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In Reply to: RE: Help me pick SET monoblocks posted by morricab on August 23, 2017 at 08:55:22
The AN SORO SE Signature is a whole different beast than the AN OTO SE Signature. It sports paralleled 5881/6L6GB utput tubes and puts out about 18W. It's a pretty rare beast and quite expensive, just like the OTO SE Sig. The far less expensive P2 SE and PP power amps, lack the refinement of the SORO SE Sig, but they are both fine amps at reasonable prices.
Follow Ups:
That could be an interesting amp, I agree. Like I said, of the three AN amps on test to me the Oto Signature was clearly the best overall. It wasn't tonally lush by any means but it was also not threadbare. Transparency was excellent and dynamics were solid.
I am not so sure about the value of the level 1 AN gear. The zero gear seems like good value because it is actually quite cheap. The level 1 gear is already not so cheap and I think has tough competition from the chinese.
The thing is you should compare new prices to new prices (and I mean new price to new price). Comparing a $10k amp that is so great that 10 years later you can buy it for $1500 should tell you that it wasn't all that good to start with. I can sell my 14 year old OTO for $600 more than I paid for it in 2003. I know it doesn't occur to you that the reason for that is that people actually WANT OTO amps and the fact that they can sell the SAME amp for 20+ years means that if it was good in 1995 it should still be good in 2017. Unlike most other stuff that is good for a four year review cycle and then dropped (killing all resale value). It's also why SS is almost always worthless on the second hand market. Buying some amp using some trashy torroid transformer design is a waste.
I tend to agree with you on some AN gear - not everything they make is "the best" whatever that means. There are still cost considerations to make and Andy Whittle in the video above points that out. But the heart is in the right place and the important bits are there in a complete level Zero system.
I myself preferred going with the 0.1x DAC ($1450) than the DAC 1x($1990) or 2.1xDAC ($3200). Both are better - but the "leap" better DAC in my opinion is the DAC 3.1x Balanced at $7600.
How about amps? The P1SE is $2900 and the P2SE is $3,500. I find them slightly high because Empress Monoblocks which to me sound quite vastly better starts at $5700 - for 2 monoblocks! But they'll retain their value.
I don't think the prices are particularly high - the M1 phono preamp (which provides a damn good phono stage) is $2,200 ($1,800 for a Line version). The M2 Line is only $3,000. These are hardly outlandish prices. You can spend significantly more on the likes of a Prima Luna, Rogue Audio, Line Magnetic, Mei Xing, Ming Da, and you're coming out behind on Sound Quality and You REALLY lose on the net cost side.
Why? unlike the Chinese - you can sell your M2 in 10 years for what you paid. So when you start talking about price talk about the net price - the AN costs $0 (inflation only) for 10 years versus any of these Chinese amps that in ten years you might sell for 1/4 if you're lucky (heck even the Ayon you noted gets you at best 25% of what you paid). So $3k Chinese amp you might sell for $500-$1,000. Your cost is $2,000 to $2500 versus $0 for the Audio Note.
So which costs more?
I have owned the AN K/Spe, J/Spe, TT2/Arm3/IQ3, AN E Lexus Hemp. All of these products I sold and got my money back on or sold for more than I paid. AN is looking pretty darn affordable - why the hell do you think I like it so much - I am a cheap ass MOFO and I like free. And Sound Quality trumps but only if we compare NET cost. If one amp A is $8k and is only worth $1,500 after 10 years you paid $6,500. If you could buy a $20k amp that has vastly better parts and sounds better for $20k keep it 10 years and you sell it for $13,500 - you still paid the NET cost of $6,500 but for ten years you got a much better sounding amplifier - then it is pretty clear that you and anyone else should buy amplifier B over amplifier A. Better amp, better quality, better sound, same overall cost to you. (opportunity cost aside).
McIntosh also resells well and sounds mediocre....so what?
LOL - Only certain McIntosh sells well on the second hand market. Soundhounds sold an $8000 MSRP amp for $2000 (and it was STILL a current model). Some hack on a forum got pissed at me and phoned them to which they confirmed - that's sucky resale value. But yes you are correct that some of their older tube amps MC275 do well second hand.There are plenty of nostalgic collector tube amps and LS-3/5a, Quad ESL 57 type speakers. Reminders of childhood dreams or whatnot. Again different thing. AN isn't the only brand that does well second hand but of current produced gear there ain't much. I have sold an AN-K/Spe, J/Spe, Turntable (TT2/arm3/IQ3) and E/Lx - in all cases I got 100-120% of what I paid for them. And I can sell my OTO for 20% more than I paid. This again is different than buying something from the 50s and getting more than you paid - not apples to apples. Show me some integrated amps and speakers that sold NEW in 2000-2005 that you can sell now for more than it sold for then.
Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - they're not my cup of tea either BUT they're successful and have been for decades. Plenty of reviewers like the sound of it better than most everything else. I don't love them and you don't love them but it is wrong to think "If I like it it is good, and if I don't it it stinks" It stinks to you.
I wax poetic on AN and some other brands and sure I will tell someone that I like an AN E a helluva lot more than a B&W N801 but the N801 isn't crap because I don't like it. It's not "not successful" because I don't like it. I am not going to deny B&W, McIntosh, Magnepan and numerous others their due just because I don't happen to enjoy their takes on music reproduction.
Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!
PS: My Wharfedale Vanguard (E series) from the 70s and 80s has a company that does nothing else but restore this ONE line of Wharfedales. That in no way makes them "still relevant or still on the map" - My dealer SOundhounds is a full (and I mean FULL) restoration and repair outlet - they can repair and restore EVERYTHING including any Apogee, Quad, Acoustat) That does not mean any of these old things are in any way shape or form on the map. People are merely getting their broken down speakers fixed. No more to read into it than that.
See Wharfedale restoration -
Edits: 08/26/17 08/27/17
Dude, I can get all kinds of AN gear for WAY less than it retails for...just because you found some suckers doesn't mean we all are. Every pieces of gear we demoed recently was available for at least 30% under retail (the used gear for less than 50%). Audiomarkt is full of AN stuff selling for way under retail.
I can buy an Oto for 1500 CHF. The new price is well over 4000. Typical markdown with age. If it was only 1500 new 15 years ago then AN has been pretty aggressive in its price hikes.
You are talking out your ass if you think most AN gear is selling for more than it costs. Does it lose less value than some brands, maybe.
"Again TAKE YOUR PERSONAL OPINION OF SOUND OUT OF THE EQUATION. You say McIntosh suck but not everyone agrees with you - plenty of people happen to like the sound of McIntosh tube amplifiers - "
What personal opinion? I give you an example of gear that holds its value well that's all. You keep blah blahing but you miss the point that I was responding to your comment about success financially and sound...now you want to backtrack and give all your rationalizations...save it you made the remark live with it.
"Sales Success isn't a direct indicator to good sound - but a lack of success isn't a direct indicator of good sound either. Gee these five companies went out of business (or sorry lost an entire continent because no one bought any of them) they MUST BE FABULOUS because they didn't sell against any of the competition!!"
If it was then you would own B&W speakers and McIntosh amps. Sales comes down to dealer bias as well and margins they get from manufacturers. If you think otherwise, go into the business and see. One brand will be pushed over others with nothing to do with sound but profits. Simple economics that eludes your grasp.
No one will ever take an Apogee to your Soundhound nonsense.
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