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I replaced the ultra cheapie 47K resistor in my Art Audio Vinyl One phono pre with a vishay.
The result is: more music, more detail, more everything EXCEPT bass. It sounds like the mids have taken over my system. My Art Audio is SHOUTING at me.
Is there a more balanced sounding resistor I should consider? Or at least one that lets through a ton of bass?
Hukk
Follow Ups:
I thought everything was already chosen to be optimal and shouldn't be tweaked or messed around with?? Only kidding ;-)
I use Radio Shack brand metal films. They sound pretty good to me. No kidding!
(P.S. Usually the power company determines whether my gear sounds good or not.)
I have found that damping gear makes a lot of sense, but never thought about damping individual component parts. I've heard that crystals in DACs and CD players could make a big difference though!
The words "Vishay Resistor" used to mean the exotic bulk foil resistors....and much of the comments below are about that. But in the last many years Vishay has bought tons of companies and they have tons of resistors that people now call "Vishay". Dale resistors are now "Vishay" resistors to some. I call them Dales. If you have a metal film "Vishay" you do not have the original bulk foil resistor everyone is talking about below. Your description is too vague to really know what you have. Check out the Vishay site and see all the varieties of "metal film Vishay" resistors there are.
Bulk foil Vishays can sound more lean then some other resistors.....even though they are supremely transparent (especially the latest nudies...and of course you must damp them....or they ring). They will not match the tonal character of everything and just like all parts must be choosen to work with the circuit and your system to make synergy.
If you can, please find out EXACTLY what "Vishay metal Film" resistor you have....it would be fun to know.
The "sound" of a resistor is added to the circuit whether it is in series or in shunt......you will always hear its color. So, if you do not like the color you are hearing then by all means change it. You create your reality....you create your sound. Have fun.
How do I do this?
Thanks very much,
Hukk
Sorry for poor pic quality. Best I could do.
Actually they have different numbers. One is VSH1 9643 and the other is VSH1 9117. Surprising because I think they are left and right channel.
Hukk
You got the only Vishay bulk foil resistor that sounds like crap. Tried them from Percy Audio years ago and they are grainy/bright...bad. The ceramic coating kills the good sound. Also you never want to hang a component in the air on two solid core leads.....it rings. Put a small piece of contrained layer damping material from the resistor body to some other surface. You could use a tiny bit of amazing Goop from the resistor to another surface as well.
Get rid of em!!!!
Thanks for your helpful thoughts.
Hukk
The resistors are 47K ohm bulk metal foil types with different date codes. Your poor sonic results may be due to the poor installation technique: the resistors should NOT be mounted way up in the air on their leads, the way your photo shows. This invites noise induction and makes the circuit susceptible to acoustic vibration.
What would be the correct way to install them?
That's really good to know. Thank you.
Hukk
Be careful not to create a short to the soldered termination of the cable, which appears to be close to the resistor in your photo.
To fix this you will need a small soldering iron and some solder-wick. I would use a little liquid solder flux to minimize the time you have to apply the soldering iron to the joint to get it to melt, and to assist the wick to remove as much of the old solder as possible. Overheating the joint could damage the resistor and the metal of the printed circuit. Clean off the solidified remaining flux after you are done with the repair: it is resin and not harmful, but looks bad.
Better to have help from someone with experience if you are unsure about this.
n/t
A while ago, my friend who lived in Israel, went to the Vishay factory there and got a bunch of resistor samples which he tried in different applications. His results as I recall were quite similar to yours. He stated that in the signal path they were very quiet but very lean and hard sounding, therefore detailed but not musical. He was impressed though putting them elsewhere. He settled on carbon's used by Rotel in the 90's but I can't remember which.Hope that helps.
Edits: 02/09/10
The new wiring sounds like it should be a good thing, so I would try switching out the Vishays for Holcos. While the different models of Vishay may sound differet, I believe that they are all analytical sounding. I can't find the quote, but I seem to remember John Curl saying that cheap Vishays could peel the paint off of a wall. Holcosk, on the other hand, come from the other side of the spectrum. They sound a little soft and lack slam. But who knows. The new wiring may give you plenty of slam and the Holcos might even complement them.
Edits: 02/08/10
Even the older Holcos, before they went with steel end caps, have a peculiar sonic character. It is not just a softness, but some sort of lower midrange emphasis.
The half-watt PRP resistors seem to me to be more neutral.
This is a review of your preamp fed into a Placette which is all Vishay 102
'Comparing the effects of the Goldpoint in an out of circuit, and evaluating the Vinyl 1 connected directly into the power amplifiers (Cary 500MB monos or Quicksilver V4 monos), I greatly preferred to bypass the Goldpoints and use a Placette Passive Line Stage to adjust the volume. As noted in other reviews here on 10 Audio, the Placette Passive continues to prove itself to be essentially invisible and a totally transparent device.'
Google with the preamp's name.
I use a Placette balanced and this is more neutral than any active preamp I know. Basically even Stereophile Class A preamps don't make the grade to my ears.
Try a Kiwami in there, I don't know if it will help but it will put you on the road to discovery.
By the way, as you found out not everything stands up to the hype.
It is a little meaningless to ask whether "vishay" resistors have a sound without specifying which type. Vishay has a huge range of resistors. Even the metal foil Vishay's vary in construction, temperature co-efficient, and from reports, sound.From what I have read the VTA55 Vishays are not their best sounding metal foils.
Rob.
Vishay metal film, 1/3 watt.
Not S102, not any other "named" kind of Vishay.
Hukk
If someon'e system needs a jolt, Vishays might be just the ticket, but they were unlistenable in my phono preamp. See the link below for my impression of a few resistors.
I am wondering if it's possible that these Vishays are my problem. None of them are carrying signal to the tube circuit.
The modder also replaced the internal wiring. Perhaps this is what is making the unit sound shouty and bass-light.
?
Thanks for your help,
Hukk
At least in many audio cases involving voltage dividers such as a volume control, or input termination, and is just as important if not moreso. It is usually a higher value resistor, and hence most of the audio signal voltage is developed across it since almost all of the audio signal current flows through it.I agree with some others that the Vishay S102 is fairly neutral sounding, but my favorite resistor type is the low current precision wirewound resistors that are usually wound on a plastic epoxy bobbin core with two sections that are wound in opposite direction. I think it's called reverse pi. Then coated in silicone rubber and encapsulated in epoxy. No ceramic anywhere to give it that irritating harsh resistor sound that even nude Vishays have. Not a drop-in replacement for all applications since they do have a little more inductance in the standard winding form, but very much worth re-engineering a unit to use them in my experience.
Edits: 02/09/10
Not to mention noise.
This is not to say that shunt resistors don't influence the sound but com'on, let's not get silly.
... admits that he has not done any extensive research on resistor sound quality.
His point is that with a shunt to ground, the audio signal is NOT passing through the resistor. Therefore, it seems unlikely that the resistor will influence the sound that hits your eardrums.
I am very open to either answer, because while I understand the modder's logic, and it's compelling, I am also noticing the SAME annoying sound qualities in both preamps -- one of which has vishays in the path of the audio signal, the other of which has vishays as shunts to ground.
Your modifier is using faulty logic.
If he thinks the resistors to ground have no effect on the signal, then why did he replace the originals?
The modder did not say that shunt resistors have no effect on the sound. He feels that poor resistors in this position can contribute noise to the audio signal. Quality resistors in this position improve sonics by reducing noise, he says.
I hear the argument that a shunt-to-ground resistor is like a bypass capacitor, which we all know *does* contribute to sonics. But doesn't the audio signal really, actually pass through a bypass cap? Whereas, the signal does not pass through a shunt to ground?
Either way I know logic is not what matters, it's experience. And I am grateful to you all for your thoughts. I'm gonna put a Riken or a PRP in place of these vishays and report back to you. Thanks again,
Hukk
The shunt resistor affects the voltage that appears across it. This is the "signal," and not just the current that passes through the series resistor or previous stage.
This is where the logic is faulty. I just mentioned the contradiction of replacing unimportant components to highlight the fuzzy thinking.
"Either way I know logic is not what matters, it's experience."
I think logic and understanding are more important than experience because they drive the experiences. If my experience was that my 'modder' didn't understand a two element network, I'd be moving right along. In the VW beetle days you knew you'd reached that point when the 'mechanic' asks you to pop the hood so he can check the oil. I think you've arrived.
Rick
...even though there is no logical reason that a power cord should affect sound quality."
You always see people ridiculing audiophile stuff like cables and power cords -- "it's just electrons!" "the power cord is just the last 3 feet of a chain of wire coming from the electric company!" "how could it make any difference?"
But then you try one and you realize, with your experience, that it can actually matter.
So I am not going to sit here with a strident phono pre just because I am devoted to some logical concept. I trust the experiences of others in the asylum.
I'm all for that type of experience, have some myself. By the way I don't agree that "there is no logical reasons" for power cords to make a difference even though I have yet to actually experience it.
What I was trying to say is that knowing whether a shunt resistor is in the 'signal path' or not (it is) is a matter of competence, while knowing WHAT part to use is largely a matter of experience.
Rick
The audio signal flows through both, so the signal level (and hence signal "quality" from an audio standpoint) is a function of both.The easy to visualize input to output "signal path" being all that affects sound quality is just one of many long standing audio myths. People used to dismiss the contribution of power supplies, and bypass capacitors, and circuit boards, and every other part of the circuit that wasn't directly connecting the dots from input to output. Fortunately not all designers believed that.
Edits: 02/10/10
My Vishays were in the signal path, but in a way they were also ground shunts. They went from the hot to the ground of my step-up transformers. One thought is that pre-break-in components tend to be more agressive than after break-in, but the overall character usually doesn't change enormously (in my experience). I have used high purity copper and found it a bit forward compared to Cardas, but not at all shouty. Some break-in may help to tame them somewhat. Even though the resistors aren't in the signal path, they could alter the sound. If you could substitute something else, maybe even cheap stuff from Radio Shack, you could see if they have much of an impact on the sound.
Edits: 02/08/10
"Strident" really does not apply to these IME..
Hukk
Something else is wring. S102s sound very good. I can understand it if it were tantalums or MKP32s.
The short answer to your question is "yes". One of the best ways I've found to hear how various resistors "sound" is to build a shunt-mode passive preamp/potentiometer. I haven't tried the Vishay but from what I've read they are excellent.
.... but I wasn't sure if he was saying they SOUND the best or that they reject RF noise the best:
"My own experience is not with volume controls, but with damping RF noise. PRP, but only the half-watt size, are the best I've found."
I have a friend who evaluated them in the context of cable construction, and he tried many other types. Even the quarter-watt PRPs do not sound as good as the half-watt to him.
It is a stretch to assume they will also be the best in active circuit applications, but I would not be surprised. Holco seem to have an odd sonic character no matter where they are used. Thus, it is worth trying the PRPs, which are inexpensive.
There are many types of Vishay resistors. You have to be more specific about which one.
Please email me via the Asylum Al, I would like to discuss your AC filter designs which I have recently been experimenting with.
Sorry, I had to find out what he used.
Metal film Vishay resistors, 1/3 watt. Not S102 and not another "named model" of Vishay resistor. Just "metal film".
I also found that all of these were shunts to ground. None of them actually carry the music to my eardrums.
He also replaced the internal wire. Perhaps the problems I am experiencing are more likely due to the new wire that he used (which is stranded high quality copper of very high purity).
Your sonic description suggests the mod resulted in a lot more distortion, not just a subtle shift in tonal balance or character.
If all the new resistors are shunts to ground, the original volume control must have only used two of its three terminals and there must be a series resistor between the previous stage output and the input to the volume control. Otherwise, the modified preamp volume control circuit is now different and may be overloading the previous stage.
This question refers to a tubed phono stage with no volume control. I replaced the internal wiring and 3 resistors that appeared to be cheapies with vishays, 1/3 watt, not any particular brand or model of vishay. Just metal film.
The previous question was about a tubed preamp that had a volume control. I still have to track down what exactly the modder did to that unit. He replaced the volume controls with the same kind of vishay resistor but did not touch internal wiring.
In the volume knob mod, the vishay resistor carries the signal. In the more recent tubed phono stage mod, the vishay resistors are all just shunts to ground. Strangely, both units share the same undesirable qualities (strident, way too much upper midrange, loss of depth and loss of bass).
I am very intrigued by the suggestion above that shunts to ground are even more crucial to sound quality than resistors that carry signal. Wow. Would never expect to hear that.
Hukk
"Do Vishay resistors have a sound?"
You answered that yourself.
"Is there a more balanced sounding resistor I should consider?"
Yes - the original one that was in there. I know that the designer of that preamp spent a LOT of time auditioning resistors and I trust his choices.
Dave
Or is a brand name like this going to have all different sonic signatures depending on the value of the resistor?
Hukk
Hi Hukk
"So you agree that Vishays emphasize mids at the expense of bass?"
I did not say that.
First, the contribution of any component will depend upon where in the circuit it is used, so I don't make sweeping generalizations. Now, in my experience, Vishay resistors used as input resistors impart an "analytical" characteristic to the sound. Some might call this "aggressive" or "strident". To me, the sound imparted by the Vishay is very clean and may easily reveal other aberrations. My judgment is that this clean analytical nature does not enhance the musical presentation.
Second, I have given up saying things like "emphasize mids at the expense of bass" because even thought it might sound this way, I can not measure this. I have no idea what the mechanism is for a component to impart a particular sound.
From my experience with the different types of Vishay resistors I have auditioned, there is a family resemblance although there are differences with each type. I have not noticed a difference between different valued resistors of the same type.
Dave
Have you found them to be directional?
I remember seeing that somewhere and did a little experimenting with them as input resistors - low DC and low signal. I could tell no difference with direction.
Dave
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