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In Reply to: RE: This long thread just tells me what commercial SETs aren't.... posted by Caucasian Blackplate on September 02, 2017 at 08:22:52
Dennis has already given his own menu for high end sound - very different from us in the all-DHT crowd I belong to. And others will have their particular menus as well.
But it still remains a fact that the "boutique" high end low-volume builds are very expensive compared to the costs of building your own. Especially when you want to specify stuff like amorphous core OPTS.
So my point is that commercial amps fall behind DIY builds in a cost-for-cost comparison. Partly, of course, because of the overheads in getting the amps out to the customer.
Follow Ups:
You have that right-- it makes sense.The better answer is that DIY people in general often think that
they can out-engineer the engineers at Commercial venues, or can
buy parts cheaper than they can. Both are often untrue.What the DIY person can do is decide what he really wants, and
then attack that in his own preferred way.While I respect this very much and have done a lot of it myself,
eventually you will want the best that can be built.Now, whether you're doing pure DIY, part DIY/Commercial,
or ALL Commercial, you will run into reality:
GOOD costs MONEY!NOT wasted money, but money that you HAVE to spend-- if you want
the performance.DIY people have two advantages, and only these two: (1) their
labor is free- to them, that is. How much it costs their wives
and friends remains to be seen. (2) DIY does not have to be
shipped, guaranteed, or lose money playing around with SOME
(only a few, usually) customers who are idiots, equipment
destroyers, cheats, or dunces at packing and shipping
electronics-- or in understanding how they work,
or how to build a good music system around them.Some people can take THE BEST audio equipment,
and get BAD sound! Manufacturers secretly hate these
idiots because they often smear good products to their
friends or the public.All of this costs money-- the DIY person can usually
avoid all this.BUT-- does the best DIY compare to the best commercial?
Sorry, but I've never heard that happen-- ever.-Dennis-
Edits: 09/02/17 09/02/17 09/02/17
This was well said. I would add a point or two about DIY:
First - there is DIY bias that "because I built it it sounds better" and because "I bought a part that seems more sophisticated/better/heavier it sounds better" - the latter has not been the case IME. I have heard DIY speakers and amp that cost the same to the consumer as a finished product with arguably lesser parts quality that nevertheless sounded better to a lot better than the DIY.
To be fair I did hear an absolutely jaw dropping great DIY system in HK but it still cost the fellow $50,000US to DIY his product. So while tremendous it wasn't exactly cheap.
Second: Resale value is next to nothing in comparison to production products. I continually beat the drum over net cost. Ultimately NET cost is your overall cost so when you compare say a $5k DIY project that you can only sell for $500 - you don't compare that to a $5k production product. You may have to compare it to an $18,000 production unit that you can sell for $13,500. The costs for both are $4,500. This is the sort of cost to cost value that people should be making when the look to these things.
I do agree one of the big pluses to DIY may be that you can sort of build something to your individual desires - but then often I read DIYers having to "choose" their transformers or capacitors from a given manufacturer. Is the DIYer winding and building his own originally designed transformer for the given job or buying one from XYZ and are they designing and building their own capacitors and resistors and solder wire or are they going to parts express and buying Mundorfs?
Lastly, one of the advantages for some DIYers or people who just buy very rare hard to audition products is that there is no recourse in forum banter.
They own a product that no one else can hear so they come onto a forum and say - hey XYZ is vastly superior to "enter any product sold as a retail item) and there is no way to audition and make that comparison for yourself. There was a guy called soundmind on these forums who modified Bose 901 speakers and told everyone that every production speaker was total crap and only his DIY product sounded good. So where is the recourse? No one can audition it and prove him wrong or at least disagree with him.
Many of the SET making companies are DIY at heart anyway - They are building and designing products but they do have a team of people usually and they crosscheck with other products on the market. I know Peter Q at Audio Note buys up some of the top competition on the market at very high prices to listen and hear what they are doing. Not every company does that but it is being done.
In fact some of the DIYers our there should build their best amplifier and lend it to Peter and let him and their team of engineers listen to the product (or other SET manufacturers). He has hired people based on their efforts and chances are you will get paid more than whatever it is you're doing now.
Jobs are out there if you're product truly stands up to manufactured products.
Yours is a great and welcome understanding of the
whole affair.
All I can say to you and others is-- if you can,
attend RMAF 2017. It gets better as time flies by--
I look forward to hearing some great systems there
this year.
RMAF 2017 is in Denver's Marriott Tech Center Hotel
on Oct. 6, 7, and 8.
-Dennis-
LASTLY, the enjoyment derived from building the bloody thing yourself and then, just enjoying THE music.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
It is also, solving the engineering problems to actually do better. What causes the shortfalls with the usual way? How to solve them w/o introducing others. It is a fine sport.
Unlike a Salesman, I have no issue saying that I find something else better...at that point it is time to re-examine how it was done, and then top it. Have not had so much difficulty with it. I also have not built so much of late...:)
Guess maybe I'll try power triodes with grid current this time...and yes, I will run right up close to its plate ratings, because if I don't they don't last as long. Or sound as good.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Sure, there are some DIYers and builds like that, some that are not and some with a few of those traits.
Your opinions re DIY serve your role as a reviewer well.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Actually I am fortunate enough to work at a magazine that gives me pretty open autonomy to review whatever I wish - so if someone wishes to send me a DIY project they feel will trounce any production product I am quite interested and my magazine would let me review it (because we don't do pay to play like other magazines).
For instance I just reviewed King's KingKo KA-101 which is his personal project trying to make an affordable amp that sounds good and does a lot of things. This is a one man operation. Essentially he designed and built the thing from the ground up using his Chinese contacts to put his design into practice.
I review that sort of thing because IMO there is far more value in what he is selling than there is in most competing products in the mainstream at more money.
I can't praise a product that I can't hear. I have often recommended products like ANKits and Bottlehead as a money saving solution to finished products producers. Even with the speakers they sell the kit with and without the cabinet so if you can build your own cabinet you can save even more money.
A KIT I suppose would be viewed as only "partial" DIY though.
Still, your opinions re DIY serve you well as a reviewer of - by a large margin - commercial products. Your language bears this out: "...send me a DIY project they feel will trounce any production product..." Trounce? Any?
The King's KingKo KA-101 is a commercial product from a one-man company - that's not DIY in the sense we a discussing here.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
I'd love to meet you-- maybe talk a bit.
Find me in Room 3017 at RMAF 2017.
-Dennis-
Hi Dennis
Unfortunately my main career is as a teacher out here in Hong Kong - where they pay us teachers where we can afford to buy audio equipment :) unfortunately that only leaves me with a small window of holiday. So I can generally only cover audio shows during Mid July to mid August.
I was able to cover the California Audio Show in Oakland and I believe Constantine has booked it for the same time next year and I can make that show as well if the dates are in fact the same. So if you go to that show next year let me know - I should be there. Although I will not be taking the Bart alone from SFO to Oakland Coliseum at Midnight like last time!
I agree in principle Andy: "But it still remains a fact that the "boutique" high end low-volume builds are very expensive compared to the costs of building your own. Especially when you want to specify stuff like amorphous core OPTS."OTOH, some DIY builds are very expensive(!) for the quality of end product. My current project - currently held up due to custom chassis design/fabrication - started out as a moderately expensive build... but is growing into a very expensive (by my standards), plain-looking build that may very well not justify its DIY cost. Thankfully, it is about the learning, craft, enjoyment, engagement etc.
There is plenty of expensive DIY (or DIYmercial) junk out there though.
Cheers,
91
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 09/02/17
Dennis writes:
"DIY people have two advantages, and only these two: (1) their labor is free to them. How much it costs their wives and friends remains to be seen. (2) DIY does not have to be shipped or guaranteed. All of this costs money-- the DIY person can usually avoid all this."Yes, of course! And as RGA says, you have to factor in the low resale value of DIY builds if you are ever going to sell, though to counteract this the average commercial amp also has a pretty sharp falloff in value when used, even though the resale value remains intrinsically higher.
"BUT-- does the best DIY compare to the best commercial? Sorry, but I've never heard that happen-- ever."
I can well see that this would be true for you, Dennis, because your own particular theories involve a large amount of actual construction detail and layout. But in the larger DIY world where the circuit and quality of parts are the crucial factors, there is nothing to say that a really good - and tried and tested - circuit, built with high quality parts, and well constructed, will not perform to commercial standards or out-perform a number of commercial amps.
Several circuits have had many, many builds already. And the circuits - and indeed the PCBs where these are used - are constantly being uprated. A good example is the circuit I use - Bartola gyrator DHT first stage into PSE 4P1L into amorphous OPT, all in filament bias. Rod's filament regs are now in their 7th version, having been updated for well over 7 years, and the Bartola gyrator is now in version 2, or version 3 considering add-on boards. Several builds around the world and a constantly evolving blog on the Bartola website for support and user experiences. The same with Bottlehead and K&K, to name two other examples with good website, forum and user support.
RGA says, "Many of the SET making companies are DIY at heart anyway", and I'm sure this is true. Usually a talented designer or design team goes through a large number of prototypes and then decides on a build that will work commercially. But many DIY designs also - as above - go through several iterations. What they don't usually do - as Dennis points out - is have to deal with all the users (plus "idiots") who then road test the stuff and feed back any construction glitches, which is where the construction itself and any accompanying safety issues that have to be engineered in becomes important.
In theory, DIY amps can outperform commercial ones. That's the theory, and as RGA says there are a number of existing amps to prove this. In practice construction comes into it, and how important this factor is depends on the actual skill and experience of the constructor, which can vary considerably. You expect good construction from commercial amps, but in the end you still have to balance that against the theoretical and possible advantages of state of the art design and part quality. An EL34 SET amp doesn't compare with a 300b or 2a3 in my universe, and I wouldn't even stop there.
Edits: 09/03/17
Honest stuff. Kudos for your insights.
I'm getting ready for RMAF 2017, so will
be signing off here for a while.
I think you will enjoy RMAF this year--
it looks competitive like never before--
it should have good sound in several
demo rooms.
-Dennis-
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