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Why can't they talk on this forum, my thoughts...

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In Reply to: RE: why can't they talk on this forum,,???? posted by heavywindlover on January 19, 2011 at 11:18:21

I think this is a very interesting question. I often wonder if I were in the business of making audio gear, would I actively participate in forums like this. I lean towards no. On the one hand, I think there would be value, sometimes great value, in discussing "my" product. On the other hand, I find the signal to noise to outright outrageous stuff I read in this forum (and many other audio forums) so bad that I suspect it would be to easy to get sucked into the latter obliterating any value.

I think getting nailed once for not participating is better then getting nailed over and over again for not implementing any of the multitude of "mods" or "tweaks" or special causes (RFI?)

Follow Ups:

I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - andyr 14:51:13 01/19/11 (21)
They are a company which has been successful for 40 years, and are still going strong.

The vast majority of their customer base never go to the Linn website but those who are "into" the LP12 (and their other products) and like finding out about people's opinions of upgrades - and tweaks - do (go there).

Linn contribute to the discussions. As an example, there was a lot of "noise" when the Keel subchassis was delivered a couple of years ago and some useful & informative comments came from Linn.

They also are happy to have after-market modders contribute. For instance, there is a guy who has started to produce another subchassis. It is considerably less than the price of the Keel so doesn't really "compete" with it; those with lots of money will buy the Keel and those who would like to get a similar benefit but don't have fat wallets (like me! :-)) ), will buy the alternative. There is also a Yankee who makes LP12 plinths - which compete directly with Linn plinths. These are stock standard in terms of dimensions but are made from beautiful and exotic woods ... and in fact, are sometimes more expensive than Linn plinths. (But then Linn doesn't use those particular woods. :-)) )

What is also interesting about the Linn site is that they do not put up any barriers to Linn dealers selling both the genuine Linn products and 3rd party products.

Regards,

Andy
- RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Webnick 15:28:48 01/19/11 (11)
  Andy, I think you know that there are *many* other vendors besides Linn that participate in online blogs/forums with their customers. You can't help but notice several different owners who actively enjoy Q&A sessions on the Asylum (e.g., Ayre's Charles Hansen, Modright's Dan Wright, etc.). In fact, some vendors even maintain their own online blogs (e.g., Modright, PS Audio, etc.).
  
  You'd think that Magnepan would acknowledge the financial potential of working with its most interested customers in developing its products. Who knows, though, perhaps Jim and Wendell read MUG posts daily and have been secretly working on future Frankenpan tweaks!
  Illegitimus non carborundum.
  - Hehe ... - andyr 16:26:56 01/19/11 (0)
    There are no future Frankenpan tweaks! :-)) (Well, apart from playing with different XO slopes, that is.)
    
    Regards,
    
    Andy
  - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 16:02:30 01/19/11 (9)
    Have you ever had people line up outside your office to tell you how you should design something that you know far better than they do how to design, because it's your job? People think they're being helpful, want to join in, but the truth you can't mention is that if they knew more than you about how to do your job, they would be sitting in your office instead of you. So give Magnepan some credit! Wendell says, "I don't recall a tweak that we haven't tried in some fashion," and I believe him, since they've been designing and building these speakers for more than 35 years now. And unlike us, they don't have the luxury of just "trying something." If they introduce a new product that doesn't sell, they risk their jobs.
    
    That isn't to say that tweaks can't be useful, having done some myself I can vouch that they can. But when we make those tweaks for ourselves, we don't have to worry about cost and sales or even success, since if something doesn't work out, all we've lost is a weekend's work. And as Wendell points out, they have options we don't. They can change the size of the diaphragms, used different tensions and diaphragm and damping materials, tune the drivers differently, use different magnets. And, conversely, we have some options that they don't, options that could add too much to the cost of their product or appeal to too few prospective buyers.
    - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - DavidJames 07:59:31 01/20/11 (8)
      Regarding tweaks - I wonder how many have two sets of speakers and the environment to compare the before and after, in a "blind" manner?
      - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 08:19:59 01/20/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by DavidJames on January 20, 2011 at 07:59:31
        
        I've known audiophiles to do blind comparisons. It isn't easy to do with speakers, though, since they're difficult to hide and their sound is so dependent on their position in the room -- particularly planars. We've all switched between speakers at a dealers, and while you can tell a lot from that comparison, you never really know for sure until you get them home and set them up in your living room. I think that's one of the reasons that planars suffer at dealers, those of us who have owned them know how much their performance can be boosted with optimal placement, but at a dealers they rarely get that kind of attention.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 10:39:00 01/20/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 08:19:59
        
        "I think that's one of the reasons that planars suffer at dealers, those of us who have owned them know how much their performance can be boosted with optimal placement, but at a dealers they rarely get that kind of attention."
        
        Yeah, the dealer rep who was demoing 1.7s to me complained bitterly how they haven't been placed properly in the demo room. Wtf? Why doesn't he do it, then?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 10:47:28 01/20/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 10:39:00
        
        Maybe he wasn't given that option? One of the problems dealers have is that they have no way to demonstrate most of their speakers in optimal locations. They can take a few fancy products and give them entire rooms, but most have to sit on the shelf, literally or figuratively. Which does more harm to dipoles than to boxes. Another problem is that the somewhat funereal acoustics of these places are generally optimized for omnis. Dipoles are better in a more "normal" acoustic, indeed, it seems to me that they're ability to sound good without specialized room treatment is one of their positive points: if it has sufficient breathing space, a dipole will image beautifully in a regular living room.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 11:03:06 01/20/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 10:47:28
        
        "Maybe he wasn't given that option? One of the problems dealers have is that they have no way to demonstrate most of their speakers in optimal locations. They can take a few fancy products and give them entire rooms, but most have to sit on the shelf, literally or figuratively. Which does more harm to dipoles than to boxes. Another problem is that the somewhat funereal acoustics of these places are generally optimized for omnis. Dipoles are better in a more "normal" acoustic, indeed, it seems to me that they're ability to sound good without specialized room treatment is one of their positive points: if it has sufficient breathing space, a dipole will image beautifully in a regular living room."
        
        That's the thing that stumped me -- he took me to the room dedicated to Maggies! 1.7s were all set for demoing, and he had a pair of 3.6s standing in the corner. This was the arrangement they had for months in their store. And yet, he was bitching how poorly are 1.7s placed in THEIR OWN DEDICATED SHOWROOM!
        
        My immediate thought was what's stopping him, the salesman, from placing them properly? I mean, they are already standing there, the lone speakers to be showcased.
        
        I hear you about the funeral-like showroom settings. That arrangement is indeed not optimal for Maggies. But again, we're talking about complete lack of enthusiasm on behalf of the salesforce to try and move those babies. they all seemed positively annoyed by being somehow 'tricked' into carrying Maggies on the floor.
        
        Go figure!
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 11:16:30 01/20/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:03:06
        
        Knowing salesman, they were probably thinking about how much they'd be making if you were buying a pair of Wilsons. I guess you can't blame them, since their income depends on commissions, and it takes just as much effort to demo an inexpensive item as a costly one.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 11:21:19 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 11:16:30
        
        "Knowing salesman, they were probably thinking about how much they'd be making if you were buying a pair of Wilsons. I guess you can't blame them, since their income depends on commissions, and it takes just as much effort to demo an inexpensive item as a costly one."
        
        I didn't get the impression that I was stealing him away from the customers lining up to buy Wilsons, or anything else for that matter. The store was spookily empty, I was the only customer in there, and I did stay for a substantial length of time.
        
        Now, wouldn't you think that making a sale, even at a low commission, is better than making no sale that day?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 15:05:30 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:21:19
        
        Strange, isn't it? I wonder that whenever a salesman pulls that "Why are you interrupting my day" bit. Some kind of negative psychology sales technique, perhaps? Or perhaps just that snobby doorman attitude that some high end audio stores are known for?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - ahendler 13:20:28 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:21:19
        
        My Maggie dealer in Tampa, Florida played 1.6's and 1.7's for me moving them in and out of the room and set them up really good. They both sounded excellent and I bought the 1.6's on the spot. The dealer was most accomodating
        Alan
- RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 15:03:35 01/19/11 (8)
  "What is also interesting about the Linn site is that they do not put up any barriers to Linn dealers selling both the genuine Linn products and 3rd party products."
  
  Do you think that strategy contributes to their longevity?
  
  Another thing that worries me about Magnepan is the apparent lack of enthusiasm that I'm getting from the Maggies dealers. they just don't seem interested even in keeping the Magnepan inventory, let alone showcasing it properly. I think Magnepan must work on rethinking their sales strategy, if they are to stay in business.
  - RE: Maggie dealers ... - andyr 16:34:19 01/19/11 (0)
    Yes, it is a strange situation in Oz. 20 years ago, when I bought my IIIas, hifi dealers certainly carried Maggies - in fact, I bought a dealer's personal pair when he swapped over to being an Apogee dealer. Now, however, I believe there's basically only the Oz Maggie importer (located an hour's drive N of Sydney) who sells them across the country, as well as in his retail shop. There is a dealer in Canberra who sells Maggies but I'm not aware of any dealer in Melbourne or Perth.
    As Josh posted, maybe Maggies offer so much bang for their buck - even though prices in Oz are twice your price - that there's simply not sufficient profit incentive for dealers?
    Regards,
    Andy
    
    Edits: 01/19/11
  - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 16:04:55 01/19/11 (6)
    My sense -- I could be wrong on this -- is that Maggies offer too much bang for the buck, and, as a result, not nearly enough profit.
    - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 10:47:04 01/20/11 (1)
      "My sense -- I could be wrong on this -- is that Maggies offer too much bang for the buck, and, as a result, not nearly enough profit."
      
      Absolutely true. Given the situation, what they need to do is scale up. That'll ensure healthier profit margins for them.
      
      Look at Logitech, for example => their digital streaming device, Squeezebox Touch, offers insane amount of bang for the buck, so much so that you can't believe how's it possible for them to make profit by charging only $300 per unit? But they do it by scaling up. Maggies could ostensibly play the same game. I'm telling you, anyone in my world who's heard them pretty much wants them. Isn't that a no brainer sell?
      - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 15:08:27 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 10:47:04
        
        I know that they've said they don't want to sell to the big box stores. But with specialty audio dealers on the way out, I don't know that they'll have a choice in that. The thing is, if they don't demo well at specialty stores, how will the demo at Best Buy? I can just see them pushed up against the wall, hooked up to a home theater receiver, and demoed by a kid who's thinking about his next joint break.
    - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Dawnrazor 22:29:56 01/19/11 (3)
      Hey Josh,
      
      I think you are right. Most speakers are say 50 points to a dealer and from what I know, mags are alot lower. I hate to say it, but you cant blame a dealer if that is true.
      
      Though it do find it interesting that the supposed #1 mag dealer (stereo unlimited) offers a tweak with a lineam tweet for the mags they sell...
      
      No one here remembers the bending of our minds
      - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 07:27:52 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Dawnrazor on January 19, 2011 at 22:29:56
        
        I didn't know about that Lineaeum tweak. Interesting.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Dawnrazor 09:11:38 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 07:27:52
        
        Hey Josh,
        
        See the thread below.
        
        It seems that it is more than just the tweeter as there is some rewiring involved.
        
        I kind of find it funny that the #1 dealer for mags mods them...in light of wendell's post that cracks me up.
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=mug&n=122833&hi (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 10:41:28 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Dawnrazor on January 20, 2011 at 09:11:38
        
        I think it comes down to the price point thing. Sure, Magnepan could make 3.x's sound better, but then they'd no longer be $5000 speakers! So the trick for them is to find ways to make the speakers sound better within their price points.

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