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In Reply to: RE: Help me pick SET monoblocks posted by morricab on August 24, 2017 at 06:25:47
1) it's as good a reason as any for many guys who change gear constantly.
Fred doesn't change gear constantly. Could it be because the AN preamp sounds a lot better forcing him to change...that's the reason he wrote. So are you saying he his a liar? He must be if you put in YOUR reason as a way to slam AN and support your favorites.
2) you don't like to hear that AN was outperformed so you have been going through contortions to claim our listening session was somehow invalid.
No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic. He owns the AN J/Spe speaker (he likes it and you don't so your ears and the OPs ears are completely different. This is why I don't comment anymore when a Magnapan owner asks for amplifier or source advice. My ears and the OPs ears DO NOT HEAR IT THE SAME. If we did I too would own a Magnepan.
""And? Is business size a function of quality now? Then Sony, Yamaha, B&W etc. make far better products than Audio Note. Really stupid...sorry it is such a stupid thing to say."""
No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies are major not just because of stereo equipment.
When one is speaking of JUST small business companies catering ONLY to audiophiles (not selling dishwashers, and bikes and video games) and are not selling lifestyle components (Bose and B&O) then you compare APPLES to APPLES. So you can compare an audiophile audio company catering to audiophiles to an audiophile company catering to audiophiles. Odeon caters to audiophiles - they are NOT selling home theater in a box - they are selling to wealthy audiophiles. Audio Note is catering to wealthy audiophiles. 2003 is baseline. Odeon has 7 dealers now zero - AN has grown four to five fold. Both cater to the EXACT same market to the EXACT same potential customer base. Holy Batsales Batman! This is so basic. Nice Strawman though.
"" My JJ322 HAS massive Hib double C Core output transformers for a retail price of 6K euro. They are a good 10Kg. Bass is tight, controlled and well defined...as one would expect with good iron. Midrange is holographic as one would expect from a good 300B design and highs are extended but delicate. Not a world beater but very good for that money. The only AN amp for 6K or less with Double C cores is the Oto Signature. ""
This is all fine - maybe I would like the JJ more as well since I like parallel 300b. But there is a thing called system synergy - I have liked one amp better in one system and liked another amp better in another system. Do you hold out ANY possibility that the JJ322 sounds better than an OTO with a horn like Odeon and that the OTO could sound better with an AN J speaker? Not even possible ever that one amp is better in certain systems and not in another? Because I certainly have come across that many times. Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. But Zesto with AN not so much - they bully the speakers.
""Clearly to do that means they are not shuttered or struggling. Your lack of knowledge is stunning.""
They went out of business in the United States. I was referring to not just Odeon but other companies you always support like Apogee. Soundhounds carried Reference 3a - people compared - they dropped Reference 3a. Two dealers here in HK carried them (including King when he was a dealer) both dealers dropped them. Reference 3a when they were called 3a also went bankrupt. I see a common theme. And I was a huge Reference 3a fan until they went to Berrylium - big downgrade - not surprised they disappeared in this market where people are born into a 9 tone language and a lot of classical music die-hards.
As for other amps - I'll try anything that is available for audition. HK is a huge audiophile market - point me to a dealer and a product that you insist beats an AN amp for around the same money. $30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality - you can have a 70lb transformer silver wired, high C-Core whatever that sounds worse than a small EI that is designed by actual competent people. When you go into auditions and see that amp A is 250lbs and has huuuuge transformers and the next amp is 30lbs and assume the former is better - you are in a biased state.
Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale. I can buy far beefier equipment in terms of amplifier weight and transformer weight from all sorts of companies. Those attributes do not make something sound better - they may make them sound better with harder to drive speakers. They don't struggle on AN speakers - depending which AN speakers.
"No you are welcome to your OPINIONS but for some reason your massive ego can't allow that other people are allowed theirs. "
Yes, I gave the opinions of I and my audio buddies and you challenged them...so what? Going on some pointless tirade against Odeon and Einstein...
"Your reply to the OP wasn't even REMOTELY on topic."
It was, I suggested he try SET OTL monos...totally on topic.
"No your retort is. Once again appeal to the mid-fi to make a point about the pinnacle of audiophile companies. Sorry your reply is stupid. Sony and Yamaha are big midfi/lowfi makers of a vast array of equipment. Perhaps you have not heard but Yamaha makes motorcycles and pianos, and Sony makes a thing called a Playstation and things called Smart Phones. These are major companies "
Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company. Is that apples to apples enough for you (I noticed you didn't touch B&W in your sensless retort). The very best amp maker I know of, Aries Cerat, is a very small company but by your definition they must suck because they have only 7 employees and a small factory. Like I said, what you were saying was stupid. Does that mean that AN sucked when it was only a small workshop and it is only good now that they have quadrupled in size? You see your argument is totally illogical...
"But there is a thing called system synergy "
For devices with significant flaws there can be a benefit of balancing one device against another. For devices with relatively few or minor flaws then they tend to work very well regardless of the system they are put into...no synergy required.
"Just auditioned Marten Speakers - really didn't care for them with Audio Note or Cary but I quite enjoyed them with Zesto. "
I haven't heard Marten speakers sound really good with any amplifiers and heard them sound bad with quite a few.
"They went out of business in the United States. "
No, they no longer have representation in the US...their business is based in Germany. They are successful there and in Asia or then they would disappear completely.
"but other companies you always support like Apogee"
Look around, Apogee has been out of business nearly 20 years and there are a lot of peopl who still own and love them and spend large sums restoring them. I have a friend in Holland who makes a nice income from the restoration of these speakers using drivers made in Australia (who has the rights to the Apogee name). There are pro restorers in Germany and US as well. This company died for business reasons not product reasons. There is a strong love for their sound still today.
Reference 3a made some amazing monitors in the past (I particularly liked my old MMCs and the Royal Virtuoso) but I cannot speak of the rest of their lineup. It seems Tash Goka is not taking things in the right direction but I thought the Be tweeter was a nice upgrade for my MMCs...it brought additional transparency...something you seem to be afraid of. My time with this brand though was relatively short so don't make too much of it. My affair with Odeon is much stronger and enduring and the sound far more realistic in their big models. From the little Orfeo monitors (I would put them up agains an AN J anyday) to the big La Bohemes or No.38 they breathe life. A friend has No. 32s with a Golden Atlantic DAC, Aries Cerat Incito preamp and Lamm M1.1 monos (soon to be Aries Cerat Concero 65s). The bass power and control is stunning and my friend's profession is live concert promoter and demands live bass power. The mids and highs are typical, ultra transparent, no apparent coloration Odeon.
"$30k Versus $15k is not a fair comparison. Should be in the ballpark.
"
IMO, a factor of 2 is the same ballpark. As I said, I would love to compare a Jinro to a KR Kronzilla SXi or Aries Cerat Diana Integrated. That is all in the 20K class, which is for me an upper limit of reasonable price to spend on an amp. Ok, the 90K Kondo GakuOh is such a beautiful machine that I would have to think about it...if I had that kind of cash and Living Voice Vox Olympian speakers.
"Lastly it is not the size of the power transformer but the quality of the transformer that acts on sound quality "
We are talking about output transformers and not power transformers, right? You are both right and wrong. For SET, size really matters. Core saturation really matters. All else being equal then the materials really matter and the winding concept really matters. A lot of designers shy away from huge cores because it is difficult to wind them correctly to get good HF response. Having thin laminates and exotic materials can help with low level resolution and responsiveness but it cannot overcome too small a core, which will limit bass resolution and pollute the rest of the spectrum with harmonic distortion from saturation. The review in Stereophile shows that the Jinro has a good sized output transformer as there is no significant increase in distortion at bass frequencies. I agree with JA that it measures pretty well for a SET.
"Not everything is about massive loud dynamic impact and scale"
Dynamics are vital to sounding live. Not just loud to louder but very quiet to less quiet. The ability to startle when it would do so in real life...it is rare and only a few pieces of gear can do it. Of course subtle resolution and tonality is vital to a real experience as well one cannot igore either part of the equation.
""Its simple, you were equating the expansion of the company and it's financial success as a direct correlation to the sound quality of AN's products. I pointed out, rightly, that commercial success has nothing inherently to do with sound quality even with small high end companies...otherwise Magnapan, who you so despise, would be a GREAT loudspeaker. B&W would be world beaters and better than AN because they sell A LOT more speakers than AN and they are not a midfi/lowfi company.""
Nice try with yet more strawmen.
Once again I am not suggesting that more sales = better product and I have told you this about 50 times over the years so get it through that THICK f-ing skull of yours.
ANd if you could READ you would see that I DIRECTLY brought up Magnepan - that they sell well, that people love them - I don't but I can recognize they are a successful speaker maker and so SHOULD YOU. Why? Because they TARGET the audiophile market and they find success with the AUDIOPHILE MARKET whether or not people like the sound or not. People go out and listen and they buy them. Ditto for B&W. Whether I like them or you like them is immaterial - They are deemed to be a good loudspeaker maker. Now if people ask me if I think they're great - well no I don't personally like them. I like other speakers better. But other speakers I like better are not necessarily the same target audience as B&W is very big into surround sound home theater applications. Which is similar but not the same as 2 channel primarily music applications.
Success is really simple. If a store sells 2 loudspeakers for around $2500 and at the end of the year after demonstrating to hundreds of people the store sell 50 speakers from ABC and 0 from speaker XYZ and almost ALL the listeners are audiophiles who have heard a lot of speakers - then it stands to reason that the "success" of speaker ABC is successful due to sound quality and not any other "excuse" that can be invented to make anything stick to the wall.
I'm sorry you don't get why comparing a speaker maker like B&W to Audio Note isn't the same as comparing small outfit speaker makers to Audio Note. If you truly don't understand this there is no further reason to go on with you. You have to win the argument regardless of using a modicum of sense. These are generally different markets with different agendas.
B&W was a massive entitity well before Odeon or AN hit the scene. And so was Magnepan - that's why those comparisons are not the same. Audio Note was a tiny outfit back in 2003 as well - so you can compare small bespoke audio maker to small bespoke audio maker. When a dealer sells two brands of speakers for the same money (Soundhounds carrying Reference 3a and Audio Note and several other amp brands like ASL, Jolida, ARC) and when vast numbers of customers come in - they audition and buy consistently one over the other to the point where the other can't sell anything - they get dropped.
The notion of good - you can't get past your ONE singular opinion. I mean this is not f-ing rocket science buddy. 10 people walk into a store and listen to $10,000 loudspeakers. If Nobody buys them - the dealer drops them - if people buy them then people LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!!! They then do not get dropped. The dealer phones up the manufacturer and says - hey build me 50 more of those they're selling like hotcakes.
While sales doesn't make something good in and of itself - a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good! Of the two the former is sure as hell more likely (Again WITHIN the confines of direct apples to apples - small audio company versus small audiophile company) not heavily marketed juggernauts like B&W and Magnepan or Harman International and various products.
You simply don't like the fact that Odeon failed in the US market and the only product to be reviewed was deemed an abject failure. I'm happy to go audition a different model if and when they ever become available.
To a previous request with KR I auditioned them with audio Physic and Peak Consult. If these speakers to your mind suck then KR should be more selective of the dealers they choose to show their gear with. In other words if these two speakers suck that is KR's fault for not building or demanding dealers to carry speakers that showcase their amplifiers properly. It was big sound - hi-fi didn't move me - impressed me - didn't engage me. Like most SS.
Tell your friends at Odeon to get a dealer in Hong Kong or Vancouver Canada - Big markets both with tons of rich people - tons and tons of millionaires and billionaire audiophiles - surely if AN is terrible as you say then if Odeon puts a speaker in the same room - all the audiophiles who come in will all buy the Odeon and AN will go out of business. Your dream come true. SO why didn't that happen in the US? If it is so outstanding for the same or less money (and I admit I like the looks of them much better) so they should kill.
You are the one who made a big deal about the growth of AN and how that must mean they are superior products. I simply demonstrated the faulty logic in this supposition...get that through YOUR thick skull.
There is simply no point in discussing the business with you...you simply don't get it.
Stop being so stupid really. There are lots of other brands that people prefer to the one you fanboy relentlessly. Odeon, and other brands you don't like, such as Magenpan, make speakers others like more than AN speakers. You act like no one is buying them...even in shops that have AN stuff...well it just isn't true.
"a lack of sales sure as hell doesn't make something good!" This is not at all inherently true as sales can happen or not happen for a whole host of non-product quality reasons...this is so simple but you still will never get it I guess...you have a child's understanding of business.
I think you already answered your own question about KR...obviously those are not ideal brands to match with any SET amp...enough said. I can say though that KR probably works better with those speakers than most other SETs...although that might still not be ideal. You act like a company can control what importers and dealers are doing halfway around the world...naïve as usual...
Odeon has dealers in Asia. It is none of my business what kind of business model they follow. They are not my friends...enough silliness. I have no wish to see any company go out of business and it is ridiculous for you to think otherwise. Get real, you rant and lose your mind.
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