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In Reply to: RE: super tweeters with full range single drivers posted by pjcarroll on July 22, 2024 at 05:56:39
But really wide range midrange drivers do and are called 'full range'.To your question, the driver likely has response above the cutoff you have planned for the tweeter. If it does then there will be comb filtering effects between the drivers which contributes to harshness. So its a good idea to filter out the highs with a crossover for the 'full range' driver.
On the bottom end, you have a different problem. Frequencies lower than the horn supports exist. The driver is not loaded below the horn's cutoff frequency so it will flop around with the lower frequency bass notes. This causes Doppler Effect distortion which contributes to congestion (so at low volumes the speaker might be very convincing but crank up the volume and it falls apart).
For this reason a high pass filter should be used with the driver, preventing bass notes from messing with it. This is why in the old days you saw high efficiency loudspeakers with 15" woofers, which had no problem getting up to 500Hz, which is a good place to cross over to the main driver since the capacitors needed to do that won't be ridiculously large.
You can supplement the bass with subs of course but if you don't knock the bass out of the 'full range' driver you'll have limited dynamic range before the speaker seems to fall apart.
Edits: 07/23/24Follow Ups:
But for most, they have limitations that restrict their acceptance and the genres of music they perform believable
You've been in this hobby/business long enough to know of the near religious nature of the full range following. Some of the most passionate, committed of the different audio religions but without the nasty clique attitudes of others.
And no doubt you've experienced a fully engineered and expertly implemented low excursion wide band driver that delivered a more than convincing presentation while experiencing a (mostly) crossover-less presentation. Rare, but real.
Like you , I too find their limitations to overshadow their strengths as midbanders, but heard more than a couple that proved the focused skill and passion of the driver creator can deliver highly refined audio.
A full-range with a super-tweeter is just a 2-way with an excessively high crossover point. The 8-12k crossover point is a bug, not a feature. Making it really high doesn't make it less of a concern, it makes things worse. "Just a little tinkle on the top" isn't supported by the basic physics of it.I used to put "stereo subs", one under each 2-way. 2-ways with stereo subs. Also known as three ways, with very low woof-to-mid crossover points. I did this because the theory was that a sub simply cannot be integrated seamlessly. Once I tried a properly crossed over sub (60hz not 80 or 100Hz and 4th order slopes not 2nd or 3rd) I discovered that most 2-way stand mounts can stand up to almost any floor stander. The trick is that with a floor-stander, the lowest frequencies are being reproduced by drivers in a cabinet placed in the room for imaging effects. This placement and sub placement are conflicting design goals, with the separate sub solving this dilemma eloquently.
Full-rangers with super tweeters and a sub is just a 2.1 way system and nothing more (or less).
If it sounds like it's just a semantics game once you have anything more than a single driver on each side, well, it basically is.
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 07/24/24
Examples I was referencing were single driver units, no HF or Sub driver. Rare, usually very large/tall, usually with BLH or dual BLH or Transmission line.
Different driver sizes, but 200 mm was usually max.
Drivers were more akin to "grown like a bonsai " with minute features of holes folds, felt dot bedazzled whizzer cones that have an xmax of a fingernail thickness. Intense details usually mark a single driver guru.
Couple in recent years have gone to larger format drivers with a good measure of success, but their flagship models are like you said with added HF unit
low excursion drivers for decades. They just tend to be very large-current flavor has 32 square feet of radiating area.
They play loudly enough for me but if you have the space, can build large arrays (like Ray Kimber did at RMAF) should you want more. :)
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Big Sound with Ease
Today we won't comment on the downsides, as each different approach has them. Dam-It !
lots of space and power. :)
Fortunately, Dr. West addressed the usual beaming challenge with flat facets placed across controlled angles of 22, 45 and 90 degrees. The 22 degree model is intended for large arrays like what Ray Kimber used.
You've been in this hobby/business long enough to know of the near religious nature of the full range following. Some of the most passionate, committed of the different audio religions but without the nasty clique attitudes of others.
You really hit the nail on the head! I've experienced this fervor quite closely so know exactly what you're talking about.
I have a friend who is a bit of nut in this regard and has been struggling to get the things to work for a good 25 years. He's tried nearly every 'full range' driver out there and so has spent a ridiculous amount of money on drivers that at this point are just sitting around. Crossovers are anathema to him and right there is the religious fervor.
I've heard the drivers sound excellent in his system but they fall right apart when you crank the volume. I've heard them sound great at shows too, but the exact same thing is at play there.
Although hardly only religion in this hobby, it tends to have some of the most dogged members.
But your observation f falling apart could be as easily said about the BBC LS3A clan, and that is nearly as fervent as the Single Driver followers.
The most difficult time I've had with no crossover guys is trying to convince them " it's going to be ALOT less shouty if you put a contour filter on that traffic cone shaped frequency response" driver.
Thanks. That all makes sense. I do have a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers. I think the high pass filters for those are at 100Hz. I will see how it all sounds with low pass filters for the "wide range mid range drivers" at 10K Hz which is the high pass crossover point for the super tweeters. Appreciate the help.
If they are not active above about 80 Hz, otherwise they can attract attention to themselves. So if you're planning a 100Hz crossover, the subs should be very close to the main speakers.
My Vandersteen 2Wq subs are behind the main speakers in the back corners of a "golden trapagon" room ala George Cardas. The main speakers are well out into the room according to his "fibonacci progression" more or less, so there is about six feet between subs and mains. Please explain the need to bring the subs closer. They are in the corners at the recommendation of Richard Vandersteen. Thanks.
they often attract attention to themselves unless they are right by the main speakers.
If in the corners there is room boundary effect which increases the bass by about 3dB per octave. It may be Richard designed his subs to complement that effect. The subs I own do and so must be placed directly against the wall to work right.
"Full range drivers do not exist"
You're preachin' to the choir. :)
Wide range drivers do exist, but not fullrange drivers.
Add a tweeter, add a woofer, and you've got a three-way. Case closed.
On the other hand, there are benefits to not having a crossover from about 150 Hz to 5KHz. (Or so, depending.)
:)
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