Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

A message from Wendell at Magnepan

99.16.246.224

**** DISCLAIMER: First, let me say I am not Wendell Diller. I'm a current 3.6 owner with a pair of 3.7's on order. He and I have been talking over the last few weeks, not just about the 3.7's, but the changes in Magnepan's newer products in general. I mentioned some of the misinformation that was floating around the various forums, so he asked me if I would post message from him since I'm already a member of several - so here it is. If you have questions, please don't hesitate to give him a call. ****

Dear Audiophiles,
Graeme offered to post this information in a number of chat rooms. I have been working weekends and long hours and I appreciate his help. BTW-- If it comes up again, like a previous time when I was on a chat room, feel free to call me at Magnepan and I will confirm that this is my letter.
The new 3.7 has raised a lot of questions and speculation. In this venue, I am free to say more than is appropriate for a wider audience on our website. The 3.7 bass and midrange are quasi ribbon---like the 1.7. The tweeter is a true ribbon. However, I am aware that these definitions have been a subject of debate. This letter will get too long if I try to explain our definition of "quasi ribbon". The short version is-- ANY deviation from a foil (usually aluminum) suspended in magnetic gap is "quasi". And there have been a lot of creative variations of the true ribbon.
A significant amount of discussion in chat rooms is how additional performance can be attained from Maggies through tweaks or associated equipment. I wear several "hats" at Magnepan and I am also involved on the technical side. I don't recall a tweak that we haven't tried in some fashion. We don't expend any energy or time to confirm or deny the effectiveness of any idea. You all are having fun. Why would we want to mess with that?
When it comes to improving upon a 1.6 or 3.6, there isn't much fun or hobby to it. Our jobs and Magnepan were on the line. Would you gamble with your job that your favorite tweak will be heard and appreciated by thousands of consumers? To be sure what we THINK is an improvement, we undertook blind testing with a panel that included Golden Ears and non-audiophiles. In all cases, the 1.7 and 3.7 were chosen over their predecessors.
I have some new terminology for you audiophiles. My wife, Galina, was one of the people on the listening panel. She is a Russian immigrant (55 yrs. old) and was earning $300 per month in Russia (with 2 children). She didn't even have a kitchen radio, although she did hear live music. The president, Mark Winey, wanted the assurance that "normal" people could hear the improvement of the new models. Galina said-- "The speaker on the right is 3 roses. The speaker on the left is a bouquet of 9 roses." She is an organic chemist. She said the speaker on the right is "diluted" and the speaker on the left has "more sugar".
Three of the Golden Ears from Audio Research were also on the blind listening panel. They used terminology that you would recognize.
As a manufacturer, we have the option of trying tweaks that far exceed what we read on the internet. But, will Galina hear the difference in a blind test?
We get a lot of criticism (and positive input) of what we should be doing (or not doing). I consider all to this input, but, from my perspective, I cannot fault Magnepan. Whatever subject you wish to discuss, I can offer a perspective that is not available to consumers. For example, "Your website needs more attention." Yes, I know that. But, it is not as simple as it seems to you.
We, as a nation, and Magnepan in particular, are in an economic struggle for survival. America is slowly waking up to the fact that we must change our ways. Maybe you saw our ad in The Absolute Sound magazine, "Frugal is Cool". We all have modest incomes (including Mark Winey). We do more with less!!! That means we can compete with China--despite their currency manipulation.
Magnepan has been around for 41 years and with the Wineys in charge, it will outlive me.

Edits: 01/19/11 01/19/11

Follow Ups:

RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - LUCKYDOGGOLDMINER1 01:19:53 02/02/11 (0)
I met Jim Winey thity years ago in Woodland Hills during a Tympani 4a introduction at one of their dealers. Nice man! My experience with MAGEPANANS ARE AS FOLLOWS.mg1,mg2,mg3a,mg3.3,Tympani 1b,1d,and 3a and 4,AND mmg. I still own most of thespeakers listed. I have had the crossovers modified by Vertec /Xtc of Grass Valley, Calif, in most of the speakers to correct problems with the power requirements. In the case of the TYMPANI 3a i was able to replace the tube crossover that required TWO POWERFUL AMPS with just one single ten watt test reciever to make a point. Some of the major complaints are with Magnepans power hungry ness. BEING ABLE TO RUN THAT TYMPANI 3A TO REALISTIC LEVELS W/O DAMAGING THEM ON TEN WATTS IS SOMETHING EVEN YOU AT MAGNEPAN WOULD BE AMAZED AT.Just thought you would like to know. p.s MAKE A NEW SPECIAL TYMPANI 5 AND YOU WOULD SELL LOTS of them!!!!. The Tympanis make great theatre speakers if you have the room!
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - TitaniumTroy 09:48:37 01/25/11 (7)
gtb75, I took your advice and called Wendall Diller at Magnepan. Regarding how much of an improvement active crossovers and bi-amping my 3.6's would make. He said it would be better but it would not make it into a 3.7.

BTW, he also mentioned that the 3.7 cannot be bi-amped. In the fail dept. I forgot to ask him why this was:( He was also amazed at how many posts this thread had generated so far.
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - josh358 15:31:24 02/06/11 (4)
  Speculation is it may be a consequence of the crossover topology.
  - "A consequence of the crossover topology?" ... - andyr 15:56:13 02/06/11 (3)
    Hi Josh,
    
    Shirley the only reason the topology of the XO would prevent bi-amping would be if they had made a series XO? (Which is not a simple thing to achieve in a 3-way speaker.)
    
    I can't see how a typical parallel XO would stop biwiring?
    
    Regards,
    
    Andy
    - RE: "A consequence of the crossover topology?" ... - josh358 16:41:26 02/06/11 (2)
      According to PG's schematic, that's what they did, sort of:
      
      http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag1.7.html
      
      You have a cap around the woofer, a choke around both the tweeter and supertweeter which are in series, and a cap across the tweeter.
      - Yes but is the 3.7 the same? ... - andyr 16:48:42 02/06/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "A consequence of the crossover topology?" ... posted by josh358 on February 06, 2011 at 16:41:26
        
        It would be nice to see a 3.7 XO schematic, when some curious buyer decides to draw it for us. :-))
        
        One thing - I believe the 1.7 schematic PG posted on his web-site is a guess ... and the real schematic may in fact be different?
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: Yes but is the 3.7 the same? ... - josh358 17:22:31 02/06/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Yes but is the 3.7 the same? ... posted by andyr on February 06, 2011 at 16:48:42
        
        Not sure. It doesn't have a supertweeter and it's a three way, so it does seem likely that they'd stick with the original topology . . . maybe Wendell was just saying that they didn't bring out the bi amping connections?
        
        As to PG's drawing, as far as I can tell, it's consistent with the photo above . . .
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - TitaniumTroy 09:59:24 01/25/11 (1)
  One last thing, because of demand for the 3.7's, which should be shipping out to dealers for demo around March. The Mini-Maggies will be put on the back burner again:(
  - Mini Maggies delayed? Aieee! - josh358 15:26:01 02/06/11 (0)
    But thanks for filling us in.
reading between the lines: SWEET SPOT - rolle.mark 21:33:02 01/21/11 (3)
After reading this very entertaining post and looking at what changes Magnepan has made to it's best selling legendary models 1.6's and 3.6's is adding quasi-ribbon in the bass section. The result of these changes has come to much scrutiny. I have not heard the 1.7's or the 3.7's I cannot personally say they are better or worse. BUT most everything I have read, the sweet spot has gotton bigger.

CES 2011 they talked about good sound in the WHOLE room and I believe Wendell had people moving around the room to prove that point. I read simular things about the ARC room.

My point being Magnepan is listening to its customers, maybe not to us for stiffer frames or better crossovers, but the non-tweeker community who would like their friends or significant others to hear what they hear from the sweet spot.

My sweet spot is a 18" square window at best. I have to move out of MY seat so others can hear what I do. I cannot sit with anyone on my couch and listen to music. One ear in and one ear out, just not the same.

As far as Wendell's letter goes, come on, do you see Ford recomending you take your Mustang to Carol Shelby if you really want it to preform?
Slack should be cut for a guy that does not have to say anything, especially having had bad experiences in the past. We are a very tuff crowd and this is one the gentler forums on the web.
- I agree with your point, but Mustang was a BAD example - Keith944T 07:19:45 01/25/11 (2)
  The fact is Ford sold the Shelby Mustangs from their dealers, it STILL sells a whole bunch of highly modified Mustangs through their dealerships (Rousch, Salleen, and Shelby again)
  However, there is a huge library of scientific data and history supporting that what Shelby & Co. changes gives a substantial change to the performance.
  
  Without that basis, I don't see how a manufacturer could admit on any public forum (or privately, for that matter) that there is ANYTHING that can be done to substantially improve their product.
  That's not to say it doesn't exist.
  - RE: I agree with your point, but Mustang was a BAD example - rolle.mark 08:45:22 01/25/11 (1)
    You are right Keith, after I posted it, yes I did remember that Ford does do that with some third party suppliers. Bad example, but you get the idea and my intentions.
    - Perhaps more importantly fellas ... - Webnick 07:52:12 01/28/11 (0)
      (in keeping with your car manufacturer metaphor) is the fact that Ford, GM, and every other car manufacturer has historically supported all sorts of racing parts and projects - why can't Magnepan support (or at least encourage) 'racing' Maggies? If they've done every tweak imaginable (per Wendell), why can't M provide that data to the MUG (this tiny, insignificant crowd that 'races' Maggies)? Or get into the 'aftermarket' of 'racing' parts? They could always abandon it if not profitable.
      Illegitimus non carborundum.
180 hits in two days..whew; gotta be some kind of record - Green Lantern 20:04:53 01/21/11 (0)
that didn't include profanity, ill-will, death threats, law suits etc..

message to White Bear Lake: Just gimme those dang gone 'baby Maggies' will you?! and Quick!!!

"You don't have to be faster than the lion....
just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
"Normal" people - magiccarpetride 10:10:46 01/21/11 (5)
"My wife, Galina, was one of the people on the listening panel. She is a Russian immigrant (55 yrs. old) and was earning $300 per month in Russia (with 2 children). She didn't even have a kitchen radio, although she did hear live music."

Here we have a case of being given way too much information. No one on this forum needed to know that. I fail to see what was the point of disclosing this detail on a public forum (actually, make that plural -- his intention reportedly was to cross post this on many forums/fora).

"The president, Mark Winey, wanted the assurance that "normal" people could hear the improvement of the new models."

It's nice to be called 'abnormal'. Makes it all worthwhile, you know.
- I think he would have placed himself - josh358 18:25:18 01/23/11 (0)
  and those guys from Audio Research in the "abnormal" category. So I don't think an insult was intended.
- Yeah, cause he coulda said it was his 20 year old lover ... - Webnick 19:05:42 01/21/11 (0)
  rather than his wife that auditioned Maggies ... or said he only auditioned Maggies in his boxers ... or that they had not tried any tweaks except razoring, which they loved because it was so warm and cuddly but couldn't afford, and hated hardwood frames, because it was way too bourgeois and they needed the wood for their fireplaces ... or ...
  
  ... ho hum - its just the asylum after all.
  
  Illegitimus non carborundum.
- Planar ASYLUM; therefore... - bobcole 12:07:21 01/21/11 (0)
  Just my opinion, but...
  
  Nothing good comes from analyzing word choice, sentence structure, et.al. searching for signs of inadequacy or malice in an Internet forum post. They will be perceived whether or not they are significant or real.
  
  So what if Mr. Diller gave more info on some things, and less on others than needed? Nobody is perfect, and everyone has those lapses.
  
  Wendell was clearly trying to amplify the point that Magnepan only changes their products when those changes are heard as improvements by the broad spectrum of listeners, from experienced audiophiles with "tuned ears" (my words) to folks who've had little or no experience in this area; and also when the audibility of those changes justifies the cost of implementation.
  
  He gave us examples of those sample listeners, from experienced staff at ARC to a woman with no prior exposure to high quality audio, but familiarity with the sound of live music. Why would anyone care that he told us more about one of those individuals than some want to know? To others (like me) it might be interesting, humanizing, and descriptive of Magnepan's process.
  
  Audio tweakers clearly ARE abnormal vs. the typical audio equipment buyer. That's why this is called the Planar Asylum. There's nothing inherently negative about that, just a fact. The ideas generated here are often on or beyond the edge of convention - tweakers are experimenters, and that is what lead to the very development of Magnepan speakers.
  
  The company is just trying to acknowledge the objectives of the tweakers here, and that they also experiment. But for rational economic reasons they only put into production improvements most everyone WILL hear, and tweakers tend to hear nuances that escape the average, perhaps-less-critical listener. I believe that shows they monitor discussions here, and they hear the criticisms about design, parts selection and manufacturing quality. That they chose to respond AT ALL to such a small group is sign of respect. If there they had none, they would have said nothing.
  
  Internet forums are like pubs: a bunch of (usually) guys shooting the breeze, some being serious, some productively and genially contrary, some disruptive and itching for a fight, and many just observing. In a pub we can use all senses to see eyes, expressions, body language and maintain order. Can't do that on the Internet, where things easily degenerate into useless or worse talk radio-type brawls, unless participants assume best intentions and try to take the high road. The brawls feel good to a few, but are just a waste for most.
  
  But what the hell, maybe dysfunction of the herd is a virture.
- This* is* called an asylum, you know (-; - Rod H. 10:47:24 01/21/11 (0)
  A little too much info is better than a little too little, IMHO.
- RE: "Normal" people - IEaudiodude 10:20:23 01/21/11 (0)
  I see it as us being "beyond normal" in a good way ,we are after all refining an already good speaker that the people who can't, won't or don't DIY their system to get peak performance out of each piece of their gear.I guess that makes me a glass half full inmate.....
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - JLindborg 03:33:37 01/21/11 (4)
How come that the initial text is revised and edited???
Maybe because of the insight of a big insult?
I don't know for sure.

"As a manufacturer, we have the option of trying tweaks that far exceed what we read on the internet...."

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - josh358 08:03:47 01/21/11 (3)
  Where is the big insult? I haven't even seen a small one. It just says that they have a company to run and bills to pay, and that they can't just satisfy golden-eared audiophiles but have to do things that non-audiophiles like Galina can hear.
  
  That's just the plain truth. It's their business niche. There are high end speaker companies that appeal to a different market, and yeah, they're interested in exotic tweaks, but they make speakers that cost $60,000 per pair. That isn't Magnepan's market. As a company, they have to do what they do best, and leave the cost-no-object audiophile tweaking to companies like Magico. The amazing thing, for which we should be grateful, is that they're so damn good at it that their $5000 speakers sound almost as good as Magico's $60,000 ones. And that, from an engineering perspective, is a *lot* harder to do.
  
  People are reading too much into this, owing, I suppose, to their insecurity as amateurs. Even Wendell's cheerful insiders wink -- you and I and the guys from Audio Research understand this terminology, but not everyone is a audiophile -- gets misinterpreted and flipped on its head, treated as some kind of insult when it was anything but.
  - RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - IEaudiodude 08:25:41 01/21/11 (2)
    I would love to see what a small % of Magnepan owners we really are. Most people I have ever known have never done more than plug in the stereos when they got them home.
    - Heck, I can beat that. :) - grantv 09:01:09 01/21/11 (0)
      Most people I know call me to hook their stereo/video systems up. :) They don't have a clue. From the simple ones with barely any wiring, to entry high-end buyers, most people really are not able to understand the flow of wiring. I try and tell them to think of the information and how it has to flow.... some time goes by.... "So, any chance you can come by when you have a spare hour and hook up my stereo?" "Sure, OK" :)
      As for us in the big picture, we're small fish. Let's say 500 people log onto here regularly (which I doubt). Magnepan has made ~250,000 pairs of speakers I read somewhere. Let's forget the past buyers (goes back before Internet days, etc.) and assume sales of 10,000/year. Even assuming the full 500 PA fans, that works out to 1 here to every 19 "out there". And I'm thinking my numbers are VERY high. I'd bet it's closer to 1 and 50.
      So are we important to Magnepan? We should be, of course. I think of EBay sellers who won't sell to Canada from the US; their instantly cutting ~10% of their potential sales off. Not smart IMO. Do we instill ideas in their head?, probably. Do we have even a tiniest percentage of input into the actual design that Magnepan uses at their factory?, hmm, not much if any. They have a business plan, a budget, a target market, etc to deal with. They have a HUGE fan base, started before the Internet or PA existed. There will always be tweakers, they know it, they're fine with it. The majority of buyers out there are fine with Magnepans bloody fantastic speakers out of the box.
    - RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - josh358 08:50:25 01/21/11 (0)
      Exactly! I think they've made what, 300,000 speakes? So if half of those are still in service and most people have only on pair, that would be about 75,000 Maggie owners. As opposed to what, a few hundred of us who have modified ours?
      
      There's nothing wrong with doing that, and Wendell says "Have fun," but they'd go bust if they devoted their efforts to pleasing this tiny segment of their customer base rather than focusing on getting the new models out the door and upgrading the remainder of their line to the new technology.
The truth about Magnepan? - pictureguy 22:07:08 01/20/11 (28)
I've read a lot of this thread. Some for and some against Wendell's post.

Well, I'm going to try to understand what Wendell said and 'read between the lines'.
Fact is, Magnepan is a very small company. How many employees in total? A couple in the front office. The nice lady at the desk in front....she fields the calls and routes them to the right people.
Maybe somebody in shipping if you need a simple part. Maybe Wendell himself (happened to me) if it is a more technical question. If you are a dealer? Maybe somebody handles these guys. Point being? Everybody that counts in the executive side of the company is probably sitting within 50 feet of one another. tops. Somebody orders stuff...from coffee filters to rolls of mylar for production. Somebody keeps track of the $$ and makes sure we stay 'on budget'.
The factory floor? I don't know how this is organized, but there are doubtless 'lead workers' and 'supervisors' and 'line operators'. Working in teams, they move product from station to station and end up with speakers for YOU and ME.
The expense of hiring and training must be balanced with the benefit of increased (good?) production and most importantly DEMAND.

So, how many people do you think actually work there? 40? 50? 60? More? Fewer?
Maybe 20% of everyone NEVER builds product. I don't know, it might be a greater or lesser number. Point? It is a SMALL company. Very little R+D money. Innovation? Glacial and Evolutionary. The Ribbon? Wow, how did THAT happen? But man, they are getting some major mileage out of it. QR? Great innovation. NOT revolution.

My conclusion? Give 'em a break. A Magnepan SE? (special edition) will NEVER happen. No resources exist to do this. If some 'Angel' showed up with money for 'special projects'....Hire a couple engineers....rent lab space....buy 'em 'stuff' and wait a year for a 'result', he'd have to cut a check for half a mil...at least. Than, if say....the 'brain trust' said 'Wood is the way to go along with upgraded external active crossover'......you'd have a heck of a time establishing a NEW LINE to manufacture the goods. You'd have to hire say.....PG to BUILD the frames and set up the line. Some other electronically inclined type to get the crossover end going.

Nope, Not any time soon. they've got a pretty full plate.

Too much is never enough
- And yet... - E-Stat 08:30:48 01/22/11 (6)
  A Magnepan SE? (special edition) will NEVER happen. No resources exist to do this.
  
  Dr. West, with even fewer resources, has made a Sound Lab "SE" for many years. I've visited the production facility and can attest that it is efficient, but modest. I met almost every worker.
  
  What constitutes the differences between the special version ("U" series) and the others? Higher quality bits in the power supply and the use of a heavy, rigid metal frame - at a pretty large delta in price given that the fabrication of the frame is outsourced to SL specifications. Any benefits? Well, the current wooden frames of all the models now use tongue in groove assembly to more closely match the rigidity of the metal frame. And according to Brian Walsh, the tweaked "hot rod" backplate is now standard on the "U" series and the 845 and 945.
  
  My perception is that the experience of the halo product has improved other models and apparently enough folks have chosen to pay for the improved electronics, hence its wider use today. I will agree that it is difficult to argue with success, but I think there is industry precedence for economically producing an ultimate Maggie.
  
  rw
  - Wasn't that the 20.1? - josh358 18:31:50 01/23/11 (2)
    And before that, the Tympani IV/IVA?
    
    Unfortunately, I think they sat on their laurels too long. When the 20.1 was released, it could compete with any speaker made. It's so good that it just made HP's editors choice, over a decade after it was introduced. But for some reason, there was a long period during which Magnepan stopped tweaking their models. That allowed the competition to progress.
    
    Now that that's over, I think we'll be seeing a 20.2, maybe that rumored $40,000 Tympani. If they return to form, they'll recapture a spot at the top of the market.
    - Maybe so - E-Stat 06:03:44 01/24/11 (1)
      but I think it never had the relative market position that the T-III enjoyed back in '74 when I first heard them.
      
      It's so good that it just made HP's editors choice...
      
      It was his "nicely driven" pair that I heard some years ago. First, by itself and later in his multi-channel setup. My next visit is scheduled for next month and I am looking forward to hearing some new Maggies in that environment.
      
      rw
      - RE: Maybe so - josh358 09:22:08 01/24/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Maybe so posted by E-Stat on January 24, 2011 at 06:03:44
        
        Let us know what they're like. I still haven't even heard the 1.7, want to wait at least until the mini maggie is in the stores before I make the trip (curious about the 3.7 too, but it's too big to be an option for me).
  - RE: And yet... - pictureguy 09:08:49 01/22/11 (2)
    I agree. A 'Halo' model has effects all down the line.
    
    In the case of SoundLab, how much do they do 'in house' vs having fabricated by a vendor?
    
    In the case of say....electronics.... you pay someone to make the new stuff or modify the regular production. If the modified and regular are made by the same people, it is fairly easy to spec a better part or perhaps some design changes.
    
    I simply don't know enough about how Magnepan conducts business to judge if they could make a 'SE' model.
    If, as I suspect, it is a very small company with virtually everyone knowing everyone and spouses talking, then very little room exists for limited run stuff. Maybe they insist on everything being done in-house? Maybe they don't think a 4000$ 1.7 would sell? Or a 3.7 at 8500$?
    
    Too much is never enough
    - RE: And yet... - E-Stat 11:28:03 01/23/11 (1)
      Their core competency is the design and fabrication of the panels and electronics. I'm pretty sure all the cabinetry along with the steel frames found on the "U" series is outsourced. The electronics are pretty much hand assembled as well, so I suspect there is no "re-purposing" of standard units.
      
      Maybe they don't think a 4000$ 1.7 would sell? Or a 3.7 at 8500$?
      
      No, but a $25k "super 20.1" might. I seriously considered buying 20.1s and heard an exceptionally well driven pair. I just didn't find the same level of coherency or low level resolution that my stats provide. FWIW, it was Maggies that turned me into a planar fan back in the 70s and I've owned them before.
      
      rw
      - RE: And yet... - josh358 18:37:36 01/23/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And yet... posted by E-Stat on January 23, 2011 at 11:28:03
        
        I suspect that to get that level of low-level resolution they'd have to radically change their technology, e.g., using a true ribbon for the midrange, or perhaps the most advanced planar magnetic tech of the sort being used by Wisdom in their in-wall designs -- though the related BG planar drivers don't seem quite the equal of stats or true ribbons in clarity, just very, very close.
        EDIT -- I do think that a 20.2 with quasi-ribbon bass might improve to some extent on both of the parameters you mentioned.
        
        Edits: 01/23/11
- yep - wazoo 04:49:39 01/21/11 (20)
  It just sounded to me like Wendell was defending the company for which he works (to them, we must sound rather condescending at times). It just sounded like he (Magnepan) didn't want to rain on our parade, and that they have tinkered with our ideas and much, much more. Given the amount of time between new models, I find that highly likely. As the manufacturer, however, their options are much more limited than ours. Any change they make must be audible to a very wide audience as an improvement and it must also be cost effective. If doing X will double the production cost, then it's a stillborn idea.
  There are parallels in the auto industry. Much of what I read here about a special edition reminds me of a repeating theme on s2ki.com (an S2000 enthusiast website) - Honda needs to build another sports car like the S2000! Honda discontinued that model, but over the course of 10 years they produced about 110,000 of them. That is an amazing number when one considers that Honda only intended to produce the car for one year to celebrate their 50th anniversary. It was not an assembly line automobile and it shared nothing with the rest of Honda's fleet. It was truly a special edition and they lost a ton of money producing them. For 10 years, Honda ate that loss - offset by the hundreds of thousands Accords and Civics sold each year. Magnepan simply doesn't have that luxury.
  Another parallel exists in the aftermarket for each product. There are literally thousands of aftermarket products available to the S2000 owner who wants to modify his car. I've seen photos of some that are hardly recognizable. A few have installed Chevy V8 engines in theirs. The list of possibilities is staggering. Many have changed their suspension. My CR is almost purely stock, just like my 3.6s. To each his own.
  
  "Information is not knowledge.
  Knowledge is not wisdom.
  Wisdom is not truth.
  Truth is not beauty.
  Beauty is not love.
  Love is not music.
  Music is THE BEST." FZ
  
  Edits: 01/21/11
  - they'd be crazy - Green Lantern 00:24:37 01/25/11 (0)
    if they didn't visit these types of forums.
    
    I mean think about it: where else could you pool resources ranging from every room style imaginable, absolutely every demographic imaginable, every tweak worked, re-worked, then scrutinized and placed into pratice, along with thousands of listening hours combined; and all simply for the price of a cup of coffee a day.
    
    "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
    just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
  - RE: yep - pictureguy 13:33:42 01/21/11 (10)
    As a former S-2000 owner, I can personally assure you it was UNIQUE.
    
    Extremely fast...and even a little twitchy, at times (2003 model) The suspension was, I think, slightly tweaked each model year. Starting in '04, the engine was enlarged and the redline lowered from 9000rpm (yikes!) to a 'mere' 8k. At 2hp per cubic inch for the 2liter, non-turbo, it was also one of the highest specific output engines ever in a car. (piston). The torque increase? minor. Piston speed was perhaps the highest of any street car....ever. Huge numbers. I ran the highest octane I could find and used ONLY synthetic oil. Summer only tires were best, but since I was a year round driver, I ran Pilot Sport all season tires. Not the best for handling, but at least I didn't see God while driving in the rain. No matter HOW conservatively I drove.
    Mine? The first year for the glass rear window.
    
    If I wanted a sports car today? Miata. A couple years old and maybe with a hardtop. Not as fast, but just as much fun. And isn't that what it's all about?
    Too much is never enough
    - S-freak - wazoo 20:04:16 01/21/11 (9)
      I had two, but I sold my '06 - big mistake. My '08 CR (#349 of 688) may still be a convertible, but it's a take the top off and leave it at home convertible. I should have kept my standard S2000, although this gives me the opportunity to find a low mileage '03. That was a good year - the last for the AP1 which had a somewhat different character from the AP2 (even more manic).
      
      Honda's Japanese website has some videos of the production plant in Suzuka (see link below - no need to install the language pack (just hit cancel and continue)). Those cars not only don't share components with the rest of Honda's fleet, but they weren't built like the rest of Honda's fleet either. It's simply amazing that they produced that car for 10 years.
      
      I've driven a Miata (Mazdaspeed), as well as a Z4, 370Z and a Boxter - I'll take the S2000 over any of them. It's just the most visceral, raw and pure sports car of the bunch. I even drove a Solstice before Pontiac met its demise - eh, it looks nice. I was looking for my midlife crisis car and found automotive true love in the S.
      
      The thing about the S2K forum and Honda is that there is a tremendous amount of mutual respect. Shigeru Uehara has even attended S2000 meets and been honored by the S2K community. We're a rabid bunch, and many mod the hell out of their S2000s, but everyone (even the most mod-happy) praises the manufacturer for building the perfect sports car.
      
      "Information is not knowledge.
      Knowledge is not wisdom.
      Wisdom is not truth.
      Truth is not beauty.
      Beauty is not love.
      Love is not music.
      Music is THE BEST." FZ
      http://www.honda.co.jp/S2000/td/#/popup/menu (Open in New Window)
      - Way cool! - E-Stat 08:15:01 01/22/11 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: S-freak posted by wazoo on January 21, 2011 at 20:04:16
        
        My '01 will turn ten this summer and I've enjoyed every single year.
        
        rw
        
        10 years with an S - that's way cool!!! - wazoo 16:37:34 01/22/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Way cool! posted by E-Stat on January 22, 2011 at 08:15:01
        
        Those videos look kind of weird, but they do give an indication of how the S2000 was built - no moving line and lots of work carried out by human hands. How they sold that car for the price they charged is beyond me - all those Accords and Civics, I'm sure.
        
        Another really cool thing about these cars is their Honda reliability. There are guys that drive them to the track, run the snot out of them, and then drive them home. As John Cameron Swayze used to say, they'll take a licking and keep on ticking. Back in 2000, I salivated over the S2K but it just wasn't practical. I swore I'd get one though.
        
        How many miles on your '01? What color is it? Stock or modified in some way? It's great to hear that you've continued to enjoy it. I joined the party a bit late, but I'm something of a fanatic. It's a blast to drive!
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: 10 years with an S - that's way cool!!! - E-Stat 11:20:55 01/23/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 10 years with an S - that's way cool!!! posted by wazoo on January 22, 2011 at 16:37:34
        
        Just turned 81k. It's a daily driver, but neither the wife nor I drive it on trips. We take the TL on those occasions. It's silver (pics in my gallery) and pretty much stock. I added a mesh grill and use a K&N filter. The plastic rear window had cracked and was getting kinda smoky, but Zoe the cat clawed through a section in the ragtop requiring a replacement. We got an aftermarket version which has glass.
        
        rw
        
        thanks - nice (like the bike too) - wazoo 20:52:37 01/23/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 10 years with an S - that's way cool!!! posted by E-Stat on January 23, 2011 at 11:20:55
        
        The extent of my modifications are the K&N short ram intake (really added a throaty exhaust note from 2nd through 6th) and replacing the Honda emblems with Rick's S badges (adds to the mystique of the car - most people don't know what the hell it is ;-). At 81K, you have lots of life left in your '01 - don't ever let it go! I always liked silver cars.
        Thanks for mentioning the gallery. I finally got around to putting a few pictures in mine. Of course, I added a couple of the S.
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        Edits: 01/23/11
        
        S love - Kiefer74.1 12:49:32 01/22/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Way cool! posted by E-Stat on January 22, 2011 at 08:15:01
        
        I thought there was at least one S owner here besides myself. I joined s2ki back in '03 when I bought an S of the same year (black/black). Haven't visited the site in a long time (or this one for that matter), but both were helpful and a joy to find.
        
        S lovers (pleasantly off topic) - wazoo 16:40:03 01/22/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: S love posted by Kiefer74.1 on January 22, 2011 at 12:49:32
        
        I figured there had to be others here as well, and it's great to hear from a few. My first sports car was a '69 Lotus Europa in the late '70s. I'd never owned a convertible before my first S2000. I keep kicking myself for selling it because now my CR is my daily driver (though I only work 3 days a week). I've been toying with the idea of picking up an '03 for DD duties so I can put the CR away (for the most part). My wife thinks it's nuts, and that I should get something more practical to drive every day. The problem with that is I'd be miserable driving something else every day.
        
        Once you drive this car (hard), nothing else is any fun ;-)
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: S lovers (pleasantly off topic) - Kiefer74.1 21:55:24 01/26/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: S lovers (pleasantly off topic) posted by wazoo on January 22, 2011 at 16:40:03
        
        Ok, so I'm late to reply once again...
        
        You mentioned a 'Bike' in the other post....were you referring to mine (or should I say my beloved ex-bike)?
        Anyway, I only have a few very minor mods to my S, being shift knob, and stereo system (no need to go crazy in any car IMO, but especially most convertibles), I don't think I've done much else besides enjoy the drive... (I gotta admit the latest Z4 has merit, but it's not a realistic from a $ point of view for me so...well, let it go!)
        
        I checked out the CR when it came out and not having a regular softop didn't seem like a reasonable solution for a DD. Plus I really dig the 9k redline that ended in the states in '04 (as I'm sure you know). I've driven a few 04+ models (this and other cars) and am almost always happy with what I have. Like having a 360 would be realistic as a DD (understated car IMO though!).
        
        BTW, I see you got some 3.6's and apparently a new listening room? Sorry I haven't been on here in a while so I hope I have that correct...anyway I hope you enjoy and feel pretty confident that you are!
        
        Cheers,
        Jon
        
        P.S. I Get %^&* on a regular basis for not having a more 'people friendly' car, but the trade off???
        
        you are correct - wazoo 17:06:52 01/27/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: S lovers (pleasantly off topic) posted by Kiefer74.1 on January 26, 2011 at 21:55:24
        
        We were doing some work on the house and started kicking the idea around about adding a separate garage, so we ended up with a 40x30' with a manroom above it. No matter what one does, he ends up wishing he'd done things a little differently - I wish we built a 44x36' instead, but I shouldn't complain. Did you arrive at that conclusion after looking at the photos I put in my gallery? I'm digging the 3.6s, but I sometimes wonder if 20.1s would have fit (I was pretty sure my room was too narrow at 16' - with an 8' wide screen in the middle).
        
        I'm a dumbass; I also replaced my shift knob (Momo airmetal/leather) and that crappy stereo. All of the speakers and amp are JL Audio, as is the stealth sub in the trunk. I went with a Pioneer DEH-P710BT head unit to get bluetooth - gotta have hands free cell phone capability when driving a car with a manual transmission (actually, that should be true for an automatic too).
        
        You're right about the softop vs hardtop. I'm a little slow; an idea just hit me! I could buy another hardtop and keep it at the shop. I could drive topless to the shop and if weather threatens, I could put the other top on the car. Why didn't I think of that sooner? Wow, am I ever glad I started this little sub-thread. Thanks for getting my mind working on this problem - I think I just had a great idea ;-))
        
        I'd still love to find an unmolested, low mileage '03 for a DD. I really don't enjoy driving other cars as much as the S, and who knows what a very low mileage CR might be worth some day? Honda didn't make very many of them - about 1000.
        
        ---
        
        I was referring to E-Stat's motorcycle in the other post. Check out his picture gallery and you'll see it. I've ridden some motorcycles, but I've never owned one. My wife isn't too keen on the idea, and she's so cool about everything else that I just don't push it.
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: you are correct - Kiefer74.1 20:25:52 02/01/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: you are correct posted by wazoo on January 27, 2011 at 17:06:52
        
        I guess I was just testing my memory. I visited this site a few months ago and was pretty sure I saw some pics with your new 3.6's and a new room to boot! I never got a chance to say congrats, so...Congrats!!!
        
        Yeah, hindsight is 20-20, but at least you're not in downgrade mode! My new place has been a disaster for my systems and I've been considering changes all 'round.
        
        So you're thinking of the 20.1's already ;) How high is your ceiling and did you acquire some new amps as well? Anyway, I have yet to hear the 20x's sounds bad, but yes, sometimes far from optimal. I would love to have a pair even in my far less than optimal position, but reality comes back ;)
        
        Funny you mention bluetooth in the car...I'm getting a new deck just for that capability and might even install an old amp (after I dust it off), but no sub. I opened up that area of the trunk by putting the tools in a blanket/throw and put in with the spare tire...DD including groceries etc...I had my old subs, also JL's, stolen when I moved from NY to OH back in '03 (I really loved what they could do in my old RX-7...do they even make W6's anymore? Guess I'll check after I post this). I have an MB Quart/ "something" combo and no sub (the tweeters change every year or two when I blow 'em...hence the thought of bring an amp back in the mix sounds like a good idea in more than one way. I run the MB's open and just put a cap on the tweeters to keep the distortion low. As I said, I'm not really into car audio anymore (at least in this car).
        
        ...speaking of..The extra top at the shop, that sounds like a great idea to me. You can find some great deals via s2kI or Ebay instead of buying through a dealer. Yup, I do love my '03! I plan to keep it for a long time and would love to do one of the Drives if I was able.
        
        Anyway, I'm starting to ramble on...I'll check out E-stats bike...how do you reach the galleries? I've either been off here a long time or just never looked any further than the posts and general MUG forum!
        
        Regards,
        Jon
  - one wonders... - slapshot 10:56:02 01/21/11 (7)
    ...do owners of maggies keep them longer than owners of other speaker types? I can't imagine changing speakers until my current 1.6s break, and they seem to be doing fine now going on 15 plus years.
    
    The longer the speakers last, and the longer people are happy with them, the worse it is for Magnepan...that is, they don't get much repeat business. As such, they would be a victim of their own success, so to speak.
    - I've had the AR91s that are in my bedroom for 30 years. - wazoo 20:14:12 01/21/11 (6)
      I've completely overhauled them. As long as I can buy another set of surrounds for them 15 or so years from now, I see no reason why they won't see 50+ years of service. I have another set of new tweeters boxed up in the closet (just in case).
      Still, I get your point. Of course, I still have my MMGs, but now I also have a pair of 3.6s. I also have a pair of MMGCs that I use as surround speakers. I bet there are quite a few owners with more than one set of Maggies.
      ---
      I have a pair of Klipsch Heresy speakers (actually, my son has them now) and a pair of JBL L112s that are roughly the same age as the ARs - the Klipsch are untouched and I've replaced surrounds on the JBLs. In fact, I also have a pair of JBL C50 Olympians that an uncle bought in 1970 - a restoration project awaiting completion (about halfway done).
      
      "Information is not knowledge.
      Knowledge is not wisdom.
      Wisdom is not truth.
      Truth is not beauty.
      Beauty is not love.
      Love is not music.
      Music is THE BEST." FZ
      
      Edits: 01/21/11 01/21/11
      - RE: I've had the AR91s that are in my bedroom for 30 years. - IEaudiodude 11:00:53 01/22/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I've had the AR91s that are in my bedroom for 30 years. posted by wazoo on January 21, 2011 at 20:14:12
        
        Thanks wazoo now look what you've done, I only own two pairs of maggies, now your making me feel like some sort of outcast weirdo,so when my wife see's me trolling around ebay and Audiogon in the planar section the blood will be on your hands .........
        
        of course.... - wazoo 16:47:39 01/22/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I've had the AR91s that are in my bedroom for 30 years. posted by IEaudiodude on January 22, 2011 at 11:00:53
        
        You'll also need to build a monster garage with a manroom above it so you'll have somewhere for that next pair to go. That should really get your blood spilling!
        
        Somehow, I got away with it...so far ;-)
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: of course.... - 66mgb 18:42:32 01/22/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: of course.... posted by wazoo on January 22, 2011 at 16:47:39
        
        This tread has more posts than any other, do car's and Maggies relate ?? I have 66 MGB roadster 35, plus years, my daily driver and a 69 MGC 6 with 3 carbs.. my hot rod. I have rebuilt and restored both myself,, so I am a car tweaker as well as an audio one. PG should be grateful for the cottage industry MAgnepan has provide him. Instead PG seems to take offense at some slight that Magnepan has not given credit his efforts ! Perhaps some of the folks here are just a bit too thin skinned ! We are in reality, a bunch of nuts who spend far too much money in pursuit of audio nirvana.
        
        I think you drew a nice parallel. (where's RodH?) - wazoo 21:47:59 01/22/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: of course.... posted by 66mgb on January 22, 2011 at 18:42:32
        
        The relationship between cars and Maggies (or audio in general) is that each has its tweakers and its non-tweakers. You wouldn't own MGs if you weren't a tweaker. I think you characterized us pretty accurately - a bunch of nuts.
        
        You should talk to RodH about your MGs ;-)
        
        My old Lotus had twin Webers - one of those cars I wish that I had kept (even though, in my youthful stupidity, I wrecked it).
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
      - Temptations?!?! - mrr 09:49:34 01/22/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I've had the AR91s that are in my bedroom for 30 years. posted by wazoo on January 21, 2011 at 20:14:12
        
        Waz, Ever tempted to try the Heresy's in your new room with some tube power? I've got a restored Scott 399 tube receiver that I've been itching to try in my big rig room with some high eff. speakers. I just dont have any speakers efficient enough to really push me to the point of experimenting. Who knows..., maybe that's a good thing.
        
        bb
        
        interesting proposition - wazoo 16:45:59 01/22/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Temptations?!?! posted by mrr on January 22, 2011 at 09:49:34
        
        The problem is that I gave them to my son and he's a bit partial to them. I probably could have picked up a pair of Klipschorns though. Back in the early '80s, I had a friend in Germany with a pair and a sweet tube amp - they were fantastic!
        
        ---
        
        Actually, the JBL L112s I mentioned are my daughter's now, but at least she lives right next door. I handed down a couple of pretty darn good systems to my kids. They both love music and my daughter plays a wide assortment of musical instruments - quite well, I might add.
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
Good old Wendell - mrr 13:26:26 01/20/11 (12)
I've met Wendell, and in my opinion he can be a bit condescending. More than a bit. If that's what PG is saying I must say that I'm inclined to understand his point. AND I dont often see PG's point...

bb
- RE: Good old Wendell - Peter Gunn 07:07:33 01/21/11 (11)
  Thanks............. I think.
  
  :^ )
  
  It's all about the music...
  - going forward... - mrr 12:12:35 01/21/11 (10)
    8-) You're Welcome. I'm sure!
    
    I often wonder what will happen to Magnepan when the inevitable happens and Wendell retires or (God forbid) drops in his tracks. As I've mentioned, I've met and talked with Wendell, but the conversations have been brief and face time even less. My point is that I dont really know the man at all. That said, I have been involved enough to form an opinion based on my observations. He's old enough to retire but he looks years younger. I saw him recently when he was doing his roadshow demoing the new home theatre stuff. I overheard him saying he'd just left the gym. He appears to be in fantastic shape and healthy as a horse as the old saying goes. My impression is that he's a type A workoholic. If any of this is true and the Winey's continue to employ him Wendell will be a major influence on Magneplanar's products for the next decade or two. IMHO this is both good, and bad. I appreciate that Magnepan makes the best high end speaker value available. From my selfish personal position I dont want that to change. I'd like to someday be able to afford their top of the line and that will never happen if Wendell decides to take MP into competition with the mega bucks crowd. Now, here's the rub; IF Wendell (and the Winey's) decided to make a statement speaker from a cost be damned we can make the best speaker in the world standpoint, I think that Magnepan would succeed beyond anyone's wildest expectations. In other words, and as others have said in this thread; Wendells a pro and he's been doing this a long time. If he had a statement he felt he needed to make he could have said it better, and he could have been courteous enough to say it in person. But that's Wendell...
    
    No offense to the OP.
    
    bb
    - RE: going forward... - magiccarpetride 12:34:39 01/21/11 (9)
      "IF Wendell (and the Winey's) decided to make a statement speaker from a cost be damned we can make the best speaker in the world standpoint, I think that Magnepan would succeed beyond anyone's wildest expectations."
      
      Not trying to open another can of worms here, but I just find it simply unbelievable that, to this day, Magnepan didn't find it ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to fit their speakers with proper bracing, spiking, and stands! Many of my friends, upon hearing Maggies for the first time, feel compelled to get up, approach one of the speakers, and look behind it. Next, they all tend to grab a hold of the speaker, and then invariably get shocked with the realization that the speaker is not standing firmly upright, but is very flimsy and allows even a small feeble child to rock it back and forth with ease.
      
      This is a major flaw, in my opinion, the one that should be fixable by the original manufacturer.
      
      It remains a huge mystery to me why would Magnepan discredit themselves so much in the eyes of potential buyers? I simply don't believe that they would be as audacious to claim that bracing and spiking the speakers produces no audible improvement in the sound quality. And even if they do claim this, at least they should acknowledge that the flimsiness that all potential buyers get surprised with, should be fixed, if for no other reasons, then just to project an image of solid workmanship.
      
      If someone is considering shelling out a couple of thousands of bucks on a pair of Maggies, at least they shouldn't feel like suckers for getting their hands on something that doesn't feel rock solid.
      - They don't claim it makes no difference - josh358 13:35:27 01/24/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 12:34:39
        
        In fact, Jim Winey is on record as having said that metal is a better material for frames, but that it's too heavy to ship.
        
        Basically, they aren't making a cost-no-object speaker, but one that's designed to be the best in its price point or category. And they use blind listening to determine which upgrades make the cut. So if enlarging the bass panels or adding a true ribbon has more bang for the buck than shoring up the frames, that's what they're going to go with.
        
        I suspect too that aesthetics has something to do with their decisions: as effective as braced stands are, they don't look as cool as the unadorned monolith.
      - RE: going forward... - DrChaos 16:13:16 01/21/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 12:34:39
        
        "I just find it simply unbelievable that, to this day, Magnepan didn't find it ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to fit their speakers with proper bracing, spiking, and stands! Many of my friends, upon hearing Maggies for the first time, feel compelled to get up, approach one of the speakers, and look behind it. Next, they all tend to grab a hold of the speaker, and then invariably get shocked with the realization that the speaker is not standing firmly upright, but is very flimsy and allows even a small feeble child to rock it back and forth with ease.
        
        This is a major flaw, in my opinion, the one that should be fixable by the original manufacturer."
        
        Sure it's nice if it were different, but is it really a *major* flaw? How much would it cost--all in, with dealer markup & shipping etc to fix?
        
        Grant's stands are $650 direct. Usually it's figured at nearly 2x for dealer sales, so $1200, let's call it $1000. $3000 for a 1.7+ or $2000 for a stock 1.7. Would they sound any different? Somewhere between "not" to "a little bit".
        
        Remember that unlike a box speaker it doesn't have to support a strong pressure gradient from from "in" to "out". The purpose is only to hold the drivers vertically.
        
        Here's where I think they ought to concentrate engineering: increasing stiffness and reducing flex in the pole piece.
        
        RE: going forward... - magiccarpetride 16:59:28 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by DrChaos on January 21, 2011 at 16:13:16
        
        "Sure it's nice if it were different, but is it really a *major* flaw? How much would it cost--all in, with dealer markup & shipping etc to fix?
        
        Grant's stands are $650 direct. Usually it's figured at nearly 2x for dealer sales, so $1200, let's call it $1000. $3000 for a 1.7+ or $2000 for a stock 1.7. Would they sound any different? Somewhere between "not" to "a little bit". "
        
        My recent experience with placing spikes under my Maggies (thanks to Grant's advice) showed me how important these things really are. I paid about $65.00 for the spikes. i'm sure the original manufacturer could get a much better deal on these same spikes (economy of scales), and should thus consider selling these speakers with the spikes already fitted. Do these spikes make a difference? You bet! What kind of a difference? I'd say the improvements in sound quality are enormous. Especially for that kind of investment.
        
        As far as bracing them goes, no one is suggesting they go with the top shelf product, such as Grant's stands. These are the Cadillac (or, the Rolls Royce) of the stands. A much more modest bracing could be offered as a default configuration, which will go a long way towards instilling more respect into the product. Tweakers will then probably think about replacing the vanilla braces with Grant's real stands.
        
        Right now, without the spikes and being so wobbly, they project a certain 'Mickey Mouse' air, unfortunately.
        
        The question then becomes - josh358 13:38:45 01/24/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 16:59:28
        
        whether they're going to cater to the expectations of audiophiles or have engineering integrity and go for the best sound for the buck. They've chosen the latter. Most of the rest of the "high end" audio business hasn't, so when we buy their equipment, we pay through the nose for features we don't need, like faceplates that cost more than the electronics.
        
        RE: going forward... - IEaudiodude 16:33:08 01/21/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by DrChaos on January 21, 2011 at 16:13:16
        
        I'm guessing part of the reason they made the stands the way they do is also done to keep that look of a thin sleek clean panel standing up in the room,looking almost like its balancing on its own and making great sound. Saving money on production is part of it but getting your attention with it's unique look is part of that wow factor lure.
        
        RE: going forward... - gtb75 20:12:49 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by IEaudiodude on January 21, 2011 at 16:33:08
        
        Besides the minimally invasive looks of the OE stands, they also make the speakers relatively easy to move (assuming you're on carpet). Convenient if you have a spouse who doesn't like the look of them standing 4-6 feet (or more) in to the room... Slide them out when you want to listen, slide them back when you don't. You can even lift them relatively easily since the stands don't weigh much. No way I could say that about 3.6's on Grant's stands!
        
        No they're certainly not the last word in rigidity, but if looks are and ease of placement/movement are concerns, they're not a bad option. Plus I'd guess they cost virtually nothing to make, so they don't add much to the cost. As others have said here, they're building a product to a price point where it provides good perceived value, yet still is profitable for them.
        
        RE: going forward... - JLindborg 16:45:29 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by IEaudiodude on January 21, 2011 at 16:33:08
        
        "I'm guessing part of the reason they made the stands the way they do is also done to keep that look of a thin sleek clean panel standing up in the room,looking almost like its balancing on its own and making great sound. Saving money on production is part of it but getting your attention with it's unique look is part of that wow factor lure."
        
        I totally agree!
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
      - RE: going forward... - JLindborg 13:09:00 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 12:34:39
        
        I agree with this.
        After reading the initial message and disregarding the condescending tone and rudeness, I find that they seem to lack pride of their product allowing messed up examples to reach the market and also don't care about the craftsmanship more then to the outer looks.
        
        It seems that they want to play in the big boys pool with a boat of good looking plastic that do float but lack the quality of the big boys war ships.
        
        It's "kind" of them to let the "masses" be able to get a hold of a pair of planars for lesser money and a lot of them doesn't care about looking under the socks and would probably not get any smarter if they did.
        
        As planars is regarded as HIGH END SPEAKERS from start, Magnepan will ride that wave but with low end build quality and QC.
        Well, they look cool and it's so incredible that sound can come out of those flat walls that some actually buy them for that.
        That's ok.
        
        But when the rest of the High End buyers that really care about build quality and sound quality, think they are doing a grate bargain on a pair of magneplanars, they are suddenly faced with the dire need of various upgrades.
        
        Personally I find the flimsiness of the hole-plate a serious design flaw.
        So serious that I find it really hard to see the seriousness of the design as a whole.
        But I may be not the main customer they want and look for.
        
        And I to not think that they would EVER present a "special" speaker with all the bells and whistles as that would just prove that the rest of their product line are made with less quality and parts.
        
        So in some way they make planar sound more available to more people with less money and less quality demand.
        And as PG has mentioned earlier, that's their business plan and it's OK.
        
        As for some forum members here... I am amazed of the lack of focus on topics and surrender themselves to personal attacks and childish comments.
        Very sad.
        It just puts a ugly stain on the forum and a bad taste in Your mouth.
        
        Cheers from a cold and snowy Sweden!
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        It's cold and snowy here too - josh358 13:46:38 01/24/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: going forward... posted by JLindborg on January 21, 2011 at 13:09:00
        
        But I'm mostly glad Maggies are the way they are. I couldn't care less what they look like inside, as long as they make good sound and work reliably, which they do. And while I'm all in favor of tweaks, I think they sound great out of the box.
        
        It isn't that I have anything against the Rolex-buying fit-and-finish crowd, there's something nice about Swiss watch precision, but personally, I wouldn't want to spend an extra cent for something that doesn't contribute to sound quality and that I won't even see until I fix or mod them.
        
        This is distinct from bad samples. We don't know what happened to the footprint unit, but, obviously, if it came torn from the factory, it's a serious lapse in quality control. So too those speakers that PG described that don't sound as good as they should because the wires are poorly laid.
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - ahendler 13:15:03 01/20/11 (3)
I wonder if we count all the people who own Maggies that post here and compare it to the total number of people who own Maggies what percentage are we. it may be we are such a small percentage of Maggie owners that we are greatly overstating our importance. Just a thought
Alan
- LOL! - wazoo 14:52:54 01/20/11 (0)
  In terms of percentage of total ownership, our numbers would represent a fraction of 1% - in a way, we aren't important at all. Most of us who tinker with our Maggies also tinker with other things. I've tinkered with audio gear for about 40 years. I tinker with cars too. It's part of the fun - what's wrong with Wendell's suggesting that we have fun?
  
  As the OP (well, the chap who delivered Wendell's message to this forum) opined, there are quite a few owners who participate in this and other forums who have not and never will modify their Maggies, and they are quite satisfied with them. As someone who recently purchased a pair of 3.6s, I can certainly see his point.
  
  "Information is not knowledge.
  Knowledge is not wisdom.
  Wisdom is not truth.
  Truth is not beauty.
  Beauty is not love.
  Love is not music.
  Music is THE BEST." FZ
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - magiccarpetride 13:37:03 01/20/11 (1)
  "I wonder if we count all the people who own Maggies that post here and compare it to the total number of people who own Maggies what percentage are we. it may be we are such a small percentage of Maggie owners that we are greatly overstating our importance. Just a thought"
  
  I would think that your assessment is correct. However, our self-perceived importance and weight on the subject is that we, the life long fans, tend to be on a constant upgrade treadmill, while most regular Maggies customers are pretty much once-in-a-life buyers. They buy their MMGs or their 1.6s etc., and then they just live with these, without ever feeling the itch to upgrade to higher models.
  
  Me, I won't rest until I get me a pair of 20.1s!
  
  And also, we (the inmates) tend to proselytize a lot about Magnepan; we are their foot soldiers, spreading the word, talking our friends and family, even complete strangers we meet on the train, into buying Maggies. We're doing incredible PR for the company. Not only do we not expect to be compensated for doing the guerilla, grass roots marketing for them, we're actually paying dearly out of our own pockets for the privilege to do so!
  
  No wonder many of us have developed this atrophied sense of entitlement.
  - RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - ahendler 15:12:55 01/20/11 (0)
    However if we are only a fraction of a percent then if we totally disappeared it wouldn't really make any difference to Magnapan. The fact that they respond to us at all seems to me a good thing
    Alan
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - Rod H. 08:50:53 01/20/11 (0)
Nice post. Reasonable, and not at all insulting or condescending to this DIYer.

Glad to see Magnepan is doing what they need to do to stay in business.
X2 to Dawn Razor and Wazoo... - Rod H. 08:47:13 01/20/11 (1)
Peter, seriously, have you considered getting some help?
- RE: X2 to Dawn Razor and Wazoo... - IEaudiodude 08:55:23 01/20/11 (0)
  wide range of medications .....................
Just checking in ........ - Joe Schmo 07:15:28 01/20/11 (2)
to make sure the old Asylum and all of its usual characters, topics and discussions are within "normal" range. What a treat that I stopped in today! This has to go down as an Asylum greatest hits thread. Even a Wendell Diller sighting!

;-)

-Joe

They're not that big!
- RE: Just checking in ........ - Peter Gunn 07:09:09 01/21/11 (1)
  See, everyone is so busy on their high moral ground it takes the nasty miscreant to say hi to you.
  
  Hi!
  
  So why have you been away? Suffering bouts of sanity?
  
  It's all about the music...
  - Hi Peter - Joe Schmo 14:53:07 01/21/11 (0)
    Hey Peter, I�m doing fine, but I haven�t had much time for Maggie over the past year. As the owner and director of two companies, it�s all about survival in these rapidly changing times, so that�s what most of my time is spent doing. Since Magnepan is no different than any other small American business they are obviously doing the same thing. I believe that was one of the main points Wendell was making in his comments and I certainly didn�t perceive any condescending tone towards tweakers or the Asylum community in general with what he said. We�ll just agree to disagree on that point.
    
    I do recall that when Wendell did post on this board in the past, he was treated rather poorly by several members (I don�t recall which ones), and I felt embarrassed over their treatment towards him. I feel the same now with this thread as it has descended to the depths of people attacking the pride he has in discussing his wife and a bit of her personal background. The way I see it he took the high road before and silently quit participating where he felt unwelcome rather than giving certain members of this board a rather well deserved �shove it up your a-hole� reply. That�s what I call good business.
    
    It sounds like business is still very good for you, so count yourself as fortunate that your overhead is low and regulations, both industry self imposed and government, are not strangling the life out of all that you work to accomplish.
    
    -Joe
    
    They're not that big!
always difficult - Green Lantern 20:38:41 01/19/11 (0)
First; it's always difficult discerning third party information.

Having said that, my very first impression when I bought my first Maggies back in '01 (MG1.6's) was "that's it?" when I saw those tall dark towers.

Once they were hooked up and playing nothing else mattered.

My point is- Jim Winey created (key word: "created") from the ground up a true modern marvel.

A first.

A humble man with a vision to bring true music to the masses, and make a buck or two along the way.

Too many companies have it the other way around (and why not, it's called 'capitalism').

Correct me if I'm wrong; but didn't the whole concept of 'stock car racing' come about by taking an already 'good car' and turning it into a 'racing car' (at the consumers cost)?

I think the same can be applied here.

Hey these are simple Midwestern folks running a company off the vision and genius of Jim Winey who simply cut corners making their product like a farmer might when his tractor fails.

I'm ok with that, I sleep well at night-because Maggies put me in a sleeping mood lol...yeah, include me into the 'disenchanted' group..

"You don't have to be faster than the lion....
just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - russ69 15:26:36 01/19/11 (0)
I think it was nice of Wendell Diller to take the time to have his statement posted. I'm sure he would be swamped if he tried to respond to every query posted on a website. It's good enough that he offered to talk on the phone to anybody that is interested. I think that's fine. Some people are just more comfortable on the phone than using other forms of communications. So I'll give him an A for effort.
You MUG guys are expecting way too much from a manufacturer. There is no way Wendell is going to talk about the research they are doing or the engineering trade-offs they have made in order to make a successful product. They are in business and they are not going to explain, in detail, the things that make their engineering choices viable in the marketplace. They are also not interested in hearing, "Why don't you do XXXXX". Trust me, they have made good choices or they wouldn't have been in business this long. It's fair for the user to offer a little bit of advice or criticism but the manufacturer, in most cases, already knows his products shortcomings and has already made the engineering trade-offs.
Anyway, the speculation is always fun to read and so are the opposing viewpoints. Remember that Lamborghini got started because he didn't like what Ferrari was doing........
Wow - Peter Gunn 12:39:01 01/19/11 (85)
I know any post of mine is going to be a lightning rod, but wow, I have to respond to this thing.

This "document" comes across, as Tolkien put it in TLOTR, as the remonstrance of a kindly king to an erring but much-loved minister. It's littered with much of the same old same old arrogance and
condescension they always exhibited - WE know better, please DON'T question us.

Even though he probably meant well, it all comes across as a talking down to. Now, I have said they are in business to be in business, so I am not going to attack their business model. If doing what they are doing keeps them in business (or they at least think it will) then that is their business. I have no comment on that.

However a lot of the commentary makes no sense and some is directed at us.

"We don't expend any energy or time to confirm or deny the effectiveness of any idea."

If you're like me you did 3 triple takes after reading that one. Yes, it simply boggles. That's a hell of a slogan to put over the workroom floor entrance...

Would you gamble with your job that your favorite tweak will be heard and appreciated by thousands of consumers?

What is of course ironic here is my "gamble" became my business. Again, not telling them what to do but this comment makes it clear they do not and will not EVER push the envelope. So this should settle it once and for all for those of you who keep expecting some miracle maggie. You'll never see it, the horses mouth just said so.

They used terminology that you would recognize.

What, like words from the English language? It's probably me but I find that comment came across really badly.... and nearly insulting.

As a manufacturer, we have the option of trying tweaks that far exceed what we read on the internet.

That's really an insult to the hard work and actual care and dedication of almost everyone here, and IMHO shows he doesn't know what he's talking about. The people of this forum have done more to advance this speaker in the past 20 years than they have, and that's a damn fact.

And this is what perhaps pisses me off the most. I could see if he said "I acknowledge a lot of what many of you have done betters our product, but it is not fiscally possible in these times and with audio as it is to try to incorporate them, but we do admire your contributions and success, and especially your passion for our product." That's a feel good statement (and a true one) for everybody.

But no. Instead we were told dad knows best, they've done things we never dreamed of, and we need to shut up and just buy what we're given, thank you.... well, at least we'll all rest better knowing Magnepan has 60 year old russian immigrants doing their blind testing now. And here Redwood thought they used young wetbacks....

All right, everyone start screaming...

It's all about the music...
- well said - mbnx01 07:54:21 01/20/11 (2)
  It's 'Minnesota Smug'. I lived in the Twin Cities for eight years. People there act like the sun shines out of their asses and can't imagine why anyone would live anywhere else.
  
  Someone should buy this company and move it to North Carolina. Texas, whatever.
  
  We'd see more improvement in 30 weeks than they've done in 30 years.
  
  I'm through with Magnepan until it has new owners/management.
  
  "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
  -Greg House
  - RE: it is known as Minnesota NIce - rolle.mark 20:36:58 01/21/11 (0)
    let's move all those ass-backwards Minnesota Audio Companies to the south since we midwesterners can't run good buisness.
    let's start with:
    Magnepan
    Audio Research
    Bel Canto
    NBS
    Atma-Sphere
    Paul Speltz Anti-Cables and Zeros Autoformers
    
    Just off the top of my head.
  - RE: well said - josh358 15:44:22 01/20/11 (0)
    For God's sake, why? There's nobody making speakers that can equal theirs for the price. They must be doing something right!
- RE: Wow - Dawnrazor 22:45:21 01/19/11 (11)
  Hey PG,
  
  that was an amazing post.
  
  I have a new co-worker who is a big fng windbag. He thinks that EVERYONE is so into him that he cant refrain from telling EVERYONE the same damn story. Yet he constantly complains that people wont shut the f up and that they talk too much!
  
  So I wonder where he gets the ability to completely ignore his own behavior but easily sees it in others.
  
  I wondered if I might work with you when you posted:
  
  It's littered with much of the same old same old arrogance and condescension they always exhibited - WE know better, please DON'T question us.
  
  As I wrote to once in a e-mail, dont waste your time in the audio business, but run for office...you are a natural!!
  
  Hey, where is Waz when you need him with the "pot and kettle" picture??
  
  No one here remembers the bending of our minds
  - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 07:02:09 01/20/11 (9)
    I'm very sorry but when are where in my post do I mention myself? As I have had to point out 50 times already it was not about me, you people keep interjecting me, which makes me wonder what your issue is. When I post maggies have QC issue you same people tell me how I hate the company. However another guy just posted about it but for some reason none of you said he hates magnepan. Isn't that strange...
    Why do we come to this place? To talk about how much we love magnepan speakers? "I just got maggies, I love em... yeah, I love em so much I got 2 pair... two pair, wow you must love em... I'll say, and frank has 3 pair.... 3 pair wow, how come he has 3 pair.... cause he loves em so much...wow..." Is this all that happens here?
    No, it's not.
    We come here because we do like them but we all, we all recognize they have inherent flaws. They don't need tweaking, they have inherent flaws. So we come to relate what we have done to address these issues and to see what others have done, and thereby make our experiences with them better.
    My first problem was he can't even post this himself, he needs a surrogate to post it. Why, can't they talk to us? Instead we get a Wizard of Oz like "Ignore that man behind the curtain" post.
    That post is a "from the horses mouth" explanation of why they do business the way they do it. I wasn't aware they owed us any such explanation, and nothing said in it was anything we didn't already know or assume. I don't know what prompted it, but I don't feel he needed to say any of it. Do what you do, we're not stopping you.
    However, this IS a special place with a LOT of special people. (who are not me in case you are confused again) Yet that note treats this forum like it's the general public and doesn't know any better. It is essentially trying to blow smoke up our proverbial "ass", and you don't see that?
    According to him maggies are fine as they are, they have no flaws, and they are made as well as they can be for a super price. (golden ears and russian gymnasts have agreed on this) What's more they have tried all these silly gimmicks, in fact more than you or anyone else could dream up and frankly that's all they are, gimmicks. But hey, if you want to have fun playing with your goop DR go right ahead, he wants you to have fun , but don't expect their company to give an idea that stupid credence, OK? That's all he said.
    I find that comment insulting to the people here who by and large know better, yet you read my post as talking about myself? If you're that far gone I shouldn't be trying to explain it to you.
    And finally, I didn't insult him like the other person in question does to people. I simply found his statement disagreeable and said so. I'm not allowed my own opinion, I have to have yours? If you didn't read that from it fine, I'm not going to pass judgement on you, and if I mistook him, my apologies Mr Diller, I was wrong. However if he said what I think he did and worse, truly believes it, someone here should sit him down and have a talk with him.
    If you could actually get off your horse for one second, think about their relationship with this site. This is the greatest accumulation of insight into these speakers there is. One would think they would take advantage of that. No, instead of selecting a focus group from here to put questions to, or even invite to the factory once a year for demo and input sessions, they ask 55 year old russian women what they think.
    Did they ever even have a presence here? No.
    When he did finally start posting here, he got asked questions (some rude but most civil) and he never answered one of them. NOT ONE.
    Now, he won't even post himself so he can't be asked questions.
    But you don't think this displays a company that has no use for us? That does not give one iota what we think? Look again at the recent post about all the QC issues that guy has with his maggies. Have they ever addressed that with us? Would they ever? Will they ever? There is enough evidence to suggest this company has sold speakers they knew were damaged when they left the factory (and if they don't know then by God are they clueless) yet they will not address this.
    But I'm arrogant, right? That's what you took from it? Again, it's funny how me having an opinion makes me arrogant but you telling me how wrong I am not sharing your opinion doesn't make you so. I didn't attack him, I just don't like what he said.
    
    It's all about the music...
    
    Edits: 01/20/11
    - RE: Wow - Dawnrazor 09:23:17 01/21/11 (0)
      Hey Pg,
      
      I think you failed to grasp my point. I never said I didnt agree with your post...in fact I can see why you feel as you do and think Wendell was being condescending and dismissive.
      
      IMHO his post was prompted by what we do and is a reaction of all the reports about how tweaking makes things better. He has to minimize this kind of thing. Certainly you do the same when anyone mentions anything besides your "frames and crossover" recipe. Waz has already detailed your "Wendell-like" comments:
      
      http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/16/167109.html
      
      All I am saying is that your very indignation at Wendells comments is funny because it is your own medicine!!!
      
      No one here remembers the bending of our minds
    - Remember PG - delaney@rea-apl.com 11:11:52 01/20/11 (0)
      Magnepan doesn't do email ... So WD couldn't post it himself!
    - RE: Wow - gtb75 07:57:26 01/20/11 (4)
      Peter,
      
      You state that "We come here because we do like them but we all, we all recognize they have inherent flaws" - that is simply not the case. And what the hell gives you the right to speak for "we all"? I've been coming to the MUG for years now, but my primary function was never modding them. I came here to find out what electronics pair well with them, how I can optimize my room placement/treatments, and to get the general feedback of others as to what works. Yes I see the modifications that others are doing and I purchased a set of Mye stands based on the things written here and on the AudiogoN forum, but I've never once had the desire to start tearing apart a pair of perfectly good speakers that sound just fine in my opinion. Is there potentially untapped performance in Magnepans, sure... That being said, I choose to unlock that potential by spending that money in other areas of my system - not by spending 2x to 3x the original purchase cost on modifying the speakers. Is that the right or wrong way to do it, I don't know? Is it how I personally choose to spend my money - yes.
      
      Also, as a businessman myself, I would NEVER bash another vendor - especially not the one that my livelihood exists on... It just makes you look bad. You've posted 12 TIMES in this thread already - trying to get people to come around to your way of thinking on this subject. Give it a rest already! There are a number of forums I participate in which BAN manufacturers for this kind of conduct... Maybe the MUG should consider doing this as well? For the most part, people posting in this thread are positive about what Wendell took the time to write and are supportive of Magnepan. People in this thread aren't required to see it your way (or my way for that matter), so accept that fact and move on.
      
      No you're not the only negative person in this thread, but the positives far outweigh the negatives here. While I haven't come out and directly asked him, I'd venture to say that you, more than any other single member, are what keeps him from actively participating here. Because of that, the whole group suffers... Think about that for a minute.
      
      Feel free to respond to this if you'd like, I've said my piece and will not create a dozen posts trying to get people "on my side". This is an internet forum where people are entitled to have their own opinions... I'm able to accept that and move on - are you?
      - RE: Wow - Satie 14:08:13 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by gtb75 on January 20, 2011 at 07:57:26
        
        PG is a craftsman and has a carpenter's attitude towards what is a mechanical product.
        
        The production issues and the QC issues bug him because he would not let come out of his workshop anything with the common QC nits and parts quality issues in the maggies.
        
        Read his criticism with that in mind and it will make sense to you.
        
        As with many other products in audio, the maggies leave alot more off the table than on it. The stock speakers are shadows of their potential.
        
        There is no source upgrade you can make that would compare to the effect of bracing or triamping. I know because I did so. Many of the tweakers here have found it to be so too.
        
        Being more frugal than the cool magnepan, I bought used and modified - the equivalent of a payment plan for a new large maggie and a super amp to drive them. But I ended up with something significantly better and at less than half the cost. But I went a little further than normal and dropped the original Tympani midrange for a line array of BG Neo8 drivers that have all the modern technology I always wished Magnepan managed to apply. Knowing what I did with my Tympani, I know that the retail price of it had Magnepan done so - essentially a Tympani with powered bass and high efficiency neodymium magnet push pull midrange. The retail price would be roughly
        basic Tympani speaker: 14,000-15,000,
        upgrade to Neodymium push pull midrange 5000
        Powered bass panels (2 kw) class D 4000-5000
        Electronic crossover (they would use a spec made Bryson 10b) 3000
        Bracing structures 3000
        Dealer assembly 2000
        
        Total 32,000
        
        They would sell about a dozen of these a year. Would it be a compelling value?
        
        It would be against a set of large 90degree Soundlabs or just maybe a set of 45 degree Ultimate soundlabs.
      - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 11:40:47 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by gtb75 on January 20, 2011 at 07:57:26
        
        I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me. I simply stated my opinion. Honestly, free speech in this country is illegal unless you walkstep with the chosen mantra.
        
        Some others entirely mis-represented my post, and I'm sorry, I'm not standing for that. If you don't like me defending myself, then by all means nobody is forcing you to read the posts, so don't. I can't fathom why people like you get uptight that I defend myself, but you don't get uptight that they entirely misread my post and turn it against me... but of course you did too, so perhaps that explains it.
        
        So what you're saying is that since there are more of them posting who disagree with me (which is meaningless anyway because neither of us knows what the hundreds not posting think) that my opinion is invalid, and I should shut up and accept what you and they think?
        
        How typical. You lambaste me for being arrogant but your unsupported suppositions are flying everywhere. Your comment I'd venture to say that you, more than any other single member, are what keeps him from actively participating here. is a perfect example. I happen to know for a fact that a person who talks to him on the phone regularly told me that he mentioned me to him - He had and has no idea who I am or what I do. But I am sorry I am the reason he doesn't talk nice to you.
        
        I'm also sorry if I mis-catagorized what goes on here because I overlooked you and your 6 posts. But you and the rest of my detractors are free to put as big a smiley face on his post as you like. Unlike you I am not trying to control your opinion, or insult you for having it.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        I can only sat one thig (maybe more) - macmagman 17:31:40 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 11:40:47
        
        If it wasn't for the GREAT help from everyone here mostly Mr. Gunn I would have never entered into the great world of Magnepan. I was a 30 yr owner of Dahlquist DQ 10's and always loved the open sound. When I decided after 30 yrs to make a change Maggie's came into the picture. I was advised to make sure that the Maggie's I went to were 3 way and had a true ribbon tweeter. This left me with the 3 series. I can't plunk down 5K for new 3.6's and was (well) advised the used market is sketchey at best mostly due to the delam and ribbon issues. After spending some time here I was confident that I could fix the short commings and bought a set of 3.3's. Sure enough it had a blown tweeter and the delam issue. After some hours a very small investment in money, I have a new love affair and my mistress is Maggie.
        
        This is all due to and made possible by all of the GREAT help that I have here, otherwise I would NEVER had made the plunge. DON'T stop what your doing even if it means some people get mad, you have not posted anything but the absolute truth. And who knows if I do someday have 5K there is no doubt I will buy new 3.7's and that's due to the great people here. Now excuse me I need to finish my newly constructed stands.
        
        Dan
        
        OOPs I ment to say, say one thing (maybe more) (nt) - macmagman 17:34:03 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I can only sat one thig (maybe more) posted by macmagman on January 20, 2011 at 17:31:40
        
        a
    - RE: Wow - IEaudiodude 07:24:11 01/20/11 (1)
      "There are only 2 things any maggie needs done:
      
      1 - a better XO
      2 - a wooden frame"
      
      That little statement speaks volumes. Do you really think that's it ? a statement like that says that ALL of us that aren't doing it that way are simply wasting our time and come on here to share ideas and tweaks that serve no purpose.
      - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 07:54:31 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by IEaudiodude on January 20, 2011 at 07:24:11
        
        If you have a car that can go 120 mph but it can't go over 30 mph it is safe to assume it has a problem.
        
        If you fix it and it can go 120 mph, then that fix was the problem. If there is any other way to achieve 120 mph with it then that too is also a viable repair. In fact someone may find a way to make it do 140.
        
        And no, I don't think that's it. In fact all of us would implement changes we think are better if we magically could alter our speakers any way we wanted - better magnets, different frame sizes or shapes, variations of the pole piece technology etc... some would fail miserably and some might be damn magic. Since when does progress stop?
        
        That said there is only so much that can be done with it as it comes. I have my opinions, others have theirs.
        
        In any event his statement was that in his opinion they are fine as is and no tweak is needed, not which tweak is best.
        
        If asked what I think I'll say what I think, or once again am I not allowed my opinion, only yours?
        
        If I have an opinion, I'm arrogant?
        
        You have one, but you're not?
        
        Am I only arrogant if I say my opinion?
        
        Again however you're not for expressing yours.
        
        And why do we come here, to be silent? I can be silent here home alone. I thought we came here to express opinions?
        
        And why is it OK for you to twist this into being about me again? I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about what he said to US. His note wasn't talking to us, it was talking at us. If you didn't see it that way, fine, I respect that. I didn't see it that way however. So unless you're saying you have a right to express yourself I don't have, I am very unclear what your problem is.
        
        It's all about the music...
  - I'm a little 'slow' - wazoo 05:41:14 01/20/11 (0)
    You have a point - a very good one. Let's imagine that Wendell's comment was a slight to tweakers like PG. Wouldn't that just be a case of: Touch�! In this very thread, PG comments very negatively on the .7 series which is the proud result of Magnepan's own 'tweaking'. I'd say the picture for which you called is highly appropriate.
    
    PG meets Magnepan's Wendell Diller
    
    ...or maybe this is more appropriate ;-)
    
    PG reacts to Wendell's address
    
    "Information is not knowledge.
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    Wisdom is not truth.
    Truth is not beauty.
    Beauty is not love.
    Love is not music.
    Music is THE BEST." FZ
    
    Edits: 01/20/11
- No screaming here. - esande 16:40:04 01/19/11 (24)
  I think Magnepan delivers amazing value for money. QC issues (which as you say may be isolated occurences) aside, they are very good speakers. Stock, they may not be works of art, but they are made well enough to deliver the goods.
  I can appreciate a cost-optimized basic design, especially when it stands the test of time.
  I wouldn't try to over interpret what Mr Diller wrote. If, as he stated the last time he visited here, they can sell all they can make, then from a business perspective Magnepan is successful.
  I also wouldn't narrowly parse what he says. It takes a politician to put things in such a way as not to offend _anyone_, and I think Mr Diller is not a politician. What he did say, I think, besides being mostly honest (with one exception which I'll get to) was:
  1) We can't afford to try things that we don't absolutely know work.
  2) We know our market well enough to know what it will bear.
  3) We do keep track of what you guys say but a lot of what you can do
  as individuals is too expensive/unproven for us to do as a company.
  4) The leadership torch has been passed to Mark Winey and we remain
  committed to the continuation of the mission.
  Now the only statement that I found somewhat questionable was the one about competing with China. Where are the Chinese Magnepans? Are planar-magnetic/ribbon speakers even an area where there is another low cost player?
  Now, I appreciate that taken in a certain light Mr Diller could have pissed some people off. But I think, Peter, that you operate at a completely different level than Mr Diller. I wouldn't even call you a competitor unless maybe your mods cost Magnepan a few sales of next-higher-up models, which is possible.
  I don't think Mr Diller meant to diss anyone, certainly I didn't take it that way...
  FWIW.
  
  Edits: 01/19/11 01/19/11
  - RE: No screaming here. - morricab 03:44:05 01/20/11 (0)
    King sound electrostats and Quads are also made in china now.
  - RE: No screaming here. - Peter Gunn 20:13:16 01/19/11 (19)
    Everyone is interpreting my post wrong. It is not about me. It is not about their business model. Would everyone please go and actually read what I wrote.
    
    The slight I perceived was towards the tweaking community in general, of which I am only one person of very many. I was defending what we all have done, not what I may have done.
    
    In one sentence he says they've tried everything, even things we never thought of, and the next minute he says they don't have time to examine every nuance and they don't care to try. Well which is it?
    
    Well, whatever it was supposed to be I clearly didn't understand.
    
    It's all about the music...
    - RE: No screaming here. - josh358 16:11:53 01/20/11 (0)
      Yeah, he was unclear there. But I think he was saying that they've tried versions of pretty much every tweek, which I believe, based both on evidence and common sense. But they haven't tried the *specific* tweaks here. So if someone says Sonicaps, say, improve the crossover, they haven't evaluated that specific statement.
    - It's not about me - sorry, Charlie. - wazoo 05:13:20 01/20/11 (2)
      You lost the right to speak for anything the rest of this community does when you repeatedly criticized such actions. According to you, yours is the only path to greatness. So, now you have the gaul to intimate that you are speaking for the entire community - a community to which you have been disrespectful.
      "There are only 2 things any maggie needs done:
      1 - a better XO
      2 - a wooden frame"
      By 'a better XO', you were speaking of yours and only yours. By wooden frames, you mean that they must be constructed as you built them.
      "IMHO this dynamat topic has been adopted by people who can't or won't fix this problem the right way, and that is by making wooden frames. If you're making frames, do yourself a favor and forget the dynamat."
      Well, someone suggests an alternative method of dealing with the vibrations you claim to be the whole problem and you can't accept the possibility that he might have a point - how respectful, eh?
      "It's not rigidity. As I just said to someone above, as far as I can see everyone in the past "assumed" things and then did stuff to their speakers to fix them. If the slightest improvement followed they assumed the assumption was correct. It wasn't.
      I was the first one (I think) to go outside that box and try to figure out what the problem actually was. In doing that, I did."
      It's not rigidity - subtext, don't waste your money on Mye Stands. The rest is a nice example of your ego.
      "Barry, I think it's time you went to the trouble to mod them properly."
      As I said, everyone else in this community is just piddling around. Your mods are the only ones that are proper.
      Should I continue? There are many, many more of these. You state over and over (ad nauseam) that your way is the way and that everything else is just a waste of time. We aren't idiots. We remember what you say. You can't claim that the offense you took from Wendell's comments were about anyone except you , or is this a matter of your being the only one permitted to insult others in this community? Isn't it curious that you are the only one to take Wendell's comments as an offense?
      You really should consider a career in politics. You have the demeanor for it.
      
      "Information is not knowledge.
      Knowledge is not wisdom.
      Wisdom is not truth.
      Truth is not beauty.
      Beauty is not love.
      Love is not music.
      Music is THE BEST." FZ
      
      Edits: 01/20/11
      - RE: It's not about me - sorry, Charlie. - IEaudiodude 06:57:34 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's not about me - sorry, Charlie. posted by wazoo on January 20, 2011 at 05:13:20
        
        Thanks wazoo, VERY well said. I just read 11 posts from a person who doesn't let things bother him ,that's 11 when he isn't upset, can you imagine if he was upset ? of course you can, we read it all the time ! If I were Wendell there would be no way in hell I would come on here either .....Why would he want to listen to that every time he signed on ?
        
        RE: It's not about me - sorry, Charlie. - Norman M 07:54:04 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's not about me - sorry, Charlie. posted by IEaudiodude on January 20, 2011 at 06:57:34
        
        He could sign on here, informing readers of a promise to pull his weight around Magnepan to address their QC issues. Instead we learn about "Galina"; why in hell his WD's personal life of importance to any reader? He could just as easily said that an *impartial* 55 year old female auditioned their speakers. As an aside, and in the Russian wife market, I have a 70 year old brother-in-law whose found much youger Russian women eager to emmigrate to the US in the hope of obtaining their green cards. Unfortunately, and if you're interested in such situations, most seem to come along with children. And by the way I side with PG in all of this. Please God, protect us.
    - RE: No screaming here. - morricab 03:45:13 01/20/11 (0)
      "The slight I perceived was towards the tweaking community in general, of which I am only one person of very many. I was defending what we all have done, not what I may have done.
      "
      
      Apparently you were about the only one to "perceive" this slight. I read it and I didn't get that impression.
    - A message from "Peter Gunn" at Magnestand - Davey 21:22:54 01/19/11 (0)
      "It's not about me."
      
      I laughed out loud at that one. :) Thank you very much.
      
      Dave.
    - I get it. - esande 20:56:09 01/19/11 (12)
      It really comes down to two sentences:
      
      "I don't recall a tweak that we haven't tried in some fashion."
      
      Fair enough, and probably true. Magnepan has engineers, and they probably HAVE tried a boatload of changes over the past 40 years. Some of them made it into production and likely most of them didn't.
      
      They still have to hit a price point.
      
      "We don't expend any energy or time to confirm or deny the effectiveness of any idea."
      
      A (possibly) badly constructed sentence. I think what he meant to say was that they don't arbitrarily evaluate third party ideas just because they come down the pike. I have a feeling that they KNOW that some of those ideas, maybe, almost certainly MOST of them, aren't going to be economically feasible from a production standpoint.
      
      To my way of thinking that isn't a diss, it's just a realistic statement that they can't act as a free laboratory for anything that some civilian proposes.
      
      That he says that we're having fun and he sees no reason to mess with that is GOOD. It's not a value judgement on what people are doing here.
      
      Mr Diller KNOWS he can't duplicate anything close to full-monte Magnestands and still make money.
      
      Probably they even have some, I would if I were in their place.
      
      I'd have some Apogees around too, and they MUST have taken them apart at one time to determine the patent infringement.
      
      And I'd have some Analysis Audios, etc. If I were making Fords I'd KNOW what Chevy and BMW and even Bugatti were doing.
      
      But if the mission is to make and sell Magnepans at a price point, it might be nice to know that Analysis Audio and maybe even PG can do it in thus and such a way, it's just that that's not the way I've chosen to do it.
      
      At least, that's the way I see this.
      
      If it's any consolation I think your mods are great value for the money and truly take the Maggies a Hell of a lot closer to their potential than stock.
      - Meaning of Second Sentence - HarlemAirShaft 22:58:25 01/20/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I get it. posted by esande on January 19, 2011 at 20:56:09
        
        What he is saying is that Magnepan won't confirm or deny how they feel about all the tweaks they have tried.
        
        In other words, if you ask them how they feel about changes to crossovers or stands or orientation or WHATEVER, they will ignore you or simply say "no comment".
        
        He thinks they have tried - and therefore evaluated - EVERY tweak in the world. All the ones on boards like this one and tons of others we would probably never imagine. And they are unwilling to offer their opinion on these tweaks. Not that they haven't FORMED an opinion, just that they won't "confirm or deny the effectiveness of any idea". Sounds like they realize that "expending energy and time" on confirming or denying ain't gonna add to their coffers - SO WHY BOTHER?
        
        It sounds greatly like the source of the original posting is in dire need of an enema - because he is completely full of himself.
        
        Not a diss? One of my wife's friends happily told her she had regifted the birthday present my wife gave her last year. She may not have thought telling my wife in that way would upset her, but it surely did. And Mr. Diller may not have thought he was being condescending, but he surely was!
        
        RE: Meaning of Second Sentence - josh358 06:49:24 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Meaning of Second Sentence posted by HarlemAirShaft on January 20, 2011 at 22:58:25
        
        WHAT WENDELL DILLER WAS DOING WAS TELLING THE TRUTH and trying to do it gently and with good humor.
        
        Sorry for shouting, but I've worked in pro audio and video for many years, and I've also been a hobbyist, and if you think that the dabbling we do in a place like this is anything like what goes on in professional surroundings you're seriously naive.
        
        This is an AMATEUR activity. It bears much the same relationship to professional activity that a home movie does to an episode of Star Wars.
        
        Wendell Diller does NOT need us to tell him how he should design his speakers. We know LESS about planar design and Magnepan's market than he does. He's been doing this full time for years.
        
        And if his job is like any I've ever had, he doesn't have time to "confirm or deny" tweaks because he's trying to get new products out the door and yeah, he's concerned with the bottom line, because his job, and that of the people he works with, depends on it.
        
        Sorry, but I'm getting tired of seeing this guy crucified because he alluded, however gently, to what I would have thought was an obvious truth. The one piece of business advice I would ever give him would be to refrain from doing this in the future, because it's obvious that anything other than empty-headed phony PR flattery is going to be taken the wrong way by people who mistake their erector sets for a construction company.
        
        RE: Meaning of Second Sentence - Green Lantern 00:54:13 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Meaning of Second Sentence posted by HarlemAirShaft on January 20, 2011 at 22:58:25
        
        also I think -in a somewhat 'subtle' manner he's saying look; if 'Aunt Betsy' can't tell the difference between a $4 cross-over vs a $400 cross-over, then guess which one we're going to use to save ur ass money.
        
        "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
        just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
        
        A-HA! I KNEW Aunt Betsy was the problem! (nt) - Peter Gunn 06:15:39 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Meaning of Second Sentence posted by Green Lantern on January 21, 2011 at 00:54:13
        
        It's all about the music...
      - agree and would add... - Green Lantern 00:23:20 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I get it. posted by esande on January 19, 2011 at 20:56:09
        
        I remember reading wut, oh two-three years ago that Steve Winey (Jim's son and heir apparent) had: NOT 20.1's, NOT 3.6's, in his home but (as he put it) 'heavily modded 1.6's'.
        
        Not further info was provided.
        
        Talk about danglin' us on a chain..! lol
        
        Man-you gotta love this hobby!
        
        "You don't have to be faster than the lion....
        just the guy running next to you.." -anonymous
      - I don't think anyone gets it. - Peter Gunn 22:03:48 01/19/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I get it. posted by esande on January 19, 2011 at 20:56:09
        
        My post was not about me, everyone else is making it about me. He wrote a note to a board of "tweakers" and in it he dismissed tweaking. His point was....? I thought it was odd and a little rude, but to this board, not me.
        
        I admit it's probably not what he wanted to say or how he wanted to say it, but it still came across to me like that. Frankly, it didn't need to be said and he doesn't owe any of us an explanation.
        
        For the 30th time my post had nothing to do with what they do or don't do. I don't care. It also had nothing to do with me. I can't speak anymore without people automatically assuming I'm talking about me. I was not talking about me.
        
        Anyway, I'm the local whipping boy. I've had so many detractors like Davey make rude and unfounded attacks against me so long I couldn't care less. I don't even read them and they don't bother me, and I didn't take Wendells post personally either. I just think it would be nice if we and the parent company could find some common ground and his note seems to be saying there simply is none. I don't think either side really understands the other.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: I don't think anyone gets it. - JLindborg 00:31:11 01/20/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I don't think anyone gets it. posted by Peter Gunn on January 19, 2011 at 22:03:48
        
        I am at least 1 person that agrees 100% with You PG.
        I guess some people don't seem to actually read what You write or just don't have the insight.
        I construct and repair myself and I also found the message a bit... rude and condescending.
        Knowing quite a bit from my own and other planar designs I find the comment somewhat ignorant.
        But anyway... there are always "hard core" owners that probably shivered in aw by just reading the message.
        Cheers from Sweden!
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 01/20/11
        
        RE: I don't think anyone gets it. - Peter Gunn 07:21:46 01/20/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I don't think anyone gets it. posted by JLindborg on January 20, 2011 at 00:31:11
        
        Thank God, a voice of sanity in the wilderness... :^ )
        
        However I have always felt Swedes were the most level headed people on the planet, so I'm not surprised.
        
        For the record, I think they read it but don't care. It's an excuse to get the poison pen out and attack me, and who among them can pass that opportunity up? They say it's about me... it's actually about them.
        
        You hang on too, we're past the half way point of winter. I know how much you guys love the summer. If it was 70 degrees here everyday and light till 11 PM I'd love it too. :^ )
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        Agree and Disagree - Webnick 09:14:27 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I don't think anyone gets it. posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 07:21:46
        
        As the several posts in this thread indicate, you are obviously not alone when it comes to the perceived slight to the modder/tweaker community in the OP. My first post on the subject was a diluted and perhaps a politically more correct assertion of same (PG, don't go into politics) :> ) However, sometimes you can be something of an ass when it comes to delivering your opinions/posts, which are usually valid, thoughtful, and helpful opinions/posts but that sometimes seem rather caustic (kind of like the opinions of Antonin Scalia - obviously, a very intelligent leader of the conservative Supremes - he can't seem to make a conservative point without personally trashing the liberals holding opposing viewpoints). And, of course, there is no doubting your contributions to the MUG and your talent in framing, etc. I think you have to accept that the ad hominem attacks against you come with 'the territory.' So you know what they say: no one likes a smart ass, but everyone wants a piece of it! You go, boy!
        Illegitimus non carborundum.
        
        RE: Agree and Disagree - Peter Gunn 11:54:44 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Agree and Disagree posted by Webnick on January 20, 2011 at 09:14:27
        
        So now I'm the Antonin Scalia of the planar asylum? Well, there could be worse fates....
        
        I can be something of an ass huh? I'll have to try harder then and use my whole ass.
        
        What bothers me are the other asses who prompt my assininity (?) by attacking me with lies, warping my posts, saying things I didn't say or entirely mis-catagorizing it, and NOBODY ever takes them to task. They always get a free ride. (and it's remarkably the same people)
        
        Sorry, not on my watch. If being as ass is what's required to hold them accountable, then an ass it will be. I only now and ever have everyones best interests at heart, and all I said was I found his post a bit insulting. A few others agreed, yet ironically nobody is attacking them or calling them asses. And people rarely defend me because they know they'll be in the crosshairs next, and who would willingly want that?
        
        But I get LOTS of email support when this sort of thing happens, so I have a very good idea what the unshaven and unposting masses think.
        
        Anyway, this sort of thing needs to happen every so often to shake the dust up and keep the place interesting. If anyone thinks this affair is that dire they really need a new perspective. I very much doubt Wendell is going to cry himself to sleep tonight.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        LOL! nt - Webnick 12:26:43 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Agree and Disagree posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 11:54:44
        
        .
        Illegitimus non carborundum.
        
        Is this a case of "Midgets unite"?? :-)) ... - andyr 01:10:59 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I don't think anyone gets it. posted by JLindborg on January 20, 2011 at 00:31:11
        
        Are you also 1.2m high, JL? Do you have a mullet? :-))
        
        Regards from rainy Australia, :-))
        
        Andy
  - RE: No screaming here. - josh358 19:03:54 01/19/11 (1)
    Not Chinese Magnepans -- yet -- though I believe some planar drivers are being made in China, and in some cases (as in the home theater market) there could be product overlap.
    
    However, Magnepan competes not just against other planar manufacturers, but against other speaker manufacturers in general, and I think that's significant. If low Chinese wages and Chinese currency cheating bring down the cost of box speakers, the price/performance advantage of Magnepan's technology is eroded. That in turn reduces market share.
    
    Most businesses would react to that -- have reacted to that -- by moving their manufacturing operations offshore. To their credit, Magnepan has chosen to stay here and compete. I hope they can hang on until we the people wise up and elect some politicians who, unlike both of our national parties, decide that it's time to stop exporting our factories, our jobs, and our prosperity to low wage countries that steal our intellectual property, protect their markets and dump into ours, ban exports of rare earth minerals in violation of trade agreements, and then, just to make sure that we're thoroughly screwed, look the other way while their nutty client states develop nukes.
    - They make speakers that come in boxes? :-) - esande 19:42:43 01/19/11 (0)
      Just kidding. Your points are well taken.
      
      I guess it's a valid concern. I don't underestimate the desirablility of onshore manufacturing, it certainly has driven a lot of my gear choices, and will continue to do so.
  - RE: No screaming here. - gtb75 17:40:03 01/19/11 (0)
    In my conversations with Wendell, I get the impression he wears many hats at Magnepan... I don't know that for fact - jut what I'm gathering from talking to him. As for specific questions/comments, I'll respond to a few of them:
    
    TitaniumTroy: I didn't have any crossover discussions with him - active or otherwise. Feel free to call him if you have any thoughts/questions on the subject.
    
    magiccarpetride: Find a different dealer if there is one in your area. My dealer is ordering a pair of 3.7 demos for each of their 4 locations, and keeps inventory on a fair number of their speakers. My dealer loves Maggies!
    
    As for where Wendell is coming from in asking me to post this, based on my conversations here, I'd say grantv's (still love my stands Grant) and russ69's comments are probably closest to the mark. As for the negative comments in this thread, I encourage you to pick up the phone and call him if you have an issue, comment on what he asked me to post, or anything else.
    
    Honestly, based on some of the negative comments in this thread, I think him taking the high road (as a manufacturer) and not getting in to a pissing match with certain individuals here is probably for the best. My personal feeling is Magnepan should have some kind of internet presence beyond their website (maybe AudioCircle), but even that requires bandwidth to moderate and maintain. Bottom line, Magnepan builds a great sounding product that reviews and sells well. Is it the perfect loudspeaker for everybody - no... Has it stood the test of time, almost always get favorable industry press, and continued to attract new customers - yes. Unfortunately you can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. That being said, they've made enough people happy to be in business for over 40 years, and that says a lot in my book :)
    
    Lastly, in case anybody is interested, here's what my rig consists of:
    
    - Magnepan MG 3.6's
    - REL Stadium II
    - Odyssey Kismet Monos in Stratos cases (double transformers don't fit in the pretty Kismet case)
    - dCS Delius (running directly to the Kismets)
    - Meridian 500 MK III transport
    - Squeezebox Touch
    - All SignalCable speaker cables, interconnects, and power cables
- I think you need to... - mdl 15:48:56 01/19/11 (3)
  I think you need to go to Minnesota and spend some time ice fishing. :-)
  
  I think the OP provided a very nice post from a great businessman who still makes his product in the USA.
  
  People wonder why they would not engage directly here? The answer is more than clear.
  
  I actually agree with the Magnepan perspective. You are a complementary manufacturer with an opposing point of view in many areas (including how to evaluate a design change). Given their stance (whether you agree with it or not) brings you some measure of business I think you should just read it for what it is. I read no arrogance, no insult... just the process of a manufacturer who has made all of our lives richer.
  - RE: I think you need to... - Peter Gunn 19:59:56 01/19/11 (2)
    As a hockey player I have always hated ice fishermen. I waited all year as a kid for ponds to freeze only to fall and nearly kill myself tripping over some hole cut in the ice I didn't see. :^ )
    
    I think everyone entirely missed my point however. I have no problem with their business model. How many times must I say that? No problem.
    
    My anger rose over what I read as a very real slight against anything we have done to "tweak" their product.
    
    Fact - we ALL know the changes we make are real and positive. So for him to say it's all some blurry fantasy we're trying to convince ourselves of, and being a "reputable company" they can't put stock in tweak-ism is incredibly insulting.
    
    I get that most of what we do is not fiscally practical for them, and have always said so. He did not need to defend that they don't do any of it and I am not upset that they don't do what we do.
    
    I'm upset that he just essentially said what we do is a joke, but if we "have fun" doing it they don't care. I don't think what we've accomplished here is a joke, and in fact THEY should be proud of what we've done.
    
    There is an interesting parallel to all this. Sierra made a computer game called Red Baron, which was a WWI flight sim. Being a WWI aviation afficionado I was very much into it. The original was bad but it got updated as RB II which was a real game (and there was finally a RB IIID upgrade)
    
    WWI aviation nuts are like maggie speaker nuts. People took that game system and "tweaked" it beyond imagining, making hundreds of patches that introduced real sounds, more lifelike aircraft paintings as well as more of them until they had included every plane that ever flew, improved terrain graphics, missions etc... and they invented a campaign manager to utilize it all. And like here they gave it away for free.
    
    If you knew the genre, it was amazing. Once I'd installed it all I was flying a patrol and almost fell off the chair when Willy Coppens flew by me in his Nieuport. Now, straights would never notice that, but being a student of the period I knew him and his plane and it was rendered so well I recognized it instantly. It was actually an amazing experience. (Coppens was Belgiums leading ace of the war, and he also shot down more balloons than anyone else in the war which in itself was a feat becausethey are the most dangerous of all targets being low to the ground and surrounded by guns)
    
    These people petitoned Sierra to take their work and release it as a fully functioning game, and many were willing to give their hard labor for free to make it happen. Sierra declined stating there just was not enough of a market of WWI nuts to make it viable. And so it goes...
    
    But at least Sierra had the decency to highly commend the work everyone had done.
    
    So I get it's not possible or practical, but a nod to what we've accomplished IMHO would have been the right thing to do.
    
    It's all about the music...
    - RE: I think you need to... - josh358 16:44:28 01/20/11 (0)
      > Fact - we ALL know the changes we make are real and positive. So for him to say it's all some blurry fantasy we're trying to convince ourselves of, and being a "reputable company" they can't put stock in tweak-ism is incredibly insulting.
      
      Honestly, I don't think that's what he said. In fact, I think he's expressed himself on the topic before, saying that they can't incorporate things that *only a few people can hear* or something to that effect. That I think was his goal in mentioning the Russian woman. Listening panel tests tend to gloss over small differences, and focus a manufacturers' efforts on large ones. As such, they're a good tool for someone who's selling a product to a mass market. They also filter out imaginary differences, and it seems to me quite likely that he thinks some of the differences here could fall under that rubric. I certainly do. But believing that doesn't mean that he considers all the differences here imaginary or inconsequential, again, any more than I do. They just may not offer the kind of bang for the buck that they're after. Or like your woodworking or Grant's stands, they may not be feasible at the price point for which they're aiming. We know they make this kind of call, like any manufacturer, since Jim Winey said that metal frames would be better than MDF, but that they're too heavy to ship.
    - Ice and bias... - mdl 20:25:05 01/19/11 (0)
      I grew up in a province with 100,000 lakes... we had enough room for ice fishing and hockey :-) I won't even get into the superiority of fishing in Canada :-)
      
      I remember when I first started tweaking my system and would try things. It took me awhile to understand whether something was a change, or a change for the better. I have a healthy amount of distrust for a lot of tweaks, partly because I have seen a lot of scams, and partly becuase I am a scientist. I read Wendell's statement on tweaks as an attempt to be entirely non-judgemental, whether they think things work or they do not. I see no arrogance here. I see a manufacturer who has a specific process (one I agree with) attempting to be as hands off as possible and let the community enjoy itself.
      
      As for your software example, I do a lot of community source work and think it is a beautiful thing. It is a different thing for me as you are dealing with strongly verifiable models, though certainly there is a lot in common with people who do things out of pride and enjoyment.
- RE: Wow - magiccarpetride 14:14:30 01/19/11 (16)
  "Again, not telling them what to do but this comment makes it clear they do not and will not EVER push the envelope."
  
  I agree with this. I think in their minds, they're saying "why change the winning team?"
  
  Theirs is the position of having a hen that lays golden eggs. They're selling the eggs, not the hen. We then take those eggs and turn them into more elaborate artwork etc. We can't expect them to elaborate on the golden eggs they're selling.
  
  A burning question: suppose Magnepan folds (worst case scenario, they just can't stay afloat; blame it on lousy management, dishonest accountants, global warming, wikileaks, whatever...) -- who will then carry the torch?
  
  My understanding, from the little that I read about this speaker technology here, is that, technically speaking, there isn't anything oh-so-fancy about the basic Maggies architecture. It's mostly all about the patented "intellectual property" that keeps the startup competition at bay. If the company folds and defaults on the "intellectual property", how difficult would it be for the community to pick up the slack and 'own' or 'misappropriate' the technology (sort of how Linux community misappropriated the Unix technology)?
  
  Something tells me (however, I may be dead wrong on this one) that it wouldn't be too too difficult nor costly to build these speakers from ground up (now that we understand the ingenious idea and the guiding principles behind it), and in the process explore opportunities for making them even better. Sort of like an open-source community based project (again, I'm drawing upon the Linux example).
  
  Am I way off?
  - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 19:30:39 01/19/11 (13)
    I have heard from a reputable source that every patent has expired.
    
    And nobody is picking up any torches... so if they did fold I think we'd be pretty much #@&*ed.
    
    However as I said, their business model is their concern. I wasn't making commentary on that, I just did not like what I perceived as a "look down" on what we have done here. I frankly think the contributions of a great many inmates here have been quite extraordiniary, and for him to so casually dismiss it, IMHO, was very rude.
    
    It's all about the music...
    - RE: Wow - magiccarpetride 10:15:28 01/20/11 (12)
      "I have heard from a reputable source that every patent has expired."
      
      Anyone knows what these patents are? They must be available for review online, no?
      
      So once the patent expires, the original publisher has no right to renew it?
      
      "And nobody is picking up any torches... so if they did fold I think we'd be pretty much #@&*ed."
      
      That's terrible to hear. I was hoping that there would be a way to ensure that this brilliant technology continues to live regardless of how well/lousy the original manufacturers are doing.
      
      "However as I said, their business model is their concern. I wasn't making commentary on that, I just did not like what I perceived as a "look down" on what we have done here. I frankly think the contributions of a great many inmates here have been quite extraordiniary, and for him to so casually dismiss it, IMHO, was very rude."
      
      Peter, really, who cares? You expecting a pat on the back from the original manufacturer? Grow up!
      - RE: Wow - josh358 16:53:50 01/20/11 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 10:15:28
        
        > That's terrible to hear. I was hoping that there would be a way to ensure that this brilliant technology continues to live regardless of how well/lousy the original manufacturers are doing.
        
        It will, it's already used by several other manufacturers. Eminent Technology makes push-pull speakers that are similar to Maggies. Two or three companies make Apogee clones. BG and Wisdom make planars iwth enclosures and highly-regarded planar magnetic drivers:
        
        http://wisdomaudio.com/index.php
        
        Some of those BG planar drivers are used in offerings from other companies as well.
        
        But none of these companies occupy quite the same niche as Magnepan. HP, in describing the 20.1 in his 2011 Editor's Choice list, wrote, "It is one of the rare high-end components that comes close to suggesting the sound of music itself." I fear that if Magnepan disappears or as not infrequently happens with these companies gets sold, that unusual combination of naturalism (which IMO many high end speakers lack) and economy will go as well.
        
        Magnepan future - magiccarpetride 11:06:22 01/21/11 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 16:53:50
        
        "But none of these companies occupy quite the same niche as Magnepan. HP, in describing the 20.1 in his 2011 Editor's Choice list, wrote, "It is one of the rare high-end components that comes close to suggesting the sound of music itself." I fear that if Magnepan disappears or as not infrequently happens with these companies gets sold, that unusual combination of naturalism (which IMO many high end speakers lack) and economy will go as well."
        
        That is exactly what I'm afraid of. My plan is to claw my way all the way up to 20.1, and it'll take time. I don't want to find out later on that all my plans have been vaporized because Magnepan has been sold to some Chinese company who decides to cut corners and to turn their flagship 20.1 into the pale shadow of its former self.
        
        I must admit, I'm in favor of crowdsourced technology. Look at people like Peter Gunn or Dawnrazor or Grant or all these other resident geniuses/crackpots (I mean no offence to anyone:). Little by little, we have witnessed a crowding phenomenon where all these know-hows have learnt a lot about the magic of the Magnepan technology. If push comes to shove, can't we reclaim it, and fork our way out of the mainstream business model and crowdsource an even better engineered pair of speakers? Isn't this the dawning of the Age of Amateurs?
        
        RE: Magnepan future - IEaudiodude 11:47:30 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 11:06:22
        
        PG , DR or Grant "geniuses/crackpots" I think gave the most accurate description of this place I have seen yet ! LMAO
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 11:45:02 01/21/11 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 11:06:22
        
        As far as I can tell, the record on that is decidedly mixed. There are a couple of outfits that make what are in effect modern Apogees, Graz's Apogee Acoustics and the Greek outfit, forget their name. But as far as I know they haven't been able to (or maybe wanted to) make the leap from an expensive, small quantity product to a mainstream one. And other companies with creditable technology have just disappeared like Acoustat or been transformed to the point at which they're no longer recognizable.
        
        It isn't just a matter of know-how, though that's a big part of it -- even if we were experts on planar technology, it takes a lot of experience to produce optimized designs and start production. A company is a difficult thing to bootstrap. You need somehow to finance your R&D effort, and then you have to build a reputation. Stereophile won't even review a product with fewer than five dealers. It can be done, some friends and I did it with a pro audio product, but it requires quite an investment in time and energy. And even then, if the people with experience couldn't make a go of it, why would you be able to? What's the difference in your business plan? You need to bring something new to the mix.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - magiccarpetride 11:58:53 01/21/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 11:45:02
        
        "What's the difference in your business plan? You need to bring something new to the mix."
        
        Like I said, there is no business plan. What I'm talking about is more like an open source community. No business plan, just a sprawling community garden where everyone brings their individual talents to get cross-polinated in a public place.
        
        Anyone who's familiar with the open source communities (such as wikipedia, for example), knows that this model works. The community garden not only works, but has a potential to deliver superior products (as it stands today, wikipedia may be considered the 'go to' encyclopedia, something to even better Encyclopedia Britannica).
        
        The 'something new to the mix' is the Age of the Amateur (by definition, an amateur is a person who does something out of love; contrast that with a professional, who is defined as a person who does something even if he/she don't feel like doing it). Pros have agendas that we amateurs don't care too much about. Hence, we boast more freedom.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 16:12:05 01/21/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 11:58:53
        
        Well, it's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure how it could work in the case of manufacturing! Wikipedia, after all, is a matter of bits, and as such accessible to everyone with an Internet connection.
        
        Also, in all honesty, I think that if you took the sum total of our knowledge of planar speaker design and compared it to Magnepan's it would be sorely lacking. I could be wrong, after all, Jim Smith touches down here on occasion and there may be lurking planar pros. Also, we do have some of the component knowledge -- PG's woodworking skills, Grant's metalworking skills, Davey's crossover expertise, etc. But while I've been impressed in general by the expertise of today's Internet-connected audio hobbyists and have learned much myself from hobbyists on this group and on other forums, I haven't seen real professional expertise in planar design here, even among those of us who are engineers with other specialties.
        
        Seriously, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. When I'm on this group, I'm an amateur too. But I know what it is to be a pro in this field, and it involves a degree of immersion that we just don't have. You can acquire it, I have every time I've immersed myself in a new technical area, but it's not really a weekend type of thing.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - JLindborg 16:44:03 01/21/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 16:12:05
        
        Some of the knowledge here on this forum is not put out for a really good reason.
        This forum is not PURELY Magnepan forum and thus all of the tips and tricks are NOT reveled to them as they really should come up with it themselves.
        So when someones is claiming that no one on this forum has the knowledge, then that person does not know what he is talking about at all.
        The sentence should be altered to "some of us on this forum does not have the knowledge...".
        
        I am one of those who prefer Apogee speakers before Magnepan and there is several good reasons for that.
        The person behind Apogee acoustics today is also a person You can get in touch with and is frequently on the Apogee forum.
        He will and can answer questions and don't have to take a lot of flaming because of bad manufacturing or service.
        
        Surely Apogee's are not made for mid-HiFi enthusiasts either... so.
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 17:24:00 01/21/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by JLindborg on January 21, 2011 at 16:44:03
        
        I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you mean that there could be someone lurking here with all the planar knowledge in the world, sure, I agree, which is why I said is much. For all I know, Jim Winey himself is spending his retirement reading every single post. But I haven't seen any evidence of that. The only planar expert I've seen come around here is Jim Smith, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to assume that the expertise exists.
        
        As to Graz, he has his own company, and his own forum. I don't dispute his expertise, in fact, I mentioned his company only four posts back. But he's gone pro, and even then, he isn't manufacturing speakers on a large scale, as opposed to running a boutique operation.
        
        I won't say there's nothing new under the sun, but I have yet to see one innovation here that isn't, as the patent law says, obvious to someone versed in the state of the art. That's no insult to my fellow tweakers. One thing you learn as an engineer is that most of the solutions you come up with have already been thought of by someone else. So if someone does have a magic weapon unknown to Magnepan, I wish them all the luck in the world, but I'd have to see evidence of it. And even if they did, that wouldn't be the same as the knowledge needed to mass produce a practical planar that matches Magnepan's price/performance ratio.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - JLindborg 17:36:11 01/21/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 17:24:00
        
        In some way Magnepan is somewhat cornered in their own design and business policy.
        So they can't really do any major changes in their process to do things that are .... let's say better.
        It's already been explained from the message, and that the larger masses would not appreciate the upgrade in the same extent as the risen cost of changing the manufacturing process.
        And yes, they have a pair of Apogee's at hand to compare to. ;)
        The question is... have they yet dismantled it??
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 01/21/11 01/21/11 01/21/11
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 18:00:06 01/21/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by JLindborg on January 21, 2011 at 17:36:11
        
        The thing is, the original Apogee went out of business, Magnepan didn't. And at least one former Apogee employee blamed it on the excessive manufacturing cost of the Grand. The Apogees tended to be less practical speakers than Maggies -- heavier, costlier to manufacture, in some cases difficult to drive. They were also less consistent in their tuning, sometimes inconsistent even within a production run. So while they certainly had advantages and many say they were better speakers, I don't think Magnepan is eager to imitate all their features.
        
        It seems to me that Magnepan is more threatened by the sort of stuff that the BG/Wisdom crowd are doing. There hasn't been direct competition between Magnepan and those companies, since their focus is on in-wall speakers and hybrids. But what happens if some company starts manufacturing beautiful push-pull neo magnet dipoles made in China? Magnepan could duplicate the tech, sure, it isn't exactly a state secret, but how could they match the low cost of Chinese labor?
        
        Also, I don't see any Jim Winey-level innovations coming down the pike, just refinements of what's there. I'd love to see them make full use of newer technology, but it doesn't seem to be in the cards. No dipole manufacturer is. Graz, the Greek guys, Eminent, Magnepan, Quad, Martin-Logan, etc. -- they all seem stuck in the past.
        
        The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio, BTW. (nt) - esande 23:42:00 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 18:00:06
        
        RE: The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio - josh358 05:57:59 01/23/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio, BTW. (nt) posted by esande on January 21, 2011 at 23:42:00
        
        Thanks, I was too senile to remember the name and too lazy to look it up.
        
        Getting old really is a bore. If they hadn't invented search engines, I'd probably be drooling in an asylum somewhere.
  - RE: Wow - DrChaos 14:24:23 01/19/11 (1)
    "It's mostly all about the patented "intellectual property" that keeps the startup competition at bay."
    
    Many key patents have surely expired.
    
    Apogee today could probably sell without patent problems, as does Analysis Audio.
    
    There are plenty of big enough companies in Asia who could give it a try if they wanted---after all there is King Sound making electrostatics, which may be even more tricky.
    
    My conclusion is that there's actually a large amount of internal experience necessary to make magnetic planars actually be manufacturable and sound good---and it's hard to compete at the Magnepan's price point.
    - RE: Wow - magiccarpetride 14:49:47 01/19/11 (0)
      "My conclusion is that there's actually a large amount of internal experience necessary to make magnetic planars actually be manufacturable and sound good---and it's hard to compete at the Magnepan's price point."
      
      Thanks for the explanation. My only concern is the longevity of the line of products. I'm speaking as a customer and as a life long fan. What worries me in the original letter is the slightly ominous (to my ears) covert undertone that Magnepan business may be hitting rocky times, and there may or may not be the light at the end of the tunnel. I'd hate to see Maggies go the way of dodo bird.
- Different Reaction - bobcole 14:12:35 01/19/11 (13)
  I thought Wendell's comments were very reasonable. Interesting how different people can react in opposite ways. Given that MUG inmates are not the core of Magnepan customers (most customers probably just listen to them, unlike gear hobbyists who want to tweak everything)I don't see why Magnepan should pay much attention to this forum.
  
  Yes, Wendell might have chosen different words, and it is possible to quibble about them. So what? As a customer who also likes to tweak, I didn't feel like he was talking down to me, condescending, arrogant or disrespectful. I've called him a couple of times over the years and he has always been helpful, even though he's very busy so keeps conversations brief.
  
  Maybe I'm too mellow - they are just speakers. Or maybe others need to mellow out.
  - That's Just It - Peter Gunn 19:24:41 01/19/11 (12)
    I agree with you, what's more he doesn't owe us an explanation so I am not even sure what the point of this "message" was, especially when he couldn't even deliver it himself.
    
    I think the majority of us realize they are in business to stay in business, which I assume is also OK with the majority.
    
    Maybe I am wrong, and if I'm right maybe it wasn't intended, but it clearly did not express a flattering view of what he refers to as "tweaking".
    
    It's all about the music...
    - Peter, please... - bobcole 10:24:40 01/20/11 (5)
      You've said you agree with the Magnepan business model, but that you didn't like what you thought Mr. Diller meant about tweakers and tweaking. That's fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
      
      The problem comes from the tone of your response, just as you objected to what some perceived as the tone of Mr. Diller's comments. Your comments seemed very aggressive to me, and to some others. While I do understand how one might be able to read some slight to tweakers in Mr. Diller's comments, it doesn't seem that many here found it overt or intentional. More likely just loose language. Indeed, the overall tone seemed quite light to me and apparently others.
      
      In contrast, your response was overtly aggressive calling the OP letter insulting to "us", condescending, you were pissed-off, et.al. By invoking "us" in your comments, you inappropriately presumed to speak for the forum, and your closing statement used language that invited criticism about what you said. That's what made all this about you, i.e. you requested it.
      
      A problem with Internet forums is that communication styles vary. It can be tough to determine the intent of a poster; offense can be easily perceived where none was intended.
      
      I try to assume "best intentions" by all posters. Don't assume an insult is intended, unless it is really overt. You didn't seem to me to do that with Mr. Diller, as you implied reading between the lines to reveal the slight that many others here don't see. But you did respond in an overtly offensive way. Not, in my view, a good way to participate in a forum. Had you simply said "I didn't think it was respectful of tweakers, what does everyone else think" it would have been fine. But you continued on at length with pointlessly harsh comments. You perceived a slight between the lines, and responded with an overt slight. Not good form.
      
      The OP letter didn't seem to me to merit a response beyond "thanks for sharing" even if one didn't like the tone. Nor did your response. But you invited criticism of your response, and have continued to tell others that they just don't get it, as if you are smarter than those who disagree. If you can perceive slight in Mr.Diller's letter, surely you see how others could feel insulted by yours?
      
      At this point, please look in the mirror. As you criticize Mr. Diller's communication style, you should reconsider your own. Many here would appear to appreciate that.
      
      Thanks for your consideration,
      
      Bob
      - RE: Peter, please... - Peter Gunn 06:43:26 01/21/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peter, please... posted by bobcole on January 20, 2011 at 10:24:40
        
        If everyone responded to posts like you what fun would it be here? :^ )
        
        You're very right in that text doesn't convey emotion, so it's hard to gauge anyones real mood.
        
        You're also corret in that my post was.... well, I prefer animated to overty agressive. I'm a Gemini. I'm normally reserved and quiet but when I get roused I put things in big sweeping terms (with lots of little pin pricks). However had we been talking in person you'd have seen how much laughing I'd be doing. Yes, his post bothered me, but I was still more amused than angry.
        
        The main difference I see is I was responding to a post, I don't go after people on my own like many do here, and I did not get personal with him or take it places not germain to his post, like some here did to me. He made what I thought were some surprising statements so yes, I held his feet to the fire. It also wasn't based just on that note, but their behavior as a company the past 40 years towards us.
        
        If however as you say others took exception to my being offended for them or speaking for anyone, then I apologise. I look at this forum like a quasi-family, and you protect your own.
        
        I'll go look in the mirror if I have to, but you have to clean up all the broken glass. :^ )
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        LOL! Thanks Peter - bobcole 08:12:54 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peter, please... posted by Peter Gunn on January 21, 2011 at 06:43:26
        
        Let's put this thread to bed.
        
        Bob
        
        RE: Peter, please... - IEaudiodude 07:21:49 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peter, please... posted by Peter Gunn on January 21, 2011 at 06:43:26
        
        Ahhh so your a Gemini normally reserved and quiet . In that case you can't fault me for being a smart ass or aggressive towards you when you say things that I disagree with or don't like . It's not in my control its in my cosmic nature and I have no control over it. As a Scorpio I am by nature wired that way , so PG my friend that gets me off the hook for anything I might have said or might say in the future does it not ? hehehe
        
        RE: Peter, please... - Peter Gunn 14:39:00 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peter, please... posted by IEaudiodude on January 21, 2011 at 07:21:49
        
        I've never known a scorpio so I had to look up what you're like.
        
        First thing I saw - "Part of the Scorpio nature is a tendency to discard friends once they cease to be useful. They have a secretive nature with deep emotions."
        
        In other words you're a pain in the ass like me.
        
        :^ )
        
        It's all about the music...
      - Wonderful, polite, articulate post - Rod H. 15:04:35 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peter, please... posted by bobcole on January 20, 2011 at 10:24:40
        
        Expresses my feelings and my frustrations with what is happening here almost perfectly. Thank you!
    - RE: That's Just It - josh358 19:51:16 01/19/11 (5)
      I didn't get that impression. As I read it, it was more along the lines of "We've tried version of most of this stuff ourselves over the 40 years we've been doing this, though we don't try the specific mods that you guys post here, and so can't draw any conclusions about whether any specific tweak works or not. I hope you'll understand that we have to apply a higher burden of proof before we introduce something in our products than you do when you make a tweak at home, because we have to be absolutely sure that we're producing the best possible product at a given price point, so we use blind listening panels to decide which modifications make the cut. That being said, have fun -- just understand that as a business our criteria are somewhat different from a hobbyist's and, while I can't really say this, look, we do this for a living, we've already thought of and played with this stuff ourselves, plus things you can't do because you don't make the drivers."
      
      Which, IMO doesn't impugn anyone's efforts, including yours and Grant's, which as I see it aren't a hobbyist's modifications anymore but are commercial mods intended for a specialized market, like a stretched limousine.
      - RE: That's Just It - benie 01:40:04 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That's Just It posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 19:51:16
        
        I agree. I think PG may have read to much into it.
      - RE: That's Just It - Peter Gunn 20:04:07 01/19/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That's Just It posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 19:51:16
        
        But he didn't say that, he said they've done everything, including things we couldn't afford or even think of.
        
        And I want to be very clear too - This isn't about me. There are countless people on here I owe a ton to and who paved a large road I had the luxury of walking down. What's been going on here has been impressive from the get go, and it was going one before I was modding anything and frankly IMHO it deserved better than that.
        
        But maybe I read it wrong, but I don't think I did.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: That's Just It - josh358 07:08:14 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That's Just It posted by Peter Gunn on January 19, 2011 at 20:04:07
        
        I just checked, and he said "I don't recall a tweak that we haven't tried in some fashion." Which would have seemed believable to me even if I hadn't heard tales of Jim Winey's tinkering. I mean, they've had 42 years to design these things, I'd be amazed if they hadn't tried bypassing fuses and separating drivers. But Wendell said "in some fashion" and I took that to mean that he hasn't tried exactly the same components and configurations we have here.
        
        But -- was there something a bit patronizing about what he said? I think so. But I think that's because, whatever we do in our day jobs, when it comes to Maggies, most of us here are amateurs, and he's a pro. He isn't trying to be snotty, he's trying not to be, but the reality is that our suggestions must sound pretty naive to someone who does this 40 hours a week. Not necessarily *wrong*, but haven't you ever had people come up to you and earnestly make suggestions or speculations about your own profession that were naive because you already knew them?
        
        RE: That's Just It - Peter Gunn 07:25:45 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That's Just It posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 07:08:14
        
        I get that and hear it myself all the time as well. But he also has the opportunity to read and see what we've done here for years, so he should know better. Many people here have made significant contributions and you'd think he'd be aware of that. Obviously he is not, so in truth they don't care what we think or do, which is why his note came across like it did, as if he was speaking to a crowd at best buy.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: That's Just It - josh358 08:13:26 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That's Just It posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 07:25:45
        
        I had more the impression that he sees tweaking the way a car manufacturer would see a kid hot rodding one of their cars. Fun, sure, and it makes the car go faster, but it's not something they can use in the mainstream production versions. And since he's working six days a week trying to get the new models out, it's not something he has time to deal with.
- RE: Wow - ahendler 13:34:28 01/19/11 (9)
  Let's be honest. If Maggies were built fully modded with beautiful wood frames and the best possible crossover components the 1.6 or 1.7's would probably sell for $5,000 to $7,500 and the 3.6's would be $10,000 speakers and a lot of us would not own them. For $2,000 out of the box my 1.6's are probably the best sounding speaker I have ever owned. Certainly better than my Watt Puppy 3's for $12,000. Yes I have done some modifications to improve them but I have also modified my VW GTI and am glad they provide such an excellant base product. And Peter, and I am not flaming you, if Maggies were built to be the best they could be you would not have a business. I've only had my Maggies for a year now but I have never enjoyed listening to music more.
  Alan
  - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 13:59:32 01/19/11 (8)
    I agree with you 100% and that is what I've always said - Magnepan could not do what we do and stay solvent. I have no problem with that either because the fact is the vast majority of their buyers do not mod the speakers.
    
    What angers me is his attitude that we here are pissing in the wind and nothing we do is of value, but if we're having fun.... . That is an incredible attitude to what is the "core" lovers of his companies speakers and who have contributed literal volumes to the subject. It would simply be nice of him to honestly acknowledge our contributions.
    
    And if he really doesn't see those contributions.... mea culpa...
    
    It's all about the music...
    - RE: Wow - DrChaos 14:15:55 01/19/11 (7)
      This is the message I got:
      
      a) we don't specifically test any particular tweak from enthusiasts we read about.
      
      b) we don't want to
      
      c) we do try things which we come up with on our own and subject them to engineering and listening tests
      
      d) if 55 year old grandmas and our buddies at Bryston like it, then we like it.
      
      e) if certain hobbyists don't like it, tough noogies
      
      f) we're not going to change
      
      g) after you're dead, we still won't change.
      
      PG you do good work but you also have, let's say, pungent opinions. :)
      - RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 20:25:05 01/19/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by DrChaos on January 19, 2011 at 14:15:55
        
        I have pungent opinions because I can recognize a slight when I read one? (and it was a slight to this forum, not me)
        
        Explain to me then, if their opinion is as you state why would he compose a note to be posted in the place which is the very antithesis of his companies policies?
        
        That would be like McDonalds going to a Vegan board and writing them a note:
        
        a) we don't know how much fat is in our food
        
        b) we don't want to
        
        c) we do try things which we come up with on our own and subject them to tasting evaluations
        
        d) if 55 year old grandmas and our buddies at Bryston like our burgers, then we like our burgers.
        
        e) if certain vegans don't like it, tough noogies
        
        f) we're not going to change (or serve soy burgers)
        
        g) after you're dead, we still won't change.
        
        Please, explain to me what either hopes to accomplish. I didn't say he was wrong, I just don't see the point of it.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: Wow - DrChaos 22:33:16 01/19/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by Peter Gunn on January 19, 2011 at 20:25:05
        
        It's not exactly the antithesis, it would be more like a "gourmet cooking" interest group who made "Big Mac a la Toscana" burgers.
        
        What does he hope to accomplish? To explain where he's coming from and why they are never going to go down the "tweak" road.
        
        RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 07:33:07 01/20/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by DrChaos on January 19, 2011 at 22:33:16
        
        OK, it is true that there are people here who have done questionable, even clearly wrong headed things to their speakers, at least IMHO.
        
        But the forum as a whole, and what it has accomplished as a whole, is rather impressive.
        
        I was already aware they weren't going down this road as I think most here also were. He didn't need to tell us, but if he felt he had to perhaps it could have been done less rudely, that was my only point.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        I'm one of them (...people here who have done...) - wazoo 18:30:42 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 07:33:07
        
        "He's claiming the balance is skewed on my XO when what he didn't tell you is he raised his speakers a few feet off the ground, (against my recomendations) he installed subs under them (also something I didn't agree with) and he did nothing to isolate the XO components. Those are just a few of the many differences I did not approve of that he failed to mention, but my XO is unbalanced?"
        
        The rub is that the only questionable and clearly wrongheaded thing I did to my MMGs was install your XO - a mistake I eventually corrected. The rest of that drivel above is just more proof of your unchecked ego - and outright lies. A foot and a half does not equate to a few feet - okay, that's just an exaggeration. Yeah, I put subs under them - the best damn part of the whole deal. It wasn't your project to guide (it was a design I cooked up before anyone knew about your frames), but yet you act as though it were. You claim that I did nothing to isolate the XO components - well, that is an absolute lie. The components are bonded to a board which rests on an isolation pad and there is dynamat further damping the capacitors and wires. I also took extreme measures to isolate the MMGs from the subs beneath them - by way of no physical contact and more damping material.
        
        That's just one more of the many cases of your displaying zero tolerance for other's opinions and zero respect for other's modifications. Like I said, the only person here who has the right ideas is you, but now you're going to pay a compliment to the entire community - speaking for myself, don't bother. I don't give a crap what you think of me or what I did. I don't give a crap what you call me either (a troll in the post from which the above is an excerpt).
        
        Finally, I wasn't claiming that the balance of your XO is skewed. I was stating a fact. That isn't a value judgment. It is a measurable truth. Magnepan knew what they were doing when they designed the hump in the electrical response of their XO - they were constructing an acoustically flat XO. Eliminate that hump and you have an acoustically skewed balance. We hear the acoustical response, not the electrical. I don't expect you to accept any of this. I expect you to believe that you are profoundly smarter than the engineers at Magnepan.
        
        How in the hell can you complain about anything a representative of Magnepan may say about you (and despite your protestations, this is about you (isn't everything?)) when you display such contempt for their engineering on your website? I almost choked when I read - hey, where did that crap go? Oh well, there was something on your website about how sorry you were for anyone who bought a pair of 1.7s, but that they needn't worry because you could fix them. Since that text is gone now, you can freely deny that it ever existed, but I know what I read.
        
        Okay, I'll climb back under my rock now, or is it a tree stump? I'll just go wherever it is that a troll lives.
        
        "Information is not knowledge.
        Knowledge is not wisdom.
        Wisdom is not truth.
        Truth is not beauty.
        Beauty is not love.
        Love is not music.
        Music is THE BEST." FZ
        
        RE: I'm one of them (...people here who have done...) - Dawnrazor 04:35:26 01/25/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I'm one of them (...people here who have done...) posted by wazoo on January 20, 2011 at 18:30:42
        
        I think this is the page you are citing???
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag1.7.html (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Wow - Rod H. 10:07:38 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by Peter Gunn on January 20, 2011 at 07:33:07
        
        But you must remember that everyone isn't as tactful, polite, and open minded as you.
        
        RE: Wow - Peter Gunn 07:04:45 01/21/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by Rod H. on January 20, 2011 at 10:07:38
        
        The difference Rod is I admit it, and I don't make it my lifes work.
        
        Two of my "detractors" in this thread attack, insult and demean people on a constant basis and nobody EVER holds them accountable, because they're like rabid muslims, you don't want to piss them off because you'll be next.
        
        So they get a pass. However people are free to attack me because while I may hammer them in reply essentially my feeling is "Yeah, whatever" and I won't make it my lifes mission to go after every post they write from here to eternity, like the buck toothed hillbilly does. (by the way buck tooth, I haven't read a single one of your posts here and don't plan to)
        
        The sad part about this (and any) online board is there are too many people without lives who just live to be important, and who live to keep any perceived "foe" down, and who (probably literally) salivate as they check the board EVERY day waiting for those people to make the slightest slip so they can start their barrage.
        
        Is that me? Or you? No, it isn't, and that's the difference.
        
        As far as wendell, IMHO his note was insulting. If you didn't think so, I'm OK with that. If he thought my reply was then maybe if he actually spoke here we could talk, sort it out and get it to a warm, happy place. But then again he won't reply (or even post himself) and he refused to reply in the past so maybe, just maybe Rod, he is looking down on us.
        
        In any event this is really a very minor fart in the wind.
        
        It's all about the music...
Thanks to you and Wendell, good read. NT - grantv 12:18:18 01/19/11 (0)
RE: why can't they talk on this forum,,???? - heavywindlover 11:18:21 01/19/11 (27)
would have been nice to hear it direct from Magnepan opening dialog with forum members,, do they ever do this,,????

I have managed several large companies in my past years and I would never "have or ask" someone else to deliver my messages or help me spread the word,,

sigh :( how the world is changing,,

Derry
common sense is not common

Illegitimi non carborundum
- the forum police - mbnx01 07:56:09 01/20/11 (0)
  Beat him up and he left.
  
  "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
  -Greg House
- He (Mr. Diller) did... - MaggiesAndCats 12:41:11 01/19/11 (2)
  back in 2009. A bunch of folks here jumped his sh*t. Why come back for more of that from a bunch of modders who already own your product? I would say the vast majority of people who post here are Maggie fans and would recommend them to friends as they are out of the box. Some are fanatics at getting the absolute best out of their speakers, but they are still using Maggie products. I would buy Maggies again even knowing they have some unquantified QC issues. I have a pair of MGIII's that I had rebuilt at the factory a couple of years ago. I would love to take the socks off and see what kind of quality went into the rebuild, but they sound so good I'm not going to look...
  
  Regards,
  
  Steve
  - exactly - wazoo 18:04:05 01/19/11 (1)
    I was embarrassesd at how Wendell was treated here - can't blame him at all for maintaining his distance.
    
    "Information is not knowledge.
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    Wisdom is not truth.
    Truth is not beauty.
    Beauty is not love.
    Love is not music.
    Music is THE BEST." FZ
    - Me too (nt) - Joe Schmo 07:32:15 01/20/11 (0)
      -Joe
      
      They're not that big!
- Why can't they talk on this forum, my thoughts... - DavidJames 12:21:03 01/19/11 (22)
  I think this is a very interesting question. I often wonder if I were in the business of making audio gear, would I actively participate in forums like this. I lean towards no. On the one hand, I think there would be value, sometimes great value, in discussing "my" product. On the other hand, I find the signal to noise to outright outrageous stuff I read in this forum (and many other audio forums) so bad that I suspect it would be to easy to get sucked into the latter obliterating any value.
  
  I think getting nailed once for not participating is better then getting nailed over and over again for not implementing any of the multitude of "mods" or "tweaks" or special causes (RFI?)
  - I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - andyr 14:51:13 01/19/11 (21)
    They are a company which has been successful for 40 years, and are still going strong.
    
    The vast majority of their customer base never go to the Linn website but those who are "into" the LP12 (and their other products) and like finding out about people's opinions of upgrades - and tweaks - do (go there).
    
    Linn contribute to the discussions. As an example, there was a lot of "noise" when the Keel subchassis was delivered a couple of years ago and some useful & informative comments came from Linn.
    
    They also are happy to have after-market modders contribute. For instance, there is a guy who has started to produce another subchassis. It is considerably less than the price of the Keel so doesn't really "compete" with it; those with lots of money will buy the Keel and those who would like to get a similar benefit but don't have fat wallets (like me! :-)) ), will buy the alternative. There is also a Yankee who makes LP12 plinths - which compete directly with Linn plinths. These are stock standard in terms of dimensions but are made from beautiful and exotic woods ... and in fact, are sometimes more expensive than Linn plinths. (But then Linn doesn't use those particular woods. :-)) )
    
    What is also interesting about the Linn site is that they do not put up any barriers to Linn dealers selling both the genuine Linn products and 3rd party products.
    
    Regards,
    
    Andy
    - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Webnick 15:28:48 01/19/11 (11)
      Andy, I think you know that there are *many* other vendors besides Linn that participate in online blogs/forums with their customers. You can't help but notice several different owners who actively enjoy Q&A sessions on the Asylum (e.g., Ayre's Charles Hansen, Modright's Dan Wright, etc.). In fact, some vendors even maintain their own online blogs (e.g., Modright, PS Audio, etc.).
      
      You'd think that Magnepan would acknowledge the financial potential of working with its most interested customers in developing its products. Who knows, though, perhaps Jim and Wendell read MUG posts daily and have been secretly working on future Frankenpan tweaks!
      Illegitimus non carborundum.
      - Hehe ... - andyr 16:26:56 01/19/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Webnick on January 19, 2011 at 15:28:48
        
        There are no future Frankenpan tweaks! :-)) (Well, apart from playing with different XO slopes, that is.)
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
      - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 16:02:30 01/19/11 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Webnick on January 19, 2011 at 15:28:48
        
        Have you ever had people line up outside your office to tell you how you should design something that you know far better than they do how to design, because it's your job? People think they're being helpful, want to join in, but the truth you can't mention is that if they knew more than you about how to do your job, they would be sitting in your office instead of you. So give Magnepan some credit! Wendell says, "I don't recall a tweak that we haven't tried in some fashion," and I believe him, since they've been designing and building these speakers for more than 35 years now. And unlike us, they don't have the luxury of just "trying something." If they introduce a new product that doesn't sell, they risk their jobs.
        
        That isn't to say that tweaks can't be useful, having done some myself I can vouch that they can. But when we make those tweaks for ourselves, we don't have to worry about cost and sales or even success, since if something doesn't work out, all we've lost is a weekend's work. And as Wendell points out, they have options we don't. They can change the size of the diaphragms, used different tensions and diaphragm and damping materials, tune the drivers differently, use different magnets. And, conversely, we have some options that they don't, options that could add too much to the cost of their product or appeal to too few prospective buyers.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - DavidJames 07:59:31 01/20/11 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 16:02:30
        
        Regarding tweaks - I wonder how many have two sets of speakers and the environment to compare the before and after, in a "blind" manner?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 08:19:59 01/20/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by DavidJames on January 20, 2011 at 07:59:31
        
        I've known audiophiles to do blind comparisons. It isn't easy to do with speakers, though, since they're difficult to hide and their sound is so dependent on their position in the room -- particularly planars. We've all switched between speakers at a dealers, and while you can tell a lot from that comparison, you never really know for sure until you get them home and set them up in your living room. I think that's one of the reasons that planars suffer at dealers, those of us who have owned them know how much their performance can be boosted with optimal placement, but at a dealers they rarely get that kind of attention.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 10:39:00 01/20/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 08:19:59
        
        "I think that's one of the reasons that planars suffer at dealers, those of us who have owned them know how much their performance can be boosted with optimal placement, but at a dealers they rarely get that kind of attention."
        
        Yeah, the dealer rep who was demoing 1.7s to me complained bitterly how they haven't been placed properly in the demo room. Wtf? Why doesn't he do it, then?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 10:47:28 01/20/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 10:39:00
        
        Maybe he wasn't given that option? One of the problems dealers have is that they have no way to demonstrate most of their speakers in optimal locations. They can take a few fancy products and give them entire rooms, but most have to sit on the shelf, literally or figuratively. Which does more harm to dipoles than to boxes. Another problem is that the somewhat funereal acoustics of these places are generally optimized for omnis. Dipoles are better in a more "normal" acoustic, indeed, it seems to me that they're ability to sound good without specialized room treatment is one of their positive points: if it has sufficient breathing space, a dipole will image beautifully in a regular living room.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 11:03:06 01/20/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 10:47:28
        
        "Maybe he wasn't given that option? One of the problems dealers have is that they have no way to demonstrate most of their speakers in optimal locations. They can take a few fancy products and give them entire rooms, but most have to sit on the shelf, literally or figuratively. Which does more harm to dipoles than to boxes. Another problem is that the somewhat funereal acoustics of these places are generally optimized for omnis. Dipoles are better in a more "normal" acoustic, indeed, it seems to me that they're ability to sound good without specialized room treatment is one of their positive points: if it has sufficient breathing space, a dipole will image beautifully in a regular living room."
        
        That's the thing that stumped me -- he took me to the room dedicated to Maggies! 1.7s were all set for demoing, and he had a pair of 3.6s standing in the corner. This was the arrangement they had for months in their store. And yet, he was bitching how poorly are 1.7s placed in THEIR OWN DEDICATED SHOWROOM!
        
        My immediate thought was what's stopping him, the salesman, from placing them properly? I mean, they are already standing there, the lone speakers to be showcased.
        
        I hear you about the funeral-like showroom settings. That arrangement is indeed not optimal for Maggies. But again, we're talking about complete lack of enthusiasm on behalf of the salesforce to try and move those babies. they all seemed positively annoyed by being somehow 'tricked' into carrying Maggies on the floor.
        
        Go figure!
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 11:16:30 01/20/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:03:06
        
        Knowing salesman, they were probably thinking about how much they'd be making if you were buying a pair of Wilsons. I guess you can't blame them, since their income depends on commissions, and it takes just as much effort to demo an inexpensive item as a costly one.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 11:21:19 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 11:16:30
        
        "Knowing salesman, they were probably thinking about how much they'd be making if you were buying a pair of Wilsons. I guess you can't blame them, since their income depends on commissions, and it takes just as much effort to demo an inexpensive item as a costly one."
        
        I didn't get the impression that I was stealing him away from the customers lining up to buy Wilsons, or anything else for that matter. The store was spookily empty, I was the only customer in there, and I did stay for a substantial length of time.
        
        Now, wouldn't you think that making a sale, even at a low commission, is better than making no sale that day?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 15:05:30 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:21:19
        
        Strange, isn't it? I wonder that whenever a salesman pulls that "Why are you interrupting my day" bit. Some kind of negative psychology sales technique, perhaps? Or perhaps just that snobby doorman attitude that some high end audio stores are known for?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - ahendler 13:20:28 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 11:21:19
        
        My Maggie dealer in Tampa, Florida played 1.6's and 1.7's for me moving them in and out of the room and set them up really good. They both sounded excellent and I bought the 1.6's on the spot. The dealer was most accomodating
        Alan
    - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 15:03:35 01/19/11 (8)
      "What is also interesting about the Linn site is that they do not put up any barriers to Linn dealers selling both the genuine Linn products and 3rd party products."
      
      Do you think that strategy contributes to their longevity?
      
      Another thing that worries me about Magnepan is the apparent lack of enthusiasm that I'm getting from the Maggies dealers. they just don't seem interested even in keeping the Magnepan inventory, let alone showcasing it properly. I think Magnepan must work on rethinking their sales strategy, if they are to stay in business.
      - RE: Maggie dealers ... - andyr 16:34:19 01/19/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 19, 2011 at 15:03:35
        
        Yes, it is a strange situation in Oz. 20 years ago, when I bought my IIIas, hifi dealers certainly carried Maggies - in fact, I bought a dealer's personal pair when he swapped over to being an Apogee dealer. Now, however, I believe there's basically only the Oz Maggie importer (located an hour's drive N of Sydney) who sells them across the country, as well as in his retail shop. There is a dealer in Canberra who sells Maggies but I'm not aware of any dealer in Melbourne or Perth.
        As Josh posted, maybe Maggies offer so much bang for their buck - even though prices in Oz are twice your price - that there's simply not sufficient profit incentive for dealers?
        Regards,
        Andy
        
        Edits: 01/19/11
      - RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 16:04:55 01/19/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 19, 2011 at 15:03:35
        
        My sense -- I could be wrong on this -- is that Maggies offer too much bang for the buck, and, as a result, not nearly enough profit.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - magiccarpetride 10:47:04 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 16:04:55
        
        "My sense -- I could be wrong on this -- is that Maggies offer too much bang for the buck, and, as a result, not nearly enough profit."
        
        Absolutely true. Given the situation, what they need to do is scale up. That'll ensure healthier profit margins for them.
        
        Look at Logitech, for example => their digital streaming device, Squeezebox Touch, offers insane amount of bang for the buck, so much so that you can't believe how's it possible for them to make profit by charging only $300 per unit? But they do it by scaling up. Maggies could ostensibly play the same game. I'm telling you, anyone in my world who's heard them pretty much wants them. Isn't that a no brainer sell?
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 15:08:27 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by magiccarpetride on January 20, 2011 at 10:47:04
        
        I know that they've said they don't want to sell to the big box stores. But with specialty audio dealers on the way out, I don't know that they'll have a choice in that. The thing is, if they don't demo well at specialty stores, how will the demo at Best Buy? I can just see them pushed up against the wall, hooked up to a home theater receiver, and demoed by a kid who's thinking about his next joint break.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Dawnrazor 22:29:56 01/19/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 16:04:55
        
        Hey Josh,
        
        I think you are right. Most speakers are say 50 points to a dealer and from what I know, mags are alot lower. I hate to say it, but you cant blame a dealer if that is true.
        
        Though it do find it interesting that the supposed #1 mag dealer (stereo unlimited) offers a tweak with a lineam tweet for the mags they sell...
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 07:27:52 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Dawnrazor on January 19, 2011 at 22:29:56
        
        I didn't know about that Lineaeum tweak. Interesting.
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - Dawnrazor 09:11:38 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 07:27:52
        
        Hey Josh,
        
        See the thread below.
        
        It seems that it is more than just the tweeter as there is some rewiring involved.
        
        I kind of find it funny that the #1 dealer for mags mods them...in light of wendell's post that cracks me up.
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=mug&n=122833&hi (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... - josh358 10:41:28 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think a useful comparison can be made to Linn ... posted by Dawnrazor on January 20, 2011 at 09:11:38
        
        I think it comes down to the price point thing. Sure, Magnepan could make 3.x's sound better, but then they'd no longer be $5000 speakers! So the trick for them is to find ways to make the speakers sound better within their price points.
How to screw up blind tests. - Al Sekela 10:13:31 01/19/11 (1)
In wine competitions: take a small panel of local experts and present them with > 1000 samples to taste over a few days. This actually happens every year for the Sonoma County Harvest Fair Wine Competition, and the results are uniformly bizarre. Only seriously flawed wines with some peculiar flavor element that punches through the alcohol haze get the medals.

In speaker modifications: ignore the issues associated with RF noise and utilize ARC electronics.
- LOL nt - Webnick 10:16:53 01/19/11 (0)
  .
  Illegitimus non carborundum.
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - catfish 10:11:34 01/19/11 (3)
I don't know whether I am being too literal or not but Wendell's non-definition of a quasi-ribbon (anything that isn't a true ribbon is a quasi-ribbon)still has me wondering whether or not the base panel is a similar quasi-ribbon to the mid range panel. The rest of his message is certainly reasonable.

Mick
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - DrChaos 10:17:37 01/19/11 (2)
  Quoth Wendell: "The 3.7 bass and midrange are quasi ribbon---like the 1.7. The tweeter is a true ribbon."
  - RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - catfish 10:56:30 01/19/11 (1)
    Yes, but he defined quasi-ribbon as any panel that was not a true-ribbon which would imply that my 3.6Rs base panels are quasi-ribbon also, thus the distinction disappears. I started by saying I wasn't sure if I was being too literal and perhaps I am, but it seems to me that to this audience technical details of changes in models should be more clearly stated.
    
    Mick
    - RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - DrChaos 11:03:52 01/19/11 (0)
      Since they never described the round-wire planar as being "ribbon" anything (as it isn't), the reasonable conclusion is that "foil ribbon conductor on a substrate" is a quasi-ribbon and "foil ribbon conductor on nothing" is a ribbon, and a "wire on a substrate" is a wire on a substrate.
      
      By this measure, the old Apogees were quasi-ribbon bass & true ribbon treble.
      
      In practical terms I think they changed some production machines/procedures to make full-panel foil, and that's what they'll be using for everything instead of round wire.
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - djcxxx 09:43:49 01/19/11 (0)
When I purchase a product and it is defective, and I cannot get resolution from the manufacturer, I move on and don't return. Over the years I have found that if my bad experience is not isolated the company will either fix the problem(s) or cease to exist. I do not doubt for one moment that Magnepan has QC lapses and that some customers may not be satisified and never return. I also know that the typical internet grievance is almost always just one side of the story with selective provision of details. It is considered axiomatic that you cannot fool all of the people all of the time and 40 years is a long time to be successfully fooling people. Then again, who knows, my 3.7s may turn out to be total POS right out of the box. There's a first time for everything.
Ho hum - Webnick 09:24:45 01/19/11 (16)
What to take from this message? Nice of Wendell to drop by via a surrogate with a prepared statement, but his statement seems more like a pep rally speech than anything of which this forum is interested (i.e., he's 'preaching to the choir.'). "Frugal" may be "cool" but I don't see how and/or why either Wendell or Jim couldn't take the time and how/or why Magnepan doesn't possess the resources to *really* address this forum, a forum which is probably the number one fan forum of Magnepan in the world!
Illegitimus non carborundum.
- Maybe initially seems like a good idea. - grantv 12:16:16 01/19/11 (0)
  But considered from their point of view...
  This site is mostly filled with people who modify their brand. "I'm taking what your successful company has done for 20+ years and changing it for the better." Even if they agreed that money aside, any and all mods were better, it wouldn't be prudent to agree to this on the Internet. And if they did, what next; which aftermarket capacitor is better Wendell? Most of us here know there are improvements that can be made to our Maggie's. Just like "X" brand car sites know their cars can be improved upon. Manufacturers have a budget and target buyers (we're the minority don't forget; the majority of Magnepan buyers are happy with them out of the box regardless if they know about possible modifications or not). So what are they going to do here if they're not answering questions about mods? Or QC?
  Add to that the amount of people here who regularly cut down Magnepan.... not exactly laying out the red carpet for Wendell.
  One benefit would be direct feedback, but I'm sure they're reading here frequently, so they get that anyway. Add dealer feedback, phone calls, etc and I think they know what their market wants and needs.
  I think they're doing just fine as is. And although it may seem odd to channel this message through somebody, it keeps them separated from us which is probably best from their business perspective.
  Just my humble opinion.
- The answer is quite simple... - mdl 11:49:26 01/19/11 (1)
  The answer is quite simple... there are people who hang out in forums, and people who get things done (said semi tongue in cheek :-).
  
  A lot of the online world is a colossal waste of time. From a manufacturers perspective, it is a hard world to participate in. Manners go out the window. Correctness often loses to bluster. It is simply not a good use of time. Besides, the mystery of what Magnepan is up to gives this forum countless hours of diversion! :-)
  - RE: The answer is quite simple... - gtb75 12:04:06 01/19/11 (0)
    That is exactly the feedback I got from him when we talked... He just doesn't have the time to "troll" the forums like us enthusiasts do - and I get that. I'm a member of a few audio forms, so I volunteered to post this where I had an account. That being said, I spend most of my time reading these forums rather than posting... Everything that I've ever needed to know has already been asked several times by other members, so why waste everybody's time by posting the same question over again. Besides, I just don't see the point of getting involved in heated discussions (about anything) using a vehicle such as an internet forum. Everybody has opinions, but I have no desire to get in to flame wars - there's just no point.
    
    But I digress... After talking to him, Wendell is well aware that we exist (hence this message). I just don't think that he personally has the bandwidth to follow the banter on all of the various forums. Needless to say, he's really busy at the moment, so I volunteered to do this as a favor for him. I'm a thrilled customer who came from Thiel 3.6's before I got my MG 3.6's. I can't wait to hear what 3.7's sound like in person!
- I agree, and worse - Peter Gunn 11:48:40 01/19/11 (12)
  "I don't want the responsibility of having to actually talk to you, but this is what I have to say to you...."
  
  So bizarre on so many levels...
  
  On a side note this QR bass wiring is BAD news. It can't do bass well, and that's a fact. This is certainly going to put a premium on the older used 3's. Buy em now while you can.... or don't sell your sub, you're gonna need it.
  
  It's all about the music...
  - Funny, you using the word "responsible" - The Heretic 23:23:04 01/21/11 (0)
    Funny how you stepped forward and took responsibility for the hack job you did on Varkdriver's 3.6s.
  - RE: I agree, and worse - benie 01:26:43 01/20/11 (0)
    "On a side note this QR bass wiring is BAD news. It can't do bass well, and that's a fact."
    
    Have you heard them?
  - RE: I agree, and worse - DrChaos 12:00:00 01/19/11 (9)
    "On a side note this QR bass wiring is BAD news. It can't do bass well, and that's a fact."
    
    That's something I wondered. With the conventional wire, some of the vertical runs in a bass section are doubled, presumably doubling the force in that location. They have freedom to choose which ones to double in combination with the mechanical properties.
    
    I don't see any obvious way to accomplish the same thing with foil.
    - RE: I agree, and worse - josh358 16:24:18 01/19/11 (0)
      If you want to reduce the impedance, you can just split the run in two and parallel the segments, and if you want to increase it, all you have to do is use a thinner conductor. And if the objective is to increase thermal dissipation or better control the diaphragm, foil already does that for ou. So I'm not sure it's an issue. I believe though that in small quasi ribbon drivers where it is important to increase the impedance while maintaining coverage and reasonable strength they run multiple traces per magnet with the traces arranged next to one another. At least, that's my recollection of what the inside of the BG Neo drivers looks like.
    - RE: I agree, and worse - Peter Gunn 12:46:04 01/19/11 (7)
      It could be done with the QR foil but it would require much stronger and MUCH costlier magnets. And since he just said they are in a life and death struggle to sell their product as is and that they consider "tweaking" a dangerous extreme that threatens the existance of the company it's not gonna happen.
      
      It's all about the music...
      - RE: I agree, and worse - josh358 16:17:49 01/19/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by Peter Gunn on January 19, 2011 at 12:46:04
        
        I think I've read that neodynium magnets cost about 50% more. But I gather from something Wendell said somewhere that the problem is that they'd have to use mechanical magnet placement, which has to be costly for a company with small production runs of multiple products. There could also be considerations of physical strength, they might have to increase the strength of the whole pole assembly. And there are reliability questions as well, if neodynium magnets lose their coating they dissolve, this is a problem with the old Monsoons that use the Eminent drivers, the plating starts to come off the magnets and the diaphragms hit it and they buzz as if they were delaminating.
        
        Just read that the big new push-pull module from the BG people, which uses neodynium magnets and achieves 100 dB sensitivity (!) as a result, requires a 4-ton press for assembly.
        
        These things always look easier on paper . . .
        
        RE: I agree, and worse - grantv 07:26:03 01/20/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by josh358 on January 19, 2011 at 16:17:49
        
        In manufacturing a 4 ton press is very small. You know the little "bottle jacks" for $15 at your local Princess Auto, they usually run 10 tons minimum. Our break press here at my day job is 275 tons. Our punch press is 400 tons IIRC. So a 4 ton press to install magnets doesn't seem all that crazy to me.
        
        RE: I agree, and worse - josh358 08:23:49 01/20/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by grantv on January 20, 2011 at 07:26:03
        
        What I can't figure out is why they need a press at all. Shouldn't all the forces in a push-pull planar magnet assembly be attractive? Or is the press used to insure that the two halves don't slam together, meaning that the press is working as a pull, so to speak?
        
        Guessing only.... - grantv 08:40:52 01/20/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by josh358 on January 20, 2011 at 08:23:49
        
        I'd imagine the placement for the magnets is CNC cut into their panel. It's likely a "light press-fit" (perhaps with some epoxy to aid in holding them in place) hence the need for a press of some sort.
        
        RE: Guessing only.... - josh358 10:18:50 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Guessing only.... posted by grantv on January 20, 2011 at 08:40:52
        
        Well, I'm definitely getting senile, I remembered it as a four-ton press but in fact it's 12:
        
        "As both Wisdom Series driver types incorporate a push-pull magnetic motor system, the brute force necessary to assemble a driver with opposing magnetic motors and pre-energized multiple magnets is indeed substantial � a twelve ton press is required."
        
        http://www.wisdomaudio.com/pdfs/Wisdom-LS3_LS4-Nov-23-2010-PR-FINAL.pdf
        
        Some interesting info in that press release, including the fact that they use the neodynium magnets only in the high frequency section.
        
        Here's a picture of one of the modules:
        
        http://www.stereophile.com/content/planar-wisdom
      - RE: I agree, and worse - DrChaos 13:40:57 01/19/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by Peter Gunn on January 19, 2011 at 12:46:04
        
        Yeah, the price of neodymium magnets are going up like, oh a Chinese rocket?
        
        Apparently there's 1kg of neodymium in each Prius, and Toyota is Not Happy about the situation.
        
        RE: I agree, and worse - Satie 09:01:45 01/20/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I agree, and worse posted by DrChaos on January 19, 2011 at 13:40:57
        
        Now Neodymium is doing great. My metals broker wanted to get me into neodymium ingot last year, but the vault operator didn't let him store it. But I told him that the standard precursor to metal would probably have a ready market. So he got into Neodymium oxide and is making a mint. The Chinese export restrictions are making for shortages. I did not take a stake in the trade, but held on to my irridium, which is used to process lithium for gadget batteries.
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - heavywindlover 08:59:22 01/19/11 (0)
thanks for the info about the new maggies and how they compared and were tested against their predecessors,, will have to make a drive to check the new models out as my closest dealer is a couple hundred miles away,,

I have owned many sets of speakers over my 50 years of audio listening and have to say my current 1.6QRs with Peter Gunn XOs and wiring are the best I have owned and some of the best I have ever listened to,,

often wonder why Magenapan does not increase their dealers to more major cities,,

Derry
common sense is not common

Illegitimi non carborundum
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - djcxxx 08:48:52 01/19/11 (0)
I just ordered the 3.7s to replace my 3.6s. These will be my fourth set since 1977 (MG-1, 2.5R, 3.6R). Mr. Diller's letter makes a lot of sense to me from both his prospective as a manufacturer and mine as audiophile who does not tweak or modify. Perhaps as something of an apology he is telling this community that it's okay for individuals to tweak and mod, but it's not something they as a manufacturer can afford to spend time and money on without netting results discernable to more than one SD above the mean of owners. No company is perfect but Magnepan has done a pretty good job over the last 40+ years providing high end sound at modest prices in a hobby where today $15,000 speakers often considered mid level.
RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - TitaniumTroy 08:34:18 01/19/11 (1)
Thanks gtb75 and Wendell, well it is interesting to hear the Magnepan point of view. I would be curious to read what the Golden Ear crowd had to
say?

3.6 owner
- RE: A message from Wendell at Magnepan - Norman M 07:31:38 01/20/11 (0)
  The most interesting thing I learned is that WD has taken Galina, a 55 year old Russian immigrant, with 2 children as his wife. No wonder he has to go on working rather than have retired with Social Security/Magnepan Pensions?
A message to Wendell at Magnepan - RickeyM 08:28:44 01/19/11 (0)
Keep on doin' whatcha doin'.
Aside from the QC that can be tightened up a bit. I don't mind doing the mods on my speakers. Speakers that perform as well as my "Quasi-Gunned", I couldn't afford if they were made that way, even used. Can't wait until I'm done with my MG2.5's ;^)

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