super tweeters with full range single drivers

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Posted on July 22, 2024 at 05:56:39

pjcarroll
Audiophile

Posts: 458
Location: New Jersey
Joined: February 27, 2004

Hello: During Covid I built a pair of MLTQWT curly maple speakers. I recently switched drivers from Fostex 6.5" to the Markaudio MAOP 11.2. I felt the need to add a pair of Fostex T90A super tweeters with 2nd order 12dB high pass filters at 10K Hz. It sounds like I might want to add low pass filters to the MAOP 11.2's but hesitate to do that to a great sounding full range driver. Has anyone had experience doing so? Thanks for the help.

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RE: super tweeters with full range single drivers

seancuster71@gmail.com

01:50:17 09/03/24

Full range drivers do not exist-

Ralph

12:39:00 07/23/24

Well, they actually do

Edp

08:39:15 07/24/24

...

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RE: super tweeters with full range single drivers

seancuster71@gmail.com

01:50:17 09/03/24

Full range drivers do not exist-

Ralph

12:39:00 07/23/24

Well, they actually do

Edp

08:39:15 07/24/24

RE: Well, they actually do

Presto

12:28:03 07/24/24

Units I refered to have only one driver

Edp

14:21:03 07/24/24

I've been enjoying truly full range

E-Stat

10:01:08 07/24/24

ESLs are the exception of course :) nt

Ralph

13:40:30 07/29/24

With the added advantage of plainer response, reduced sidewall effect

Edp

14:38:12 07/24/24

They do require

E-Stat

06:58:00 07/25/24

'religious nature'

Ralph

08:58:48 07/24/24

Yes, there is often repeated sessions of head to wall banging

Edp

14:31:43 07/24/24

RE: Full range drivers do not exist-

pjcarroll

13:49:55 07/23/24

Subs are much easier to blend

Ralph

08:30:20 07/24/24

RE: Subs are much easier to blend

pjcarroll

14:50:50 07/24/24

If the subs have output above 80Hz

Ralph

14:49:03 07/28/24

RE: Full range drivers do not exist-

Inmate51

13:13:31 07/23/24

+1 nt

Ralph

08:30:51 07/24/24

Maybe you can try this

Jon L

20:45:13 07/22/24

Re: a pair of MLTQWT

Inmate51

13:10:34 07/22/24

Mass loaded transmission line Quater wave tower

Edp

17:05:36 07/22/24

MLTQWT

pjcarroll

05:16:51 07/23/24

RE: MLTQWT

Inmate51

07:41:13 07/23/24

Re: a pair of MLTQWT, posted on July 22, 2024 at 13:10:34
Inmate51 Industry Professional Posts: 3524 Location: Dallas, TX Joined: August 12, 2022	"a pair of MLTQWT" I've been in the music, audio and acoustics fields for my entire adult life. What the heck is a MLTQWT ?! ********* We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

Mass loaded transmission line Quater wave tower, posted on July 22, 2024 at 17:05:36
Edp Audiophile Posts: 4724 Joined: September 23, 1999	In that neighborhood 1/4 wave transmission line type enclosure

Maybe you can try this, posted on July 22, 2024 at 20:45:13

Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6281
Joined: April 6, 2000

Sure, try what you are proposing, but if cancellation between the bullet tweeter and main driver becomes a difficult issue no matter what, then maybe you can try what this man did, firing the bullet backward but reflecting off off reflectors..

Fostex Bullet Reflector

MLTQWT, posted on July 23, 2024 at 05:16:51
pjcarroll Audiophile Posts: 458 Location: New Jersey Joined: February 27, 2004	Mass loaded tapered quarter wavelength tube (or tower). Example: The Abby.

RE: MLTQWT, posted on July 23, 2024 at 07:41:13
Inmate51 Industry Professional Posts: 3524 Location: Dallas, TX Joined: August 12, 2022	Thanks! Learned something new today, and it's not even 10am. :) ********* We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

Full range drivers do not exist-, posted on July 23, 2024 at 12:39:00

Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 5167
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002

But really wide range midrange drivers do and are called 'full range'.

To your question, the driver likely has response above the cutoff you have planned for the tweeter. If it does then there will be comb filtering effects between the drivers which contributes to harshness. So its a good idea to filter out the highs with a crossover for the 'full range' driver.

On the bottom end, you have a different problem. Frequencies lower than the horn supports exist. The driver is not loaded below the horn's cutoff frequency so it will flop around with the lower frequency bass notes. This causes Doppler Effect distortion which contributes to congestion (so at low volumes the speaker might be very convincing but crank up the volume and it falls apart).

For this reason a high pass filter should be used with the driver, preventing bass notes from messing with it. This is why in the old days you saw high efficiency loudspeakers with 15" woofers, which had no problem getting up to 500Hz, which is a good place to cross over to the main driver since the capacitors needed to do that won't be ridiculously large.

You can supplement the bass with subs of course but if you don't knock the bass out of the 'full range' driver you'll have limited dynamic range before the speaker seems to fall apart.

RE: Full range drivers do not exist-, posted on July 23, 2024 at 13:13:31
Inmate51 Industry Professional Posts: 3524 Location: Dallas, TX Joined: August 12, 2022	"Full range drivers do not exist" You're preachin' to the choir. :) Wide range drivers do exist, but not fullrange drivers. Add a tweeter, add a woofer, and you've got a three-way. Case closed. On the other hand, there are benefits to not having a crossover from about 150 Hz to 5KHz. (Or so, depending.) :) ********* We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

RE: Full range drivers do not exist-, posted on July 23, 2024 at 13:49:55
pjcarroll Audiophile Posts: 458 Location: New Jersey Joined: February 27, 2004	Thanks. That all makes sense. I do have a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers. I think the high pass filters for those are at 100Hz. I will see how it all sounds with low pass filters for the "wide range mid range drivers" at 10K Hz which is the high pass crossover point for the super tweeters. Appreciate the help.

Subs are much easier to blend, posted on July 24, 2024 at 08:30:20
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 5167 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	If they are not active above about 80 Hz, otherwise they can attract attention to themselves. So if you're planning a 100Hz crossover, the subs should be very close to the main speakers.

+1 nt, posted on July 24, 2024 at 08:30:51
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 5167 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	-

Well, they actually do, posted on July 24, 2024 at 08:39:15

Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4724
Joined: September 23, 1999

But for most, they have limitations that restrict their acceptance and the genres of music they perform believable

You've been in this hobby/business long enough to know of the near religious nature of the full range following. Some of the most passionate, committed of the different audio religions but without the nasty clique attitudes of others.

And no doubt you've experienced a fully engineered and expertly implemented low excursion wide band driver that delivered a more than convincing presentation while experiencing a (mostly) crossover-less presentation. Rare, but real.

Like you , I too find their limitations to overshadow their strengths as midbanders, but heard more than a couple that proved the focused skill and passion of the driver creator can deliver highly refined audio.

'religious nature', posted on July 24, 2024 at 08:58:48

Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 5167
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002

You've been in this hobby/business long enough to know of the near religious nature of the full range following. Some of the most passionate, committed of the different audio religions but without the nasty clique attitudes of others.

You really hit the nail on the head! I've experienced this fervor quite closely so know exactly what you're talking about.

I have a friend who is a bit of nut in this regard and has been struggling to get the things to work for a good 25 years. He's tried nearly every 'full range' driver out there and so has spent a ridiculous amount of money on drivers that at this point are just sitting around. Crossovers are anathema to him and right there is the religious fervor.

I've heard the drivers sound excellent in his system but they fall right apart when you crank the volume. I've heard them sound great at shows too, but the exact same thing is at play there.

I've been enjoying truly full range, posted on July 24, 2024 at 10:01:08
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 41201 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	low excursion drivers for decades. They just tend to be very large-current flavor has 32 square feet of radiating area. They play loudly enough for me but if you have the space, can build large arrays (like Ray Kimber did at RMAF) should you want more. :)

RE: Well, they actually do, posted on July 24, 2024 at 12:28:03

Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 6003
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004

A full-range with a super-tweeter is just a 2-way with an excessively high crossover point. The 8-12k crossover point is a bug, not a feature. Making it really high doesn't make it less of a concern, it makes things worse. "Just a little tinkle on the top" isn't supported by the basic physics of it.

I used to put "stereo subs", one under each 2-way. 2-ways with stereo subs. Also known as three ways, with very low woof-to-mid crossover points. I did this because the theory was that a sub simply cannot be integrated seamlessly. Once I tried a properly crossed over sub (60hz not 80 or 100Hz and 4th order slopes not 2nd or 3rd) I discovered that most 2-way stand mounts can stand up to almost any floor stander. The trick is that with a floor-stander, the lowest frequencies are being reproduced by drivers in a cabinet placed in the room for imaging effects. This placement and sub placement are conflicting design goals, with the separate sub solving this dilemma eloquently.

Full-rangers with super tweeters and a sub is just a 2.1 way system and nothing more (or less).

If it sounds like it's just a semantics game once you have anything more than a single driver on each side, well, it basically is.

Cheers,
Presto

Units I refered to have only one driver, posted on July 24, 2024 at 14:21:03

Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4724
Joined: September 23, 1999

Examples I was referencing were single driver units, no HF or Sub driver. Rare, usually very large/tall, usually with BLH or dual BLH or Transmission line.

Different driver sizes, but 200 mm was usually max.

Drivers were more akin to "grown like a bonsai " with minute features of holes folds, felt dot bedazzled whizzer cones that have an xmax of a fingernail thickness. Intense details usually mark a single driver guru.

Couple in recent years have gone to larger format drivers with a good measure of success, but their flagship models are like you said with added HF unit

Yes, there is often repeated sessions of head to wall banging, posted on July 24, 2024 at 14:31:43

Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4724
Joined: September 23, 1999

Although hardly only religion in this hobby, it tends to have some of the most dogged members.

But your observation f falling apart could be as easily said about the BBC LS3A clan, and that is nearly as fervent as the Single Driver followers.

The most difficult time I've had with no crossover guys is trying to convince them " it's going to be ALOT less shouty if you put a contour filter on that traffic cone shaped frequency response" driver.

With the added advantage of plainer response, reduced sidewall effect, posted on July 24, 2024 at 14:38:12
Edp Audiophile Posts: 4724 Joined: September 23, 1999	Big Sound with Ease Today we won't comment on the downsides, as each different approach has them. Dam-It !

RE: Subs are much easier to blend, posted on July 24, 2024 at 14:50:50
pjcarroll Audiophile Posts: 458 Location: New Jersey Joined: February 27, 2004	My Vandersteen 2Wq subs are behind the main speakers in the back corners of a "golden trapagon" room ala George Cardas. The main speakers are well out into the room according to his "fibonacci progression" more or less, so there is about six feet between subs and mains. Please explain the need to bring the subs closer. They are in the corners at the recommendation of Richard Vandersteen. Thanks.

They do require, posted on July 25, 2024 at 06:58:00
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 41201 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	lots of space and power. :) Fortunately, Dr. West addressed the usual beaming challenge with flat facets placed across controlled angles of 22, 45 and 90 degrees. The 22 degree model is intended for large arrays like what Ray Kimber used.

If the subs have output above 80Hz, posted on July 28, 2024 at 14:49:03
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 5167 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	they often attract attention to themselves unless they are right by the main speakers. If in the corners there is room boundary effect which increases the bass by about 3dB per octave. It may be Richard designed his subs to complement that effect. The subs I own do and so must be placed directly against the wall to work right.

ESLs are the exception of course :) nt, posted on July 29, 2024 at 13:40:30
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 5167 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	-

RE: super tweeters with full range single drivers, posted on September 3, 2024 at 01:50:17

seancuster71@gmail.com
Industry Professional

Posts: 201
Location: Florida
Joined: August 22, 2024

Ok your full range play out to 20 KHZ pretty flat at 90db your t90 horn tweeters plays at 106db that is way louder than your full range you need an L-pad to attenuate your horn tweeter. Your full range has no crossover, so no phase shifts your horn tweeter on a 2nd order crossover has 180 degrees of phase shift so it's 180 degrees out of phase with your full range none of this is good news.

If you really wanted to seamlessly blend these two drivers together there is only one correct way to do it. You must measure both drivers for FRD & ZMA files then use simulation software to design a proper crossover anything else is just guessing and in speaker design that just never works.

If you insist on using this combo without measuring, then you could get good attenuators for the horn tweeter so you can turn their volume down and match it to your full ranges volume. Then use a single capacitor in series like a ZU audio speaker then you are only 90 degrees out of phase with the full range and that's fine Zu uses a 1uf capacitor this brings their horn tweeter in at around 10,000 KHZ you would need like a 0.22uf capacitor or smaller to come in at 20,000 KHZ but your tweeter is only good a little past 20,000 KHZ so is it worth it well that's up to you.

Speaker Asylum

super tweeters with full range single drivers

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