJ more as well since I like parallel 300b. But there is a thing called system synergy - I have liked one amp better in one system and liked another amp better in another system. Do you hold out ANY possibility that the JJ322 sounds better than an OTO with a horn like Odeon and that the OTO could sound better with an AN J speaker? Not even possible ever that one amp is better in certain systems and not in another? Because I certainly have come across that many times. Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. But Zesto with AN not so much - they bully the speakers.
""Clearly to do that means they are not shuttered or struggling. Your lack of knowledge is stunning.""
They went out of business in the United States. I was referring to not just Odeon but other companies you always support like Apogee. Soundhounds carried Reference 3a - people compared - they dropped Reference 3a. Two dealers here in HK carried them (including King when he was a dealer) both dealers dropped them. Reference 3a when they were called 3a also went bankrupt. I see a common theme. And I was a huge Reference 3a fan until they went to Berrylium - big downgrade - not surprised they disappeared in this market where people are born into a 9 tone language and a lot of classical music die-hards.
As for other amps - I'll try anything that is available for audition. HK is a huge audiophile market - point me to a dealer and a product that you insist beats an AN amp for around the same money. $30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality - you can have a 70lb transformer silver wired, high C-Core whatever that sounds worse than a small EI that is designed by actual competent people. When you go into auditions and see that amp A is 250lbs and has huuuuge transformers and the next amp is 30lbs and assume the former is better - you are in a biased state.
Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale. I can buy far beefier equipment in terms of amplifier weight and transformer weight from all sorts of companies. Those attributes do not make something sound better - they may make them sound better with harder to drive speakers. They don't struggle on AN speakers - depending which AN speakers.
"No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. "
Yes, I gave the opinions of I and my audio buddies and you challenged them...so what? Going on some pointless tirade against Odeon and Einstein...
"Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic."
It was, I suggested he try SET OTL monos...totally on topic.
"No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies "
Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company. Is that apples to apples enough for you (I noticed you didn't touch B&W in your sensless retort). The very best amp maker I know of, Aries Cerat, is a very small company but by your definition they must suck because they have only 7 employees and a small factory. Like I said, what you were saying was stupid. Does that mean that AN sucked when it was only a small workshop and it is only good now that they have quadrupled in size? You see your argument is totally illogical...
"But there is a thing called system synergy "
For devices with significant flaws there can be a benefit of balancing one device against another. For devices with relatively few or minor flaws then they tend to work very well regardless of the system they are put into...no synergy required.
"Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. "
I haven't heard Marten speakers sound really good with any amplifiers and heard them sound bad with quite a few.
"They went out of business in the United States. "
No, they no longer have representation in the US...their business is based in Germany. They are successful there and in Asia or then they would disappear completely.
"but other companies you always support like Apogee"
Look around, Apogee has been out of business nearly 20 years and there are a lot of peopl who still own and love them and spend large sums restoring them. I have a friend in Holland who makes a nice income from the restoration of these speakers using drivers made in Australia (who has the rights to the Apogee name). There are pro restorers in Germany and US as well. This company died for business reasons not product reasons. There is a strong love for their sound still today.
Reference 3a made some amazing monitors in the past (I particularly liked my old MMCs and the Royal Virtuoso) but I cannot speak of the rest of their lineup. It seems Tash Goka is not taking things in the right direction but I thought the Be tweeter was a nice upgrade for my MMCs...it brought additional transparency...something you seem to be afraid of. My time with this brand though was relatively short so don't make too much of it. My affair with Odeon is much stronger and enduring and the sound far more realistic in their big models. From the little Orfeo monitors (I would put them up agains an AN J anyday) to the big La Bohemes or No.38 they breathe life. A friend has No. 32s with a Golden Atlantic DAC, Aries Cerat Incito preamp and Lamm M1.1 monos (soon to be Aries Cerat Concero 65s). The bass power and control is stunning and my friend's profession is live concert promoter and demands live bass power. The mids and highs are typical, ultra transparent, no apparent coloration Odeon.
"$30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
"
IMO, a factor of 2 is the same ballpark. As I said, I would love to compare a Jinro to a KR Kronzilla SXi or Aries Cerat Diana Integrated. That is all in the 20K class, which is for me an upper limit of reasonable price to spend on an amp. Ok, the 90K Kondo GakuOh is such a beautiful machine that I would have to think about it...if I had that kind of cash and Living Voice Vox Olympian speakers.
"Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality "
We are talking about output transformers and not power transformers, right? You are both right and wrong. For SET, size really matters. Core saturation really matters. All else being equal then the materials really matter and the winding concept really matters. A lot of designers shy away from huge cores because it is difficult to wind them correctly to get good HF response. Having thin laminates and exotic materials can help with low level resolution and responsiveness but it cannot overcome too small a core, which will limit bass resolution and pollute the rest of the spectrum with harmonic distortion from saturation. The review in Stereophile shows that the Jinro has a good sized output transformer as there is no significant increase in distortion at bass frequencies. I agree with JA that it measures pretty well for a SET.
"Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale"
Dynamics are vital to sounding live. Not just loud to louder but very quiet to less quiet. The ability to startle when it would do so in real life...it is rare and only a few pieces of gear can do it. Of course subtle resolution and tonality is vital to a real experience as well one cannot igore either part of the equation.
""Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company.""
Nice try with yet more strawmen.
Once again I am not suggesting that more sales = better product and I have told you this about 50 times over the years so get it through that THICK f-ing skull of yours.
ANd if you could READ you would see that I DIRECTLY brought up Magnepan - that they sell well, that people love them - I don't but I can recognize they are a successful speaker maker and so SHOULD YOU. Why? Because they TARGET the audiophile market and they find success with the AUDIOPHILE MARKET whether or not people like the sound or not. People go out and listen and they buy them. Ditto for B&W. Whether I like them or you like them is immaterial - They are deemed to be a good loudspeaker maker. Now if people ask me if I think they're great - well no I don't personally like them. I like other speakers better. But other speakers I like better are not necessarily the same target audience as B&W is very big into surround sound home theater applications. Which is similar but not the same as 2 channel primarily music applications.
Success is really simple. If a store sells 2 loudspeakers for around $2500 and at the end of the year after demonstrating to hundreds of people the store sell 50 speakers from ABC and 0 from speaker XYZ and almost ALL the listeners are audiophiles who have heard a lot of speakers - then it stands to reason that the "success" of speaker ABC is successful due to sound quality and not any other "excuse" that can be invented to make anything stick to the wall.
I'm sorry you don't get why comparing a speaker maker like B&W to Audio Note isn't the same as comparing small outfit speaker makers to Audio Note. If you truly don't understand this there is no further reason to go on with you. You have to win the argument regardless of using a modicum of sense. These are generally different markets with different agendas.
B&W was a massive entitity well before Odeon or AN hit the scene. And so was Magnepan - that's why those comparisons are not the same. Audio Note was a tiny outfit back in 2003 as well - so you can compare small bespoke audio maker to small bespoke audio maker. When a dealer sells two brands of speakers for the same money (Soundhounds carrying Reference 3a and Audio Note and several other amp brands like ASL, Jolida, ARC) and when vast numbers of customers come in - they audition and buy consistently one over the other to the point where the other can't sell anything - they get dropped.
The notion of good - you can't get past your ONE singular opinion. I mean this is not f-ing rocket science buddy. 10 people walk into a store and listen to $10,000 loudspeakers. If Nobody buys them - the dealer drops them - if people buy them then people LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!!! They then do not get dropped. The dealer phones up the manufacturer and says - hey build me 50 more of those they're selling like hotcakes.
While sales doesn't make something good in and of itself - a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good! Of the two the former is sure as hell more likely (Again WITHIN the confines of direct apples to apples - small audio company versus small audiophile company) not heavily marketed juggernauts like B&W and Magnepan or Harman International and various products.
You simply don't like the fact that Odeon failed in the US market and the only product to be reviewed was deemed an abject failure. I'm happy to go audition a different model if and when they ever become available.
To a previous request with KR I auditioned them with audio Physic and Peak Consult. If these speakers to your mind suck then KR should be more selective of the dealers they choose to show their gear with. In other words if these two speakers suck that is KR's fault for not building or demanding dealers to carry speakers that showcase their amplifiers properly. It was big sound - hi-fi didn't move me - impressed me - didn't engage me. Like most SS.
Tell your friends at Odeon to get a dealer in Hong Kong or Vancouver Canada - Big markets both with tons of rich people - tons and tons of millionaires and billionaire audiophiles - surely if AN is terrible as you say then if Odeon puts a speaker in the same room - all the audiophiles who come in will all buy the Odeon and AN will go out of business. Your dream come true. SO why didn't that happen in the US? If it is so outstanding for the same or less money (and I admit I like the looks of them much better) so they should kill.
You are the one who made a big deal about the growth of AN and how that must mean they are superior products. I simply demonstrated the faulty logic in this supposition...get that through YOUR thick skull.
There is simply no point in discussing the business with you...you simply don't get it.
Stop being so stupid really. There are lots of other brands that people prefer to the one you fanboy relentlessly. Odeon, and other brands you don't like, such as Magenpan, make speakers others like more than AN speakers. You act like no one is buying them...even in shops that have AN stuff...well it just isn't true.
"a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good!" This is not at all inherently true as sales can happen or not happen for a whole host of non-product quality reasons...this is so simple but you still will never get it I guess...you have a child's understanding of business.
I think you already answered your own question about KR...obviously those are not ideal brands to match with any SET amp...enough said. I can say though that KR probably works better with those speakers than most other SETs...although that might still not be ideal. You act like a company can control what importers and dealers are doing halfway around the world...naïve as usual...
Odeon has dealers in Asia. It is none of my business what kind of business model they follow. They are not my friends...enough silliness. I have no wish to see any company go out of business and it is ridiculous for you to think otherwise. Get real, you rant and lose your mind.
Superb overview. Thx
Went looking for your best room recommendations but couldn't locate them?
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Hi Jusbe
I have been told they'll be up next week. All my favorites were SET friendly albeit my absolute favorite room would require an AnkoruII or Gaku-On :)
My first 4 rooms are up however
Page 1&2 https://www.dagogo.com/cas7-richard-austen-reports-part-1
Page 3&4 https://www.dagogo.com/cas7-richard-austen-reports-part-2
Frank Cheng covered some of the panel rooms that I did not much care for although we agreed on several other rooms.
https://www.dagogo.com/cas7-frank-cheng-reports
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
I will say I agree with Jack Roberts on his second, third, and fourth pictures.
I sent all my show coverage to the editor but they generally like to give the reviews some breathing room. They have posted only four rooms of my coverage. I have sent in many more pages.
Plus they may be editing video footage of our reviewer's coverage where 5 dagogo reviewers commented on our favorite rooms.
The sound at this show was the best overall I've been to in terms of many rooms sounding quite good. I don't try to compare any components in these shows - just the overall sound of the room. And I typically use the speaker as the reference point or star attraction of the room.
This is difficult though because the Pure Audio Project speaker was using a $25,000 amp and maybe another speaker that was sounding pretty darn close is using a $4,000 amp.
Some rooms only had vinyl, some rooms only had computers and didn't have the music in their hard drive that I brought. So then what do you do?
I had one guy tell me a room wasn't too good - the next day we were sitting together in the room and I played what I brought cranked it up and his opinion dramatically changed. So hardly apples to apples comparisons. So I choose what I think sounded the best overall and some runner ups and then at the next show it could be something completely different.
I can't give away the selections early but I was happy to find a longer list of stuff I liked. And a speaker that I was roundly blown away by that if I had the space I would buy.
The AN/J's should be a good fit for your room size. I owned a pair of them for 15 years and powered them with an Audio Note P2SE single ended amp (18 wpc). My musical tastes are eclectic and this combination worked well with whatever musical genre I played, including large scale orchestral pieces, electronic, jazz, etc.
nt
Non SET amps hard clip. I had the AN J/Spe and OTO (10 watts) for 13 years in a room in the ~14x13ish living space and never got to the maximum volume levels capable. Paintings rattled on the walls and the water in the drink would visibly vibrate so I'm not sure exactly how loud you want it but this was ear damagingly loud. No distortion.
More power usually comes at the expense of worse sound quality but so long as you have a good preamp and source and the power amp isn't getting higher watt figures in a narrow band like 1khz then you're fine.
It also seems to depend on the tube type. I enjoyed listening to the Audio Note Quest single 300B DHT monoblock (8 watts) versus the Empress (2a3) monoblocks (8 watts) and hearing the latter sound so much bigger louder and having far far more impact. Most all the parts are similar in these and from the same manufacturer. The 2A3 has more wallop. Still the Quest had enough power but in a bigger room and with more impact music the Empress (or parallel 300B) is what I would go for.
The above photo is at the dealer I shop at in Hong Kong (not in corners). Properly designed 8 watt amps are enough. Audio Note (who knows more than forum peanut gallery) recommends 7 watts for their AN J speaker line.
Here the AN J wins best sound of show with the 4.2 watts per channel undistorted OTO. Plenty of power, huge dynamics, can hit 25hz flat in room response - no problem. But if you are worried just get a second hand Soro or the power amp equivalent P2SE I believe. Probably under budget too and 18 watts per channel.
If I come across a bit snarky but I just finished covering the California Audio Show where I often use Guns and Roses' Knockin on Heaven's Door and Big Band Jazz at very high levels and Audio Note's room with their speakers that have lower rated Sensitivity and amps with lower watt ratings had more bass and volume than higher sensitive horns and amps double or quadruple the power output ratings in the same sized rooms. The AN played louder with deeper bass and no audible distortion. I was at a 95dB baseline hitting over 100dB peaks without a hint of any audible distortion. I felt bad that the show runners all left the room to protect their hearing but for the money - you better be able to play rock music and big band and whatever else at loud levels.
But even with this youtube as poor as youtube sounds you can still hear the OTO (4 undistorted watts) driving the AN J(not in corners) so around 90dB sensitive) and the OTO is probably the "darkest" sounding of all AN amplifiers aside from the IZero.
RGA,
I was brought up on Stan Kenton turned up to eleven. Today I listen at a 75db base volume. I figure 98db potential is enough for me. I think I have your old Js that came to me from the lower mainland. I am looking at getting a 2A3 amp for my friends LaScalas. I'd have to think about parallel 2A3s for myself. I want to be sure that I get something high enough on the food chain to evaluate the SET approach fairly.
I'm a minimalist so the single output tube approach is attractive. I just need more education before I decide.
I don't want to dissuade anyone from more power - you don't want to spend a lot only to have it never be able to play loud. But I put sound quality above volume as to the order of things. Like when I tried the OTO with the B&W N801 and Quads - they sounded vastly better with the OTO than they do with Krell, Classe, Bryston, EL34s, KT88s. BUT the amp could not drive them loud enough to justify the price. SO yes power/sensitivity is an issue.
The trick is to find amplifiers that offer high power that also sound as good as lower powered tube amps(SETS). IME that doesn't exist. Which then rules out all low efficiency speakers from being acceptable.
High power SET is expensive - my old LM 219IA is one of the cheaper best offerings. But going higher efficiency isn't so expensive. And for whatever reason the AN J and E seem to defy specifications and measurements. The only other possible reason I can think as to why a 10 watt AN amp can make the 93DB AN pelt volume while other speakers rated 100dB and 20 watts distort is the quality of AN amps transformers or the kind of speaker design being lossy and minimal damping and using the corner to serve as an extension of the speaker.
The problem with suggesting AN amps second hand is that they tend to go up in value over the years. I can sell my OTO Phono SE for about $600 more than I paid for it back in 2003. Largely because the new OTO has more than doubled in price since then.
If you already have a preamp - this all becomes easy because you can try a bunch of different power amps. Have a big SS for parties and 2A3 for quality music listening. I tend to prefer parallel 300B and 2a3 - perhaps because they do possess more drive, grip and power.
From my price list which is over a year old and provided to me when reviewing the I Zero - it shows the P2SE as $3,650 (18 watts). The Empress Monoblocks (8 watts) start at $5,790 for the pair. The former can be found used but the latter is far less likely as it is a newer product and not as many around.
AN gets quite expensive very fast after this. Empress Silver jumps to $8,000 and the Signature versions jumps to $12,200. And this is the least expensive of their 2a3 amps. They have two other higher level amps in the Neiro($25,000) and Kageki ($64,000) So gets crazy fast.
Surely you're not claiming that 4 watts driving 90dB speakers chases attendees out of the rooom? You're describing low efficiency speakers driven by a low power amplifier, and the inevitable result is SPL That's more than an order of magnitude below live levels. C'mon guys, these fundamental concepts have been well understood for many decades.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I am claiming what I have heard - which AUdio Note system have you heard with the volume cranked up? Peter Qvortrup has been selling his high but not exceptionally high efficiency speakers with his 8 watt amps for close to 30 years and to people who generally have money and who have generally owned plenty of high power SS amps. So unless he is managing to fool a vast number of people including audio equipment reviewers like myself who have heard top of the line 1000 watt amplifiers and numerous $50,000+ horns then something is amiss.
At CAS I auditioned the Volti Audio Rival horn speakers (100dB sensitive) and with 20 watt Border Patrol amps - when pushed there was audible distortion.
The AN E/Spe He is rated as 97dB sensitive (by AN). One speaker free standing, the speaker was measured as 92dB sensitive by Stereophile (so factor in 2 speakers and in corners and in room then 97dB is accurate).
The speakers played louder with no distortion than the Volti.
In the case of the AN J/Spe - the speaker is rated as 93dB sensitive but unlike the E it presents an easier impedance load not dipping below 5 ohms.
93dB @ 1watt
96dB @ 2 watts
99dB @ 4 watts
102dB@ 8 watts
105dB@ 16 watts (AN amps can go a good 50% above their rated specs.
Most people most of the time listen at the listening chair below 80dB. It is fairly loud at 70dB. To those of us who still have quality hearing ability left that is. I could make the keyboard on my desk rumble with the OTO/J combo so I am not sure how much louder you need for it to be.
This is supposed to be about quality of music not quantity of SPL. Certainly there is a limit to what this can do - the J can after all handle 150 watts so one is welcome to buy a Rotel RB 1090 which is capable of 1kilowatt and can be had on the used market for $600. It will certainly play louder. I'm not against power - these days power is dirt cheap.
This is why my general preference is for preamp and power amp that way you can run the comparisons yourself. Have the 8 watt monoblocks and the 500 watt monoblocks and see.
Just like this video where the show runner had an 8 watt monoblock and 160 watt monoblocks. And makes not about the difference in power.
"93dB @ 1watt
96dB @ 2 watts
99dB @ 4 watts
102dB@ 8 watts
105dB@ 16 watts "
Those numbers are nearly meaningless. For one thing, music isn't an RMS sine wave. It has a tremendous dynamic range. Then there's music's wide variation of energy content over frequency. For most program material - and this certainly applies to orchestra - a passage that generates 16 watts in the amplifier at 1kHz (1 kHz being the frequency for which most speaker systems are rated) will require much more power than that at lower frequencies to avoid clipping. In fact, an amplifier that creates 105 dB average SPL on music with a 93 dB speaker will likely need to be capable of producing 100 watts or better. And that's assuming the listener is sitting 1 meter away, a fact conveniently ignored by the "data" above. Move out to a realistic listening distance and you can easily double or triple that number.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
The distance from the speaker depends on the speaker too however. I took a measurement of the E at 1 meter and 2 meters and the volume at the SPL was virtually identical - a very slight half a dB drop off. Another speaker dropped by 4dB in the same room.
A stable impedance loudspeaker isn't requesting more power from the amplifier at different frequencies the way other speakers do. So a loudspeaker that is a flat 5 ohm speaker is 5ohms at 25hz and at 1khz. If this speaker is 92dB it is a VASTLY easier speaker to drive than a speaker that is 100dB sensitive but drop to 0.5ohms at 25hz through 100hz but is 9ohms the rest of the way. This speaker may play louder but it will suck anytime there is bass.
People who have not had direct experience with the AN J and the OTO specifically really have no truck with me. I lived with the combo for 13 years and had I not moved overseas I'd still have the combo. I listen to trance, metal, full scale classical, percussion. There was no issue with volume level, or bass.
At the California Audio Show the AN Room played as loud and louder with less distortion than pretty much any other room. SO you kind of have to believe what the ears are telling you. One of the other most powerful sounding rooms was sporting a 4 watt Whammerdyne 2a3 amp. And that amp was driving a pair of speakers with eight 15 inch woofers. Meanhwile the rooms sporting big Pass Labs amps for the most part sounded anemic.
And heard the AN rig. Plus I've heard An gear in a number of settings from home to storefronts including at True Sound who brought the rig to CAS7. Most importantly to me forming my opinion is that I owned the ANE Spe HE for a number of years and used it in my all AN system at home. Granted, the ANE isn't the ANJ, but they use the same drivers so I think there is a lot of similarity.
Anyway, I think both RGA and Triode are right. As Triode infers there must be plenty of distortion to reach, say, 100dB with an amp that puts out single digits cleanly into low 90's dB speakers. But, as I found at home, the speakers play at near insane levels without noticeable distortion on puny amps. I don't know why for sure, but getting to the OP's question, I suggest an AN amp for AN speakers.
Used conquest at 8watts with single 300b per channel should make you quite happy. Distortion free? No way. But happy.
As Triode puts it, there is a decided benefit from going to much higher sensitivity with tiny amps. That's why I got pulled into Altecs. But that doesn't change the fact that the AN speakers are satisfying with AN amps beyond what some might expect.
Best,
Doug
I just want to point out that 93dB/W/M is not "SET friendly." Your chip amp turns to mush at higher volumes because it's clipping. This is an indicator you'll need more power or higher efficiency for your preferred listening levels. I don't know how you arrived at 20W as the required power level, but I think that's incredibly optimistic for the scenario you're describing. Even a relatively high power SET needs 98-100dB/W/M minimum speakers for this job.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 08/21/17
I think the SET friendly claim on the AN-Js is that impedance is fairly stable at nominal 6 and minimum 5. Compared to Dynaudios they are sensitive. The Dynes need over 200 watts to shine.
I know the chip amp is a cheapie that has no power stiffening and starts clipping at 15% or so of claimed output. It is a nice way to put out some big horns and a car battery for a party in the middle of nowhere, or some low level listening indoors.
I used a couple different calculators to come up with the 20 watts. I figured Crown would want to sell you as much amp as they can. Their model with seating 2.5 meters away, 93db speakers, 95 db volume at the seating position and 3 db for overhead gives a 20 watt result.
I want to hear for myself if I think that the lowest power tube that works provides the best overall sound.
"Their model with seating 2.5 meters away, 93db speakers, 95 db volume at the seating position and 3 db for overhead gives a 20 watt result."20 watts won't produce clean 95 dB SPL average volume in this scenario for musical reproduction. Peak to average power of music far exceeds 3 dB. Check out the link below, particularly the section near the end titled "PEAK POWER VERSUS SPL."
FWIW, I'm not trying to tell you that the results of what you're proposing won't be satisfactory for your own personal listening preferences. I can only tell you that the combination of components you're describing won't approach realistic levels for orchestral playback. My own system at the moment consists of 4.5W/ch SETs and speakers that are 97-98 dB efficient in a fairly small living room. Maximum average SPL is far below the SS systems I owned years ago, and judicious use of the volume control is always required to avoid saturation. This limitation is much relieved with 25W/ch, and that's the minimum power level anyone should be recommending for use with 93 dB speakers.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Edits: 08/23/17
Triode - I'm not looking for 95db average volume. My base listening level for classical is 75db to 80db average. Giving 20 db for louder passages gets me to 95db and 3db for overhead.
My hearing is good for my age. I'm not interested in spending hours at a time at 95 db minimums.
My other system is a 225wpc 4 ohm PSAudio HCA with Dynaudios and a sub and it can play way too loud. Part of the design of the new system is to have a lower power rig to relearn about and compare. My last tube amp was a Fisher 101 that I traded in about 35 years ago on a 100wpc Mitsubishi PA and DA 10 combination.
I thought about a First Watt and then decided I would rather get back into electronics as a hobby.
Well Triode Kimgdom you have made me tale my own advice when I tell people to buy a preamp and have the ability to just connect different power amps for their strengths.
This is a nice solution and you can have it all. Romantic low powered tube amps, high power tube amps, SS amps of ridiculous power.
So the Audio Note M3 Phono arrives tomorrow with the Dac O.1x. The M8 will be a down the road thing. No taxes in Hong Kong sure saves money too.
Excellent! I'm in the process of building my own "ultra" high quality preamp at the moment. I think it's essential to get that out of the way first for a high end system. I didn't do that initially, and I regret it.
Hong Kong, eh? I've only ever traveled there by going through the airport. Lived in Nanjing nearly a year in '97, and have visited mainland China many times since then - Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu, Xian, etc. Really a different world...
Glad you found a process that works for you. I think you're on the right path!
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
You have to take your own advice sometimes and I have been screwing around too much with Chinese made gear not really going for what I want.
I went to the dealer to buy an M1 Phono and DAC. But as a good dealer does they get you to go up a level or two. I usually say level 3 is the sweet spot as prices skyrocket after level 3. I am trying to buy a house next summer and so going ridiculous on stereo gear is silly.
I lived in Wenzhou in Zeizang province for a year - trust me avoid this place. I am amazed how dirty it was. And still didn't rank in the ten dirties cities in China. Hangzhou which is a few hours away was great though - clean clear and beautiful. It's a country of opposites.
Much of western China is like that, too. One of our challenges during a trip to Chengdu and other parts of Sichuan Province a few years ago was simply finding clean places to eat. It was much worse than the eastern cities; filth and dirt everywhere. Yes, Hangzhou is a beautiful city, especially around West Lake. Lots of Chinese tourists and commercialism now, but that's the case nearly everywhere that's worth seeing. Even our favorite out-of-the-way places to access the Great Wall have become overrun. :)
Good luck with the gear!
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Ahh that's the part I missed - I would agree with you that if you are listening to full orchestral music and you are expecting the same level you get at such an event then small amps with 93db (or even 97db) in a medium/large room isn't going to happen.
I would go back to my altenrate suggestion of buying a preamp and then buying SS watts (which are cheap). Virtually any so called high end SS power amp from 10 years ago selling at car prices can be had for $2k or less now. So getting a 300 watt per channel amplifier is very easy to find. There were some Threshold monoblocks here for a few hundred bucks. Then for the rest of the music run the high quality less "pushy" sounding amplifiers.
One note I should personally make is that I live in Hong Kong where apartments are small albeit with high ceilings. And even in my room I am contemplating buying an M6 Phono preamp with Empress monoblocks (7 watts). On the other hand the Jinro/Tomei integrated is appealing at ~18 watts per channel.
My thinking (now that I read what music and level you demand) is somewhat more in line with you now as one day I will move back to Canada and will be in a larger room. As such - I am now more considering the Jinro/Tomei.
LOL - Damn You - I'm going to go audition the Jinro/Tomei again and bring some full tilt music :). Not really Dam You - The Jinro has called to me for 5 years. The 219IA was my poor man's Jinro...The Jinro is a poor man's Ongaku. But since the Jinro is the third closest thing to an Ongaku in existence (second being Tomei) then I'll have to put it back to the top of the list.
If you can find a pair used.
The Audio Note Quest (single 300B) or Conquest (paralleled 300B produce about double the power out) both sound great with the J's, but you won't find even a used one for $3K.
I figured the Quest would be the natural match. I've been watching for a couple of months now without seeing a pair that meets the budget. The manufactured amps that seem to meet the sound quality and price point are mostly EL34 PP amps.
Have you considered Bottlehead?
At this point I'm open to anything. I want to find the best fit for the speakers and the room. I see the most availability in 300B, but it is not a requirement. The Decware 34 and the Quicksilver horn monos get a lot of love. I don't want to get a pure triode that isn't arguably better than either of these.
I'm using a Bottlehead Paramount with 2A3s (about 3.5 W output) and they work GREAT with the kit version of the AN/E HE. The volume control at 65 will run my wife out of the room. So you should be good with 300Bs. AN speakers work great with SETs.
If you can DIY then there isn't a big reason to go commercial.
Testing speakers on a T-amp can give you some clues as to how they will do on low power, but a T-amp clips very abruptly and a 300B amp rated for similar power will deliver greater peak power with more finesse. Your room isn't big enough for you to need that kind of power unless you listen very loudly or the speaker sensitivity is grossly overstated (both are unlikely in your case).
The 6 Ohm speaker thing is a little bit annoying. If there's an AN amp that's made to go with these, that might be a nice idea. Otherwise you might want to hit up Sowter Transformer to see if they can make you an output transformer with an 8 Ohm secondary tapped at 4, 6, and 8 Ohms.
The option that I would go with would be to select a hotter operating point for a tube like the 300B and aim to get 10-12 watts. Yeah, you'll get more distortion and you'll be running the tube a little harder, but just buy a new pair of EH300B's every 3 to 5 years and don't worry about it. With the extra power, running your 6 Ohm speakers on a 4 Ohm wired transformer will trade some of the available power for lower distortion, and you should be in good shape.
With your budget, spending $800 on a pair of output transformers is a very real proposition!
I like the idea of a single 12 watt tube. I think the times when 25 watts are needed will be rare.
The cheap chip amp has a nice first half watt. After that it goes away fast. Something like a Patek gainclone would be better.
I agree the 6 ohm speaker is odd. As far as I can tell AudioNote does not make an amp with a 6 ohm tap. I found one amp with a 5 ohm output. I was thinking that some of the smaller companies might do a custom transformer for me.
I've seen a couple of models with supertransformers using triode strapped EL34s that are interesting. The top AudioNote EL34 kit is rated a level 3 in their system. This may be a demonstration of the transformer being more important than the tube.
Both the transformer and the tube are very important. You can spend a lot of money on a pair of traansformers, but if you use them in conjunction with a tube that isn't super linear (IE that makes excessive THD on its own), then you've made quite a compromise.
For your situation, just setting the amp up for 4 Ohm operation will work nicely with what you're trying to do. (Just be sure you don't end up with OT's that have 4, 8, and 16 Ohm taps on a single winding)
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