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In Reply to: RE: Help me pick SET monoblocks posted by RGA on August 22, 2017 at 21:20:11
We did a shootout recently between three different AN models (Oto SE Signature, P1SE and Conqueror Silver) and a KR Audio VA350i on a pair of Odeon Rigoletto/2 loudspeakers. An Einstein "The Tube" preamp was used on all amps except the Oto SE Signature becuase it is an integrated (KR uses only a passive pre so volume was set to maximum and it is essentially a power amp with switching). The source was a Lampizator Golden Atlantic being fed by USB using Roon and HQPlayer. Cables were Goertz silver foil RCAs and NBS Monitor IV XLR interconnects. Speaker cables were Goertz AG-1 silver foil.
The results were as follows:
The Conqueror sounds warm and pleasant but quite wooly and indistinct in the bass. Foreground has nice 3d but sense of space is truncated compared to other amps on test. The output transformers are, despite being double C core, are quite small on this model for some reason and are for sure limiting its potential. Great at one or two things but poor in other areas leaves a very uneven listening experience. This amp seems to be poor value. I would much rather have a VAC 30/30 Class A 300B PP amp than this amp.
P1SE similar character in some ways to the Conqueror but less syrupy and a bit more taught in the bass. Reasonable but not exceptional resolution and detail. Soundstage and imaging less palpable than Conqueror but not quite as truncated. Mediocre all around...maybe fine at $1000 but a PureSound A30 will give it a run for the money even though it is PP and not SET.
The Oto SE Signature is something more interesting. First, it has tight, well defined bass from obviously superior output transformers from the other two AN amps on test. It also carves out a wide and deep soundstage with good resolution and extended high frequencies...I can imagine this is a significant upgrade over the non-signature Oto, which is essentially the P1SE mentioned above. The only thing that left a bit of a question mark is the tonal balance, which was slightly lean overall. Not bad but also not quite right. Imaging was also quite palpable and overall resolution was high. For the asking price this is only one of the three AN amps that I would recommend to audition against similarly priced competition.
You can forget, however, it being competitive with the likes of the KR Audio, which out resolves the Oto, out performs it in the low end, outperforms it for Soundstage resolution and imaging precision and palpability and outperforms it for dynamics. Tonality of the KR is better balanced overall as well. Now the KR VA350i is over $12K so it should do better.
An interesting comparison is with the Ayon 300B (early 2000s model), using 32B output tubes. This was about 7.5K new (1.8K used). That on the same system had significantly better tone than Oto Signature but the bass was inferior but better than Conqueror...again I put it down to the output transformers, which are not so big on the Ayon 300B. Overall, Oto is competitive here but not clearly ahead.
With the Crossfire III the results are similar to KR. Better everything and perhaps even more transparent than KR. Bass is very solid and resolved right up the whole frequency range. (Crossfire is 45Kg...a full 15 more than the Ayon 300B and most of that is in the output iron...and 9Kg more than KR). Transparency is world class. Dynamics are superb. An award winning amp and rightly so.
Finally, the JJ322. This amp has huge Double C core output trannies for what is only a 20 watt amp. Not quite as transparent as Crossfire but close. Softer highs well resolved bass with decent impact and very nice soundstage and imaging capabilities. Dynamics are good on high sensitivity speakers but not so great on normal dynamic speakers. Great for 93db and up. Can be found for only about $2K used and is a hell of a lot of amp for the money.
So, other than maybe the Oto SE Signature, I would not recommend any AN amps for under 3K. The Quest would be interesting but only as a Silver Signature version and that costs quite a lot and would have a tough time against the Crossfire or KR (see review in TNT on original Crossfire and what he says about it vs. Quest).
LM219ia is a good amp...almost bought one but got Wall monos instead (then Crossfire). LM219ia is good, a bit warm but powerful sounding. Not super resolved but pretty nice. Crossfire is far more resolving. Still, I can understand why someone would want LM219ia. I would actually be more interested in the LM210 300B amp. I would never pay the full retail for them given the drop in value...this is true for most hifi though and not just chinese stuff.
Follow Ups:
Found it useful.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
The AN SORO SE Signature is a whole different beast than the AN OTO SE Signature. It sports paralleled 5881/6L6GB utput tubes and puts out about 18W. It's a pretty rare beast and quite expensive, just like the OTO SE Sig. The far less expensive P2 SE and PP power amps, lack the refinement of the SORO SE Sig, but they are both fine amps at reasonable prices.
That could be an interesting amp, I agree. Like I said, of the three AN amps on test to me the Oto Signature was clearly the best overall. It wasn't tonally lush by any means but it was also not threadbare. Transparency was excellent and dynamics were solid.
I am not so sure about the value of the level 1 AN gear. The zero gear seems like good value because it is actually quite cheap. The level 1 gear is already not so cheap and I think has tough competition from the chinese.
The thing is you should compare new prices to new prices (and I mean new price to new price). Comparing a $10k amp that is so great that 10 years later you can buy it for $1500 should tell you that it wasn't all that good to start with. I can sell my 14 year old OTO for $600 more than I paid for it in 2003. I know it doesn't occur to you that the reason for that is that people actually WANT OTO amps and the fact that they can sell the SAME amp for 20+ years means that if it was good in 1995 it should still be good in 2017. Unlike most other stuff that is good for a four year review cycle and then dropped (killing all resale value). It's also why SS is almost always worthless on the second hand market. Buying some amp using some trashy torroid transformer design is a waste.
I tend to agree with you on some AN gear - not everything they make is "the best" whatever that means. There are still cost considerations to make and Andy Whittle in the video above points that out. But the heart is in the right place and the important bits are there in a complete level Zero system.
I myself preferred going with the 0.1x DAC ($1450) than the DAC 1x($1990) or 2.1xDAC ($3200). Both are better - but the "leap" better DAC in my opinion is the DAC 3.1x Balanced at $7600.
How about amps? The P1SE is $2900 and the P2SE is $3,500. I find them slightly high because Empress Monoblocks which to me sound quite vastly better starts at $5700 - for 2 monoblocks! But they'll retain their value.
I don't think the prices are particularly high - the M1 phono preamp (which provides a damn good phono stage) is $2,200 ($1,800 for a Line version). The M2 Line is only $3,000. These are hardly outlandish prices. You can spend significantly more on the likes of a Prima Luna, Rogue Audio, Line Magnetic, Mei Xing, Ming Da, and you're coming out behind on Sound Quality and You REALLY lose on the net cost side.
Why? unlike the Chinese - you can sell your M2 in 10 years for what you paid. So when you start talking about price talk about the net price - the AN costs $0 (inflation only) for 10 years versus any of these Chinese amps that in ten years you might sell for 1/4 if you're lucky (heck even the Ayon you noted gets you at best 25% of what you paid). So $3k Chinese amp you might sell for $500-$1,000. Your cost is $2,000 to $2500 versus $0 for the Audio Note.
So which costs more?
I have owned the AN K/Spe, J/Spe, TT2/Arm3/IQ3, AN E Lexus Hemp. All of these products I sold and got my money back on or sold for more than I paid. AN is looking pretty darn affordable - why the hell do you think I like it so much - I am a cheap ass MOFO and I like free. And Sound Quality trumps but only if we compare NET cost. If one amp A is $8k and is only worth $1,500 after 10 years you paid $6,500. If you could buy a $20k amp that has vastly better parts and sounds better for $20k keep it 10 years and you sell it for $13,500 - you still paid the NET cost of $6,500 but for ten years you got a much better sounding amplifier - then it is pretty clear that you and anyone else should buy amplifier B over amplifier A. Better amp, better quality, better sound, same overall cost to you. (opportunity cost aside).
McIntosh also resells well and sounds mediocre....so what?
LOL - Only certain McIntosh sells well on the second hand market. Soundhounds sold an $8000 MSRP amp for $2000 (and it was STILL a current model). Some hack on a forum got pissed at me and phoned them to which they confirmed - that's sucky resale value. But yes you are correct that some of their older tube amps MC275 do well second hand.There are plenty of nostalgic collector tube amps and LS-3/5a, Quad ESL 57 type speakers. Reminders of childhood dreams or whatnot. Again different thing. AN isn't the only brand that does well second hand but of current produced gear there ain't much. I have sold an AN-K/Spe, J/Spe, Turntable (TT2/arm3/IQ3) and E/Lx - in all cases I got 100-120% of what I paid for them. And I can sell my OTO for 20% more than I paid. This again is different than buying something from the 50s and getting more than you paid - not apples to apples. Show me some integrated amps and speakers that sold NEW in 2000-2005 that you can sell now for more than it sold for then.
Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - they're not my cup of tea either BUT they're successful and have been for decades. Plenty of reviewers like the sound of it better than most everything else. I don't love them and you don't love them but it is wrong to think "If I like it it is good, and if I don't it it stinks" It stinks to you.
I wax poetic on AN and some other brands and sure I will tell someone that I like an AN E a helluva lot more than a B&W N801 but the N801 isn't crap because I don't like it. It's not "not successful" because I don't like it. I am not going to deny B&W, McIntosh, Magnepan and numerous others their due just because I don't happen to enjoy their takes on music reproduction.
Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!
PS: My Wharfedale Vanguard (E series) from the 70s and 80s has a company that does nothing else but restore this ONE line of Wharfedales. That in no way makes them "still relevant or still on the map" - My dealer SOundhounds is a full (and I mean FULL) restoration and repair outlet - they can repair and restore EVERYTHING including any Apogee, Quad, Acoustat) That does not mean any of these old things are in any way shape or form on the map. People are merely getting their broken down speakers fixed. No more to read into it than that.
See Wharfedale restoration -
Edits: 08/26/17 08/27/17
Dude, I can get all kinds of AN gear for WAY less than it retails for...just because you found some suckers doesn't mean we all are. Every pieces of gear we demoed recently was available for at least 30% under retail (the used gear for less than 50%). Audiomarkt is full of AN stuff selling for way under retail.
I can buy an Oto for 1500 CHF. The new price is well over 4000. Typical markdown with age. If it was only 1500 new 15 years ago then AN has been pretty aggressive in its price hikes.
You are talking out your ass if you think most AN gear is selling for more than it costs. Does it lose less value than some brands, maybe.
"Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - "
What personal opinion? I give you an example of gear that holds its value well that's all. You keep blah blahing but you miss the point that I was responding to your comment about success financially and sound...now you want to backtrack and give all your rationalizations...save it you made the remark live with it.
"Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!"
If it was then you would own B&W speakers and McIntosh amps. Sales comes down to dealer bias as well and margins they get from manufacturers. If you think otherwise, go into the business and see. One brand will be pushed over others with nothing to do with sound but profits. Simple economics that eludes your grasp.
No one will ever take an Apogee to your Soundhound nonsense.
Well we disagree - I have heard the Ayon Crossfire, Einstein's preamps (with AN amps and others) The AN dealer in Hong Kong is also the Einstein importer and listening to an Einstein set-up Versus an AN system and its a total drubbing in favour of AN.I have also heard the VAC 30/30, Kronzilla DX monoblocks, an Odeon speaker that was so well designed for $10,000 ($12,500 in today's money) that Stereophile gave it one of the worst ever reviewers in the history of that magazine. Indeed, according to Stereophile they had 7 dealers in North America and now have? Hmm I see zero dealers. So the new models didn't go over much better.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/951/index.html
Start with a good preamp. Fred Crowder on our staff replaced his top of the line Einstein preamp with a vastly better sounding Audio Note preamp (the M3 would have been good enough though). Power amps can't fix upstream or downstream failures.
Comparing different tube amps and designs preamps and power amps - is pointless as well - the OTO is an integrated not having the advantage of a $20,000 preamp. The preamp BY FAR has more influence on amplifier sound than a power amp especially in an integrated. The OTO's preamp is an M1 sharing a box with the P1SE. The OTO Sig has a C-Core and I don't know if there is yet a P1SE Sig but if so then that would be the power amp equivalent. The LM 219IA sounds otherworldy better when it is used just as a power amp. It's preamp stage is limited to a 12AX7 and very mediocre ALPs Blue Potentiometer. Bypass this and the LM 219IA notches up another whole league.Then you're comparing a DHT 300B SET, to an EL84SEP and others.
Tube amplifiers of different tube types are designed to cater to an individual's tastes. I know you can't answer a direct question but do you understand that there are people who have tube output preferences? Since you won't answer the question I will just inform you that YES in fact people buy a 2A3 over a 300B because they like the sound of 2A3 over 300B - and vice versa - and EL84 over EL34 or KT88 or 45 or 211 and on it goes.
The Meishue Silver Signature is a 300B that does some things better than the Jinro 211. So you make your choice and your sacrifices. I auditioned the 2 watt 45 tube from Audio Note and it does some incredible things around voices that is not captured by either the 2a3 or their 300B but it also needs a much more sensitive speaker than what AN currently makes - and yet STILL people will choose the 45 because what it can do nothing else can do and if you listen to that music and don't require bass at level this is a phenomenal sounding amp. And quite inexpensive for AN.
Even within tube types with different brands they exhibit a certain sound characteristic - and there are bass strong 300B and gentler lighter sounding 300B amps.
This is why most tube amp makers make several tube amps for virtually the same price. Not because the more expensive one is necessarily better but because it physically requires a bigger more expensive part to make the amplifier. 211s can kill you they need to be made beefier and safer to not burn your house down. That costs a lot more money than making a 300B or an EL84.
At the AN Dealer in HK I have auditioned 300B and 2A3 back to back - both amps are basically the exact same price - same size - other than the tube you'd think it was the same product. And they are night and day different sounding and they each do some things better than the other - and you make your choice. More truth or more beauty and since AN has been selling both output tube types for a long time each person makes their choice as to which sounds better to them. I hate to break the news to you but neither is the absolute right one and neither is the absolute more accurate one to all people. I may think the 2A3 walks all over the 300B but the next person may think the absolute opposite.
You want to do amp comparisons - you compare an 8 watt AN 300B to a brand X 8 watt 300B (using the exact same tubes) with the exact same cables at the exact same volume level because AN and other 300B will have different gain characteristics. It's BS comparing EL84 and 300B and 211 and whatever else.
You don't compared an EL84 integrated at $6k to a $20k preamp and $8k($10k+ in today's dollars) 300b power amp and then say - gee the OTO isn't as good and can't beat $20k gear (although I have heard the OTO Sig and the The Tube Preamp and the Ayon so I would argue that as well).
And the evaluation is with a speaker the OP doesn't own? So where is the relevance? I say get gear specifically designed for his speaker and you present comparisons with a whole bunch of different mixed and matched stuff at all over the map prices. Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers. If they happen to suck or they happen to sound heavenly with some other brand of speaker or cable - then tough luck or that's nice but they probably don't care either way since they can't keep up with all the orders anyway.
I know you have an AN axe to grind but really?
Edits: 08/23/17
First, I can assure you I have no axe to grind with AN...especially not their electronics. Their speakers fail to live up to the hype from my and a lot of my colleagues ears. Second, you have never heard an Odeon speaker, have you? I can assure you that the company is not suffering from having no presence in the US...they just launched a new line of very expensive speakers. The speakers in question, the Rigoletto, has a powerful bass such that my friend does not use his big SVS sub anymore, which he used to use with his Reference 3a speakers. I, on the other hand, have head AN speakers many times as we have a local dealer and have heard all levels of E. I know very well the differences about which I speak and you do not.
Third. what you think of the Einstein is immaterial and it is a very good sounding preamp that is widely regarded and highly respected...what Fred Crowder did doesn't concern me...maybe he has a lot of money and was bored? I never said it was the best preamp but it is a fundamentally transparent and dyanmic preamp that is also well balanced tonally. So your comment is way off base regardig the Einstein preamp...it is a good preamp...very good.
Fourth, the Einstein was used with all amps except the Oto Sig...this means that the other two amps were on the same footing as the KR audio amp. We did not feed the Einstein into the Oto for gain reasons...plus that is not how he would have used the Oto if he would have wanted to keep it. Oto doesn't have a preamp bypass like the LM219ia so you have to go through the integrated input, which means now two selector switches and two volume controls in the signal path...not the best idea if it can be avoided.
Now, with that out of the way I will continue.
The whole shootout occurred because a friend of mine was thinking about buying one of the three AN amps in question. He already owned the KR Audio amp. He wanted me to come over and help him decide which, if any, of the three AN amps he should keep.
We were comparing SET amps (Oto is wired in triode so it is a triode amp that is using pentodes wired in triode) on sensitive, easy load speakers. No apologies need to be made for the type of SET.
Your question is pretty silly. Of course different output tubes will have different signatures. What you don't seem to get is that a designer can make a 300B sound like pretty much anything he wants. I have heard 300Bs sound lean and tight, warm and mushy, bold and powerful, soft and delicate and so on. This far outweighs the selection of the tube and if someone prefers a given tube from the same designer it is probably due to the way the amp was designed rathe than the tube type.
Given that the P1SE and the Oto are nearly the same amp and they sounded profoundly different mainly because of the output transformer and perhaps the passive parts upgraded as well. You would not know they both used an EL84 based on sound alone. I have heard 211 amps sound incredibly transparent and open and warm and woolly. You would have never thought they both used 211s heard blind. A NAT SE1 sounds nothing at all like a Kondo Ongaku.
I have an Aries Cerat Diana integrated amp that is using DHP (direct heated pentodes, wired in triode) and all three tubes can be biased independently and over a reasonably wide range. You can shape the sound how you like practically. This is the one of the most transparent amps I know of and with authority that I never heard from any 25 watt amp...the LM219 is a toy by comparison (sonically and literally).
People tend to fall in love with a particular implementation of a given tube and then tend to stretch that over the whole of implementations of that tube. This is a false way to think of this. You don't care all that much for AN 300B designs but they should not be taken as representative of ALL 300B designs...they are not.
Sure, some characteristics are present but they are swamped by design in most cases for the final sound...especially the output transformer.
People like the 45 sound because the output transformer requirements are modest so it is easier to make a good output transformer that leads to better sound. 211 is a pain because it has high impedance and needs a lot of iron and then very special winding techniques not to lose hte highs. A 45 has not such concerns. NAT makes a very transparent sound 211 amp. Aries Cerat uses the 813, which is a bit transmitting pentode and their amps are even more transparent...OTL like but without the OTL tonal signature. However, this requires an 18Kg (yes 18) output transformer and very special winding to keep the high frequency resolution and extension.
There is so much you are simply ignorant about in amp design that you then have no choice but to oversimplify with "this tube type sounds like this and that one sounds like that etc."
I have said many times that ANs amps with their bigger C core trannies sound a lot better than the ones with their shitty little EI core trannies. Not that EI core is bad...many companies make very good ones...but AN uses tiny little things that are not able to maintain low distortion in the bass and create a muddy resolution and overly warm tone. Tubes are not inherently "warm" sounding...this is largely an artifact of design.
A 211 amp costs a lot to make mainly because it requires a larger power supply and needs much larger output transformers with special winding to deal with the large core and a lot of wire to deal with the high impedances (around 10K ohms) that 211s have. 300Bs have a much lower impedance, much lower current requirements and because of lower power a much smaller core output tranny.
"At the AN Dealer in HK I have auditioned 300B and 2A3 back to back - both amps are basically the exact same price - same size - other than the tube you'd think it was the same product. And they are night and day different sounding and they each do some things better than the other - and you make your choice. "
Again, down to design more than the output tube. It is probably possible to make them sound very similar but then why would you want to do that if you are trying to offer people sound choices?
"You want to do amp comparisons - you compare an 8 watt AN 300B to a brand X 8 watt 300B (using the exact same tubes) with the exact same cables at the exact same volume level because AN and other 300B will have different gain characteristics. It's BS comparing EL84 and 300B and 211 and whatever else."
How is that any more BS than you comparing a 300B and 2A3 from AN? Hint, it's not. In that system, with those ancillaries and those speakers it was a perfectly valid comparison...in the end the KR stayed and the three AN amps sent packing. An Ayon 300B amp was also sent packing. We set the levels to be equal...nothing more need be done but let the amps speak for themselves.
"although I have heard the OTO Sig and the The Tube Preamp and the Ayon so I would argue that as well)."
You haven't heard them together and with these speakers.
"Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers."
Do they? What a bunch of nonsense...
Finally, as I said, the Oto was not bad at all but not the equal of the KR when driven either with the Einstein or directly from the Golden Atlantic; however, the owner fully intends to use the Einstein as that brings more to the sound overall. The P1SE and Conqueror tells what happens when an inadequate output transformer is used...boring.
I know you are a fanboy...but really?
"Audio Note designs their 300B to work specifically FOR Audio Note speakers."
Do they? What a bunch of nonsense...
I have also found this be true, not just for speakers, but also preamps. I was also told by AN that I shouldn't "upgrade" some of the electrolytic caps and resistors on Conqueror Silver because it would "throw it out of balance". What I heard was far different from the "lovely sound" for which AN is so well known. It sounded more accurate, more robust and dyanmic.
IF this is true then it means that the gear is strongly voiced and cannot be considered a neutral communicator of recorded signals, IMO.
I have heard the non-silver Conqueror and the Conqueror Silver...neither was what I would call a very good amplifier. Ok in the mids and a bit soft in the highs but rather woolly in the bass.
Some Kaisei electrolytic caps, better AN PS caps, and a few strategically placed non-magnetic silver caps cleared up the two problems you mentioned. My speakers may have helped, Tonian Labs. But yes, in the AN line, this is a "budget" amp. I guess the price in the US is between $6-7K. not sure.
Perhaps bass clarity is not a priority for you?
See its funny. If Fred replaces an Einstein with AN...Fred being a reviewer I can site as a real person and one can read his review of the comparison...well he only did so because he was bored. When the HK Einstein dealer buys AN for his own house and all the other people working there and NOT an Einstein let me guess he's wrong too.But, when it's YOU and your mysterious buddies then they are all of course perfect decision makers and infallable and never wrong.
PS, judging sound quality has absolutely no relation to being an engineer.
I just spent this afternoon listening to a complete Einstein flagship system and KR recently. Meh.
The M3 eats the Einstein for lunch. IMO. I stress IMO. Doesn't mean Einstein sucks it means I preferred the M3 in a big way over it.
I already told you which Odeon I heard so why go down that road again.
Stereophile sums it up nicely and correctly. If they're such great quality speaker line why would all 7 dealers dump them? People came in and heard them and all bought something else because the something else was clearly better.
If Odeon was in fact better they would have 7 dealers now and perhaps more since 2003 if they were prized by anyone.
I mean since our discussions back in the day, AN has gone from 1 plant to 4 and quintupled their workforce.
So doing the math on the audiophile world market is on my side, not yours. My opinions on sound quality held. Yours went out of business.
And yes AN amps come in different transformer levels based on price. That's fine. No one should expect massive 50hib c core etc etc in a $1500 amp. KR sells amps well above $40,000. Ayon in today's dollars would be $12000 - the OTO SE is $6k. I mean it's nonsensical.
Lastly this is what makes me wonder how Berkely gives out degrees like cracker jack.""Third. what you think of the Einstein is immaterial""
Actually it is material to me when I am spending money. Your opinion on Einstein is absolutely not one wit more material than mine. You are the LAST person I would go to for advice on anything audio related.
""it is a very good sounding preamp that is widely regarded and highly respected...what Fred Crowder did doesn't concern me.""
See anyone with a science degree or any degree can't possibly make such retarded arguments. It baffles me that Berkley has turned into a degree Pez dispensary?
Your arguments would have gotten you laughed out of any basic logic 101 course.
Here is why you are an abject failure at science. Berkley should request their degree back - Sagan is rolling in his grave. This is your continual argument every time we go round.
A) Einstein is widely regarded as good. So because Morricab likes Einstein then Einstein and the review press that support it is good.
Can you not see why you are hopeless at basic logic? No? Still no?
Let's spell it out so even a Berkley grad can understand. X is good because it gets good reviews and is highly regarded - that is Morricab's logic argument.
If X is true(good) then if Y gets good reviews (and far more of them) and is highly regarded (arguably more highly regarded) then basic logic dictates that Y is just as good if not even better - regardless of what ANY one individual thinks. It is objectively and logically true that if X is good Y is just as good (if not better).
Why is Y better than X? If it can be established that Y exceeds the criteria of X. Thus, if X gets 5 great reviews and one reviewer buys it - it is a highly regarded product.
If Y gets 20 great reviews and 4 reviewers buy it and Y also sells many times more of them (to audiophiles with serious money) then it can be safely argued that Y is more highly regarded. It doesn't matter if RGA or Morricab like X or Y or one over the other. Being a quasi decent scientist you take your own self bias (opinion) the F out of the equation and you OBJECTIVELY look at the data.
Doing something dumb like citing Bose sales is also logically vapid because Bose isn't in the same sphere of the target market (audiophiles) - Bose sells to GQ buyers and non audiophiles. So while they sell the most they are not selling to audiophiles. And even if one insists on keeping Bose sales as an argument then it still doesn't help the initial argument and is even worse logically because it would only mean that Bose has to be considered good like X and Y.
Example
I am not a fan of Magnepan sound (it does zilch for me and it fatigues me (at least the .6 series) but I am not mentally retarded so I don't say - Magnepan sucks - it may suck to me but I can admit the speaker brand is excellent based on the fact that it is successful and has sold for decades and has a huge vocal fanbase of lovers.I am in no way bothered by Magnepan fans - I am curious as to why you get tyrannical when someone likes anything you don't like though. PS it's quite fine that you don't like AN - just like I don't care for Magnepan - it's a shame you're not big enough to admit they are well reviewed, highly regarded and very successful - it's like you can't admit that 2+2 equals 4.
I don't get into this argument to defend Audio Note or tell you that you should buy it over whatever you like - I get into it not to convert you - I just don't get why you can't admit that just because you don't like it you can't be big enough to admit they are highly regarded, well reviewed, and successful. I can say that about a lot of brands in all areas from photography gear, to cars, to watches, to audio gear. I don't like Rolex. But I can admit they are a great watch maker, successful and highly regarded. I just don't like the look of them so it all goes for nothing for me.
Edits: 08/24/17 08/24/17 08/24/17 08/24/17
"See its funny. If Fred replaces an Einstein with AN...Fred being a reviewer I can site as a real person and one can read his review of the comparison...well he only did so because he was bored. When the HK Einstein dealer buys AN for his own house and all the other people working there and NOT an Einstein let me guess he's wrong too."
Are you trying to be obtuse on purpose? This was never a discussion about the F*ing Einstein. That is what my friend has and that is what we used. Is it a bad preamp? Not at all. That is why it is irrelevant what Fred or your HK dealer does with their own damn money. I never said Fred bought it out of boredom. READ what I said. I said that I don't know why he changed...perhaps boredom...it's as good a reason as any for many guys who change gear constantly. I know plenty of people (my two of my friends in fact) that strongly prefer Einstein over AN...so what? Stop being a dope and stop making strawmen.
"But, when it's YOU and your mysterious buddies then they are all of course perfect decision makers and infallable and never wrong."
I simply related what we heard and you don't like to hear that AN was outperformed so you have been going through contortions to claim our listening session was somehow invalid in your mind...believe what you want. My friend and I are both very experienced listeners and we know what we hear. Would AN work better with AN speakers? Who knows, we don't own them...no one I know owns them even though they all visit the dealer for other stuff...come to think of it none of them own any electronics either although we try them out...
"PS, judging sound quality has absolutely no relation to being an engineer"
No, but it does mean you an easily misassign the reasons for WHY things sound like they do...as you clearly do.
"I just spent this afternoon listening to a complete Einstein flagship system and KR recently. Meh."
So? Care for some details beyond Meh? I could say that for every AN system I have heard so far but I choose to be slightly more descriptive.
Which KR and which speaker and what ancillaries...come on this name dropping KR and Meh is really amateur hour. Why you keep mentioning Einstein is a mystery...my friend owns, he likes it and we used it. I don't own any Einstein (I had an Einstein "The Absolute Tune" for about 4 months...didn't like it and traded it for the NAT Symbiosis SE...a really interesting but frustrating machine).
"The M3 eats the Einstein for lunch"
Maybe, maybe not...I am not surprised by your opinion. I don't have one as I have not heard them back to back. I know though another friend of mine strongly preferred the NAT Utopia to an Audio Note M5 as he said the M5 was too warm and sluggish comparatively. The Aries Cerat Incito is far better than all of the above, including my NAT Plasma, which I also like more than Einstein.
"I already told you which Odeon I heard so why go down that road again.
Stereophile sums it up nicely and correctly. If they're such great quality speaker line why would all 7 dealers dumped them? People came in and heard them and all bought something else because the something else was clearly better.
If Odeon was in fact better they would have 7 dealers now and perhaps more if they were prized by anyone.
"
Seriously, stop being an idiot. One model reviewed by Stereophile does not a company make. Look at the very positive reviews on Positive Feedback and in the German an Dutch magazines. They have been in business 25 years and have a robust business in Europe and Asia. Who cares what you think makes them a successful business or not? They had a very well regarded room this year in Munich as well, partnering with New Audio Frontiers of Italy.
"I mean since our discussions back in the day AN has gone from 1 plant to 4 and quintupled their workforce"
And? Is business size a function of quality now? Then Sony, Yamaha, B&W etc. make far better products than Audio Note. Really stupid...sorry it is such a stupid thing to say.
"So doing the math on the audiophile world market is on my side not yours. My opinions on sound quality held. Yours went out of business. Lol"
As I said, Odeon is not out of business at all and just launched new ultraend models and had a sucessful Munich show (they had a real room too, which costs serious $$$). Clearly to do that means they are not shuttered or struggling. Your lack of knowledge is stunning.
"And yes AN amps come in different transformer levels based on price. That's fine. No one should expect massive 50hib c core etc etc in a $1500 amp. KR sells amps well above $40,000"
Most KR amps are under 20K and hte lowest prices are well under 10K. My JJ322 HAS massive Hib double C Core output transformers for a retail price of 6K euro. They are a good 10Kg. Bass is tight, controlled and well defined...as one would expect with good iron. Midrange is holographic as one would expect from a good 300B design and highs are extended but delicate. Not a world beater but very good for that money. The only AN amp for 6K or less with Double C cores is the Oto Signature.
The reason it is not fine for AN to offer in their "budget" products EI transformers is that the EI transformers used in lower AN amps are frankly too small and do not deliver clean bass and it colors up through the midrange as well. I have heard this now one three or four of their lower models. Maybe you don't hear that lack of bass definition or the coloration that creeps into the mids as a result?
If I was going to spend 20K-25K on an amp, I would probably buy an Aries Cerat Diana Forte or Concero 25 monoblocks. I would put them up against a Jinro or Conquest Silver Signatures or P4 Balanced...why not try? As always, I am an experimenter and will base my decisions on observations. You don't like mine because they didn't come down in favor of "your" brand...
1) it's as good a reason as any for many guys who change gear constantly.
Fred doesn't change gear constantly. Could it be because the AN preamp sounds a lot better forcing him to change...that's the reason he wrote. So are you saying he his a liar? He must be if you put in YOUR reason as a way to slam AN and support your favorites.
2) you don't like to hear that AN was outperformed so you have been going through contortions to claim our listening session was somehow invalid.
No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic. He owns the AN J/Spe speaker (he likes it and you don't so your ears and the OPs ears are completely different. This is why I don't comment anymore when a Magnapan owner asks for amplifier or source advice. My ears and the OPs ears DO NOT HEAR IT THE SAME. If we did I too would own a Magnepan.
""And? Is business size a function of quality now? Then Sony, Yamaha, B&W etc. make far better products than Audio Note. Really stupid...sorry it is such a stupid thing to say."""
No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies are major not just because of stereo equipment.
When one is speaking of JUST small business companies catering ONLY to audiophiles (not selling dishwashers, and bikes and video games) and are not selling lifestyle components (Bose and B&O) then you compare APPLES to APPLES. So you can compare an audiophile audio company catering to audiophiles to an audiophile company catering to audiophiles. Odeon caters to audiophiles - they are NOT selling home theater in a box - they are selling to wealthy audiophiles. Audio Note is catering to wealthy audiophiles. 2003 is baseline. Odeon has 7 dealers now zero - AN has grown four to five fold. Both cater to the EXACT same market to the EXACT same potential customer base. Holy Batsales Batman! This is so basic. Nice Strawman though.
"" My JJ322 HAS massive Hib double C Core output transformers for a retail price of 6K euro. They are a good 10Kg. Bass is tight, controlled and well defined...as one would expect with good iron. Midrange is holographic as one would expect from a good 300B design and highs are extended but delicate. Not a world beater but very good for that money. The only AN amp for 6K or less with Double C cores is the Oto Signature. ""
This is all fine - maybe I would like the JJ more as well since I like parallel 300b. But there is a thing called system synergy - I have liked one amp better in one system and liked another amp better in another system. Do you hold out ANY possibility that the JJ322 sounds better than an OTO with a horn like Odeon and that the OTO could sound better with an AN J speaker? Not even possible ever that one amp is better in certain systems and not in another? Because I certainly have come across that many times. Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. But Zesto with AN not so much - they bully the speakers.
""Clearly to do that means they are not shuttered or struggling. Your lack of knowledge is stunning.""
They went out of business in the United States. I was referring to not just Odeon but other companies you always support like Apogee. Soundhounds carried Reference 3a - people compared - they dropped Reference 3a. Two dealers here in HK carried them (including King when he was a dealer) both dealers dropped them. Reference 3a when they were called 3a also went bankrupt. I see a common theme. And I was a huge Reference 3a fan until they went to Berrylium - big downgrade - not surprised they disappeared in this market where people are born into a 9 tone language and a lot of classical music die-hards.
As for other amps - I'll try anything that is available for audition. HK is a huge audiophile market - point me to a dealer and a product that you insist beats an AN amp for around the same money. $30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality - you can have a 70lb transformer silver wired, high C-Core whatever that sounds worse than a small EI that is designed by actual competent people. When you go into auditions and see that amp A is 250lbs and has huuuuge transformers and the next amp is 30lbs and assume the former is better - you are in a biased state.
Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale. I can buy far beefier equipment in terms of amplifier weight and transformer weight from all sorts of companies. Those attributes do not make something sound better - they may make them sound better with harder to drive speakers. They don't struggle on AN speakers - depending which AN speakers.
"No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. "
Yes, I gave the opinions of I and my audio buddies and you challenged them...so what? Going on some pointless tirade against Odeon and Einstein...
"Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic."
It was, I suggested he try SET OTL monos...totally on topic.
"No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies "
Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company. Is that apples to apples enough for you (I noticed you didn't touch B&W in your sensless retort). The very best amp maker I know of, Aries Cerat, is a very small company but by your definition they must suck because they have only 7 employees and a small factory. Like I said, what you were saying was stupid. Does that mean that AN sucked when it was only a small workshop and it is only good now that they have quadrupled in size? You see your argument is totally illogical...
"But there is a thing called system synergy "
For devices with significant flaws there can be a benefit of balancing one device against another. For devices with relatively few or minor flaws then they tend to work very well regardless of the system they are put into...no synergy required.
"Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. "
I haven't heard Marten speakers sound really good with any amplifiers and heard them sound bad with quite a few.
"They went out of business in the United States. "
No, they no longer have representation in the US...their business is based in Germany. They are successful there and in Asia or then they would disappear completely.
"but other companies you always support like Apogee"
Look around, Apogee has been out of business nearly 20 years and there are a lot of peopl who still own and love them and spend large sums restoring them. I have a friend in Holland who makes a nice income from the restoration of these speakers using drivers made in Australia (who has the rights to the Apogee name). There are pro restorers in Germany and US as well. This company died for business reasons not product reasons. There is a strong love for their sound still today.
Reference 3a made some amazing monitors in the past (I particularly liked my old MMCs and the Royal Virtuoso) but I cannot speak of the rest of their lineup. It seems Tash Goka is not taking things in the right direction but I thought the Be tweeter was a nice upgrade for my MMCs...it brought additional transparency...something you seem to be afraid of. My time with this brand though was relatively short so don't make too much of it. My affair with Odeon is much stronger and enduring and the sound far more realistic in their big models. From the little Orfeo monitors (I would put them up agains an AN J anyday) to the big La Bohemes or No.38 they breathe life. A friend has No. 32s with a Golden Atlantic DAC, Aries Cerat Incito preamp and Lamm M1.1 monos (soon to be Aries Cerat Concero 65s). The bass power and control is stunning and my friend's profession is live concert promoter and demands live bass power. The mids and highs are typical, ultra transparent, no apparent coloration Odeon.
"$30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
"
IMO, a factor of 2 is the same ballpark. As I said, I would love to compare a Jinro to a KR Kronzilla SXi or Aries Cerat Diana Integrated. That is all in the 20K class, which is for me an upper limit of reasonable price to spend on an amp. Ok, the 90K Kondo GakuOh is such a beautiful machine that I would have to think about it...if I had that kind of cash and Living Voice Vox Olympian speakers.
"Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality "
We are talking about output transformers and not power transformers, right? You are both right and wrong. For SET, size really matters. Core saturation really matters. All else being equal then the materials really matter and the winding concept really matters. A lot of designers shy away from huge cores because it is difficult to wind them correctly to get good HF response. Having thin laminates and exotic materials can help with low level resolution and responsiveness but it cannot overcome too small a core, which will limit bass resolution and pollute the rest of the spectrum with harmonic distortion from saturation. The review in Stereophile shows that the Jinro has a good sized output transformer as there is no significant increase in distortion at bass frequencies. I agree with JA that it measures pretty well for a SET.
"Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale"
Dynamics are vital to sounding live. Not just loud to louder but very quiet to less quiet. The ability to startle when it would do so in real life...it is rare and only a few pieces of gear can do it. Of course subtle resolution and tonality is vital to a real experience as well one cannot igore either part of the equation.
""Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company.""
Nice try with yet more strawmen.
Once again I am not suggesting that more sales = better product and I have told you this about 50 times over the years so get it through that THICK f-ing skull of yours.
ANd if you could READ you would see that I DIRECTLY brought up Magnepan - that they sell well, that people love them - I don't but I can recognize they are a successful speaker maker and so SHOULD YOU. Why? Because they TARGET the audiophile market and they find success with the AUDIOPHILE MARKET whether or not people like the sound or not. People go out and listen and they buy them. Ditto for B&W. Whether I like them or you like them is immaterial - They are deemed to be a good loudspeaker maker. Now if people ask me if I think they're great - well no I don't personally like them. I like other speakers better. But other speakers I like better are not necessarily the same target audience as B&W is very big into surround sound home theater applications. Which is similar but not the same as 2 channel primarily music applications.
Success is really simple. If a store sells 2 loudspeakers for around $2500 and at the end of the year after demonstrating to hundreds of people the store sell 50 speakers from ABC and 0 from speaker XYZ and almost ALL the listeners are audiophiles who have heard a lot of speakers - then it stands to reason that the "success" of speaker ABC is successful due to sound quality and not any other "excuse" that can be invented to make anything stick to the wall.
I'm sorry you don't get why comparing a speaker maker like B&W to Audio Note isn't the same as comparing small outfit speaker makers to Audio Note. If you truly don't understand this there is no further reason to go on with you. You have to win the argument regardless of using a modicum of sense. These are generally different markets with different agendas.
B&W was a massive entitity well before Odeon or AN hit the scene. And so was Magnepan - that's why those comparisons are not the same. Audio Note was a tiny outfit back in 2003 as well - so you can compare small bespoke audio maker to small bespoke audio maker. When a dealer sells two brands of speakers for the same money (Soundhounds carrying Reference 3a and Audio Note and several other amp brands like ASL, Jolida, ARC) and when vast numbers of customers come in - they audition and buy consistently one over the other to the point where the other can't sell anything - they get dropped.
The notion of good - you can't get past your ONE singular opinion. I mean this is not f-ing rocket science buddy. 10 people walk into a store and listen to $10,000 loudspeakers. If Nobody buys them - the dealer drops them - if people buy them then people LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!!! They then do not get dropped. The dealer phones up the manufacturer and says - hey build me 50 more of those they're selling like hotcakes.
While sales doesn't make something good in and of itself - a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good! Of the two the former is sure as hell more likely (Again WITHIN the confines of direct apples to apples - small audio company versus small audiophile company) not heavily marketed juggernauts like B&W and Magnepan or Harman International and various products.
You simply don't like the fact that Odeon failed in the US market and the only product to be reviewed was deemed an abject failure. I'm happy to go audition a different model if and when they ever become available.
To a previous request with KR I auditioned them with audio Physic and Peak Consult. If these speakers to your mind suck then KR should be more selective of the dealers they choose to show their gear with. In other words if these two speakers suck that is KR's fault for not building or demanding dealers to carry speakers that showcase their amplifiers properly. It was big sound - hi-fi didn't move me - impressed me - didn't engage me. Like most SS.
Tell your friends at Odeon to get a dealer in Hong Kong or Vancouver Canada - Big markets both with tons of rich people - tons and tons of millionaires and billionaire audiophiles - surely if AN is terrible as you say then if Odeon puts a speaker in the same room - all the audiophiles who come in will all buy the Odeon and AN will go out of business. Your dream come true. SO why didn't that happen in the US? If it is so outstanding for the same or less money (and I admit I like the looks of them much better) so they should kill.
You are the one who made a big deal about the growth of AN and how that must mean they are superior products. I simply demonstrated the faulty logic in this supposition...get that through YOUR thick skull.
There is simply no point in discussing the business with you...you simply don't get it.
Stop being so stupid really. There are lots of other brands that people prefer to the one you fanboy relentlessly. Odeon, and other brands you don't like, such as Magenpan, make speakers others like more than AN speakers. You act like no one is buying them...even in shops that have AN stuff...well it just isn't true.
"a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good!" This is not at all inherently true as sales can happen or not happen for a whole host of non-product quality reasons...this is so simple but you still will never get it I guess...you have a child's understanding of business.
I think you already answered your own question about KR...obviously those are not ideal brands to match with any SET amp...enough said. I can say though that KR probably works better with those speakers than most other SETs...although that might still not be ideal. You act like a company can control what importers and dealers are doing halfway around the world...naïve as usual...
Odeon has dealers in Asia. It is none of my business what kind of business model they follow. They are not my friends...enough silliness. I have no wish to see any company go out of business and it is ridiculous for you to think otherwise. Get real, you rant and lose your mind.
Superb overview. Thx
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