• RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 20:50:35 09/09/10 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 09, 2010 at 11:16:11

  Hi Satie,
  Quick Update.
  Yes the Ittok VTF dial was way off. I checked with an Ortofon tracking gauge. I was using the Denon at about 1g not 1.2g. That's why there was obvious mistracking!!. With it at 1.2g I can't hardly ever hear any, at 1.25g none really at all. Hmmm the Troika must have been far out when I used it with this arm too, - maybe I was using about 1.4g when I should have been on 1.6g. So thats a relief, - hopefully you will find things fine on most discs with the right VTF. the VTA is quite sensitive on both the Ittok and Troika in my experience. Good job the Technics has VTA on the fly!
  I tried the 304 with the Camrbdirge Audio 640P phono stage on its MC setting. This has 100 ohms fixed loading. The 304 really does sound fantastic with this phono stage, - better than it does with the Quad MC stage actually, - the opposite is true with the Troika. I tried "the head" and the T2 with the MM input of the 640P and in my opinion it did not sound as good as the straight MC stage of the 640P. Mind you this was just with the 304, - not tried the Troika with the head going through this.
  I don't think transformers match that well with Solid state MM stages, - have experienced this before. And I also tried the transformers on my Yaqin MS-12B valve phono stages and the sound is much better in all regards. But the Yaqin is a bit bloated, - that's just the way it sounds. Boy I wish I had still had the Audio Innovations P2 valve phono stage now I have the "head" and also wish I still had the Art Audio Vinyl valve phono stage I had for a short time (though the P2 was considerably better in my opinion, - really should never have sold that).
  
  So yeah I think it would good to send you the 640P too to try and compare, - its surprisingly good on the MC input (and is very good with the Denon) and I've read that the MM inputs is supposed to be even better, but I guess not using a transformer and MC cartridge. I have not tried it with a MM cartridge.
  The only hitch with sending you this is the DC adapter with it is for 230V only it seems. Do you have a 110V 12V DC adapter with the standard sort of connectors?, - I am not sure exactly what size the power little input jack is on the 640P, - the second biggest standard DC type socket I think. If you don;t have anything I might be able to find something at Maplin.
  
  At least the pretty noticeable mistracking mystery I had was is solved now.
  The other Technics headshell came today, but I think it must have belonged to a DJ as it was loose at the connector part! I've had to araldite it up, - which seems to have fixed it, - does not move anymore, - . will give it longer to dry and try it with the Denon on Sunday. I've heard these Technics headshells are not bad but others are better. People seem to recommend the Sumiko one which has azimuth adjustment too.
  Do you reckon if I send you the cartridges already mounted/aligned in the Technics Headshells you'll use them like that or will you want to fit the cartridges in better sounding headshells? If the Latter I might as well send you the cartridges in their original cases.
  All the best,
  Colin
  

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• RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 14:48:30 09/09/10 (25)
  In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 09, 2010 at 11:16:11

  Hi Satie,
  It looks like you truly are a classical Junkie, - with such large dynamic swings in classical music it might possibly be difficult to get an MC to work well for you, or it might annoyingly limit your choice of albums to ones that don't have such a large dynamic range.....
  I am a Church Organ music lover (and used to play myself). This material is a real nightmare to reproduce on vinyl because of the dynamics and the very low frequencies. I would agree too, - most of the Organ LPs I have are very difficult to listen to due to mistracking distortion.
  I've heard people say before that CD was the best thing to happen for recorded Organ music and I would tend to agree! The ultimate tone of the sound on CD might not be as good as vinyl but crucially you can hear the music without any added distortion! I do quite like CD in some ways for its clean reproduction of classical music in general and tend to avoid most classical on LP because of tracking issues because of the dynamic range issue. Though ultimately I still prefer the tone of a classical LP if an album tracks OK. Most of my LP stuff in non classical stuff though.... mainly because of the tracking issue with classical and MCs!!
  
  So yeah see how you get on. The Denon DL304 is a pretty good tracker for an MC. Definitely better than most MCs. Its not as good tracker as the DL110 but its still pretty good. If you have a problem at the standard 1.2 gram tracking weight with dynamic material, then raising it up to around 1.3g should improve things a lot. Do you have the hifi news test LP? Or something similar? (I guess so) Like I say I am not sure how good this example of the DL304 I have is in terms of wear but one factor is that Ittok I am using it one might have a slightly dodgy tracking force dial, so I am not totally sure the VTF is right, - will have to double check with a VTF gauge. Not done that yet!
  
  As for TDP, it seems he actually set up EAR in 1977 according to this info I checked out. And it seems its likely he was reasonably well known as a good designer by the early eighties at least. Though I guess nothing like as well known as his post 834P days though.
  
  http://www.ear-yoshino.com/tim_bio.html
  http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/1107parav/
  http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/990paravicini/
  
  In the last Stereophile article, - "the head" step up is mentioned in the second paragraph so although that was written in 1990 is does sort of confirm that it was probably a well regarded design at the time at least. Like I say though I am not sure how it would stack up against a much more recent design like the TX103. Its seems TDP did do quite a lot of consultancy work, and I know the Musicaly Fidelty A1 integrated SS amp was one of the most successful hi-fi products he designed at the time and that was obviously just on consultancy basis, - he still owned EAR at the time, but was sought out as a consultant due to his skills. It does say on the front of "the Head" that the unit was designed by TDP so I guess his name must definitely have carried some weight then too and that’s why High End Audio Devices used him as a consultant for it and the rumour I've heard is that he did actually hand wind these transformers himself. And hopefully if he had a name back then he would have done a decent job as he had a reputation to live up to , - especially as his name was going to be put on the box... I hear what you say he no doubt was not as well known to the average Audiophile back then as he is now but based on the other good work he did before this and since I think its likely he probably did a good job on "the head"
  
  I am not sure what time exactly "the head" dates from, - perhaps earlier than the late 80s?, - maybe mid 80s? Anyway its price was £350 back in 1988 which was a lot for the time. So I think its probably pretty good. Like I say I really want to do a showdown with the TX103 one day. I've seen "the head" mentioned in old reviews of high end kit as being using a step up device so it was certainly likely to be well regarded as being pretty top notch at the time at least. If the TX103 is much better I guess I will try my best to find one and sell the the head. I know Salvatore compare the TX103 to other Step up including the EAR MC3 but he obviously did not compare to a "head" as I guess he woudl have mentioned it. I do not know for sure but I am guessing it is possible that "the head" could have been a even more no compromise design than the MC3 etc. But its very hard to know for sure. At least if I compare to a Tx103 one day I will get some better idea.
  
  I do have a small Cambridge Audio 640P SS phono stage, which IS budget but its pretty highly regarded. It has very high RIAA accuracy, - to within 0.3dB I think from 20hz right up to 50KHz. The MM stage in it is regarded as being very good and the MC stage pretty good. It also has switchable subsonic filter. I can send you this to try too, - not to really use as I'm sure your valve gear will smoke it hearing its MC stage will give you an idea of possibly the frequency extension you might be missing using the transformers into a MM stage. Certainly last time I compared the MC stage of the 640P to using the T2 going into its MM stage, although the T2/MM setup had great virtues, - it was obviously not as extended at the top as the 640Ps MC stage. The 640P is very small and light, - easy to put in the package. The 0.2mV MCs are a little low output for its MC but it still works OK, - if you can crank up the gain with your preamp be fine. I've not yet tried the 640Ps MM stage with "the head", - will try that tonight most probably. Might fare a lot better on the freqneucy extension issue due to the lower ratio and hence higher loading on the head vs the T2. Obviously theses two MCs of your Garrot will no overload it, - unless maybe if you use the T2 on its high gain setting into the MM stage.
  I know you have the high end Dayton active headamp, but like I say the 640P will perhaps be interesting to use for a few comparisons and show you what a pretty good budget phono stage can do these days. I've tried other recent more expensive SS phono stages in the past few years and the 640P is one of the best soudning of the lot despite being the cheapest. The Phono stage in the Quad 99 preamp is slightly better but not by a huge margin.
  
  All the best,
  Colin
  
  

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  • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 03:14:34 09/10/10 (24)
    In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 09, 2010 at 14:48:30

    I am very much a fan of the Grand romantic tradition from Beethoven to Prokofiev, with a particular weakness for Russian romanticism. The music pieces are big and dramatic, the chamber music is just a mini symphony- big music in a small setting. And that is how I got an OC9. It was the only low cost MC to make it through the beginning of Rachmaninov's 1st piano concerto.
    
    I actually could have tried some organ music too, some Reger maybe.
    
    Actually, if you have some organ music on LP do go ahead and see what it is like with the Technics. I would also suggest you give a try to your Ittok with outriggers at the vertical bearing (they would be perpendicular to the arm wand) this should produce a high horizontal torque and help stop the cantilever from moving the arm sideways (outside of normal advancement of the cartridge). I don't remember where I read about these and I am too tired to google it and go over the search results. The reasoning is sound, and should help with tracking. The Origin Live knife edge bearing arms are built around this idea.
    
    I have a test LP buried somewhere. I have not found it in at least two years. I keep thinking that it is near the odd records that don't quite belong to any category but it just isn't. I should just go and get a new one.
    
    I have not read up on TDP's bio, thanks for the URLs, but I remember EAR Yoshino items popping up along with Audio Innovation's shiny tube stuff through the mid 80s along with the appearance of Roksan and Pink Triangle. I thought it was the tube electronics that established him then.
    
    I absolutely loved the MF A1 and never knew TDP was involved. I always thought it was Michaelson who made the effort to transition from tubes to class A frying pans. His greatest achievement was to make op-amp based products that actually sound good.
    
    You have peaked my curiosity with the 640P but it keeps reminding me of Rotel stuff. Competent and smart and not quite up to the job. The 840C CD player/DAC - now that was impressive. Hits way beyond its price point.
    

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    • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 04:02:48 09/10/10 (23)
      In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 10, 2010 at 03:14:34

      Hi Satie,
      I think you must go to sleep later than me!!
      
      Funny you should mention the CA 840C CD player,. – I'm possibly after one of those. Or maybe the Quad 99 CDP2 or Rega Apollo (though its not as flexible). I had a 740C for a very short time, - it was too soft sounding for me, - but apparently the 840C is much better.
      The 640P phono stage is a big hitter for such a cheap product as well, - its been raved reviewed for 5 years now. I had a much more expensive Dynactvor phono stage and the Linn Linto but I prefer the 640P, - its very musical , but does everything else well too. And its a magic match with the Denon DL304. I would say it’s a very well balanced phono stage and up to the job in most respects. Better than the Rotel stuff I am sure. I would be interested to hear what you think of it. It has 39dB gain in MM mode and only 55dB in MC mode, but the S/N ratio is very good and the noise level with the 0.2mV cartridges in MC mode is fine, - with the gain of your preamp cranked up it should work well. Just got to get past the DC adaptor problem, - do you have any universal 110V DC adaptors with selectable DC voltage output and different output sockets, - the standard types? That should work fine with the 640P
      
      Yes TDP designed the circuit of the Musical fidelity A1, - its criticised if I remember right as the preamp stage has a lot of gain (which many people don’t like) and the way the volume control works is unusual and unconventional too. I read the power amp section is more highly regarded and people sometimes bypass the preamp stage and use passive preamps and other active preamps. Having said that, - its does sound good, - I had one last year (a MK2 version), - you can pick them up for peanuts here. I am no electronics expert at all (I would not be able to diagnose a fault without training) but I replaced all the caps in this A1 with more modern 105 degree electrolytics, - which are meant to last for much longer in this amp than the original 85 degree caps of the time, and the 105 degree caps are much more suited to the inferno conditions of this amp. The A1 sounded very good with the cap upgrades, but I sold it on eventually, - However I might get another. It worked pretty well on my big Proacs. Of course there is no way it would come in use with the Maggies though! There is a very useful guide on the internet for servicing the A1 yourself with mods as well etc.
      http://www.mhennessy1.f9.co.uk/mf_a1/index.htm
      But the A1 is amazing really, - it does actually sound very similar to a small push pull valve amp (I had two to compare it too, - the Audio Innovations series 500 and the Art Audio Quintet), - a bit softtish soudning, but very musical and rich sounding, with great tone. So its amazing really that he was able to pull that sort of sound out of a pretty cheap SS amp.
      I didn’t know myself that TDP designed the circuit until I read about it last year on the internet and I am sure its not and never has been common knowledge. He is not mentioned on the box!, - Like I say apparently he was a consultant who must have designed the circuit. The A1 was one of the 80s most famous amps of course, - I bet if it had been more well known at the time that TDP designed that circuit his reputation would have been enhanced even more quickly.
      
      Funny you should mention Rachmainov, - The 4 piano concertos are some of my favourites classical pieces. I have many versions of them. I am less familiar with other Orchestral composers though, - some but there are big gaps in my knowledge, - would like to learn more. Do you have any good recordings you recommend?
      I recently got into Vaughan William’s Orchestral stuff, - and I bought the box set of the Symphonies on LP (Boult/LSO) on a friends recommendation, - very nice, - but not listened to them in full yet though.
      
      I remember when I was running the Lencos alongside the LP12 for a while a few years back they are much better suited to Organ LPs than the LP12, - the bass is so much more solid, - it does not sound right on the LP12! But still with the Lencos and LP12 alike the intermodulation distortion was a problem problem from the low frequencies in Organ music LPs.
      
      I will definitely try Organ music on the Technics, - I am sure it will sound great. And will check the outriggers as per you recommendations. If I am able to get Organ and other dynamic classical LPs to play without mistraking I would be very pleased. Like I say my Organ catalogue has been limited to CDs, - Like I say CD is very good for reproducing it’s the low frequencies in Organ music.
      
      So yeah don’t worry the Ittok VTF dial was really badly off which was why I was obviously noticing mistraking. The Denon Dl304 is the better tracker of these two cartridges. Its well known to be a pretty good tracker. I am sure you will find its pretty good. It was maybe not quite as good as the OC9 with the ML2 stylus (that has very good tracking) but you were using an older OC9 though, the one with the original elliptical stylus, which I guess was probably not as good tracker as the newe version.
      The Denon has a very small tip that’s is called a special elliptical but I was told its more like an extended/line contact tip. The Paratrace tip on the retipped Troika is a more quite recent design and makes the Troika track much better than the original version so you hopefully won’t have any problems there. Do you reckon you’ll mount the carts in different headshells or would it be more convenient if I sent them to you in the Technics shells all set up for you just to put the tags on?
      
      I saw a video on Youtube of a guy steaming an LP and it’s a bit shocking, - as he starts to steam it you can see the LP seriously warping but as he continues steaming the warping goes away, - a bit scary, - does that happen when you steam LPs? If you steam do you need the Discdoctor fluid as well or can you just get away with steaming and using distilled water rinses?. The solution of the Disco Antistat ruined several of my records, - its very annoying. I will maybe try using the apparatus though (it has some brushes in it and it rotates) with just distilled water as I guess that’s the safest bet! Or maybe a water and slight alcohol mix. Will try to look for some microfibre cloths. And I guess I will need an antistat gun too.
      
      All the best,
      Colin
      
      

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      • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 04:10:39 09/11/10 (22)
        In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 10, 2010 at 04:02:48

        Busy yesterday and probably most of today.
        
        I got the Signet branded OC9 which came with the ML tip.
        
        Re MF A1 I nearly bought one but it didn't have enough power on the JBL Centuries to cook my ears on the orchestral spectaculars I listen to (loudly). By then I had replaced the tweeters with a Yamaha NS1000 tweeter, and differences in sound quality upstream became very obvious.
        
        Re CD - get the Trivista21 if you can afford it. If you can afford the mods, it should get new opamps - opa627 and have the caps bypassed with high quality foil caps - Underwood Hifi offer a good set of mods. On the used market the Trivista is probably about as good as digital gets without going to DCS/Theta/Wadia/Novaphysics phenomenally expensive gear. The new DAC2 from Wyred 4 sound seems to be a good one, but I don't know how well it stacks against the Trivista. It does have a discrete output stage and seems to make a good SS preamp to boot. Monarchy's NM24 is another really great DAC, but is a wee bit weak on the lowest bass - like the Cambridge 840C.
        
        OK so the 640P should be considered as serious kit. I'll look around here, there are plenty of them, it is really not worthwhile to ship.
        
        Re mounted vs naked cartridges. If you want me to try a particular alignment than send the cartridges in their headshels. I just use Technic's mounting guide to position the stylus and align the cartridge. Seems to work well, so I stopped trying other alignments. If you think this is ok, then nothing could be easier than mounting this way.
        
        Re expanding the repertoire will have to wait a bit.
        
        Cleaning solution should have at least 10% isopropanol and up to 30% or even a bit more to promote rapid evaporation. Yes, steaming may seem very aggressive, but the vinyl was slowly relaxed when pressed in the production process, so should snap back into shape
        
        

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        • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 07:46:32 09/11/10 (21)
          In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 11, 2010 at 04:10:39

          Hi Saite,
          Sorry to take up so much of your time not doubt with these long winded discussions (interesting and informative though they are!) so don’t worry if you haven’t got time to reply.
          
          Thanks very much for the info on the record cleaning. So I’ll get off to the chemist to get some distilled water and rubbing alcohol (which I understand is usually isopropyl alcohol). I can try this mixture already with my Disco antistat apparatus which you rotate by hand, - it has two stiff brushes fitted in it. And I will get microfiber cloth for drying. Should I rinse with a further similar water/Alcohol solution after cleaning once? Or is that not needed?
          My only slight reservation is that that I’ve heard load of conflicting stuff about using isopropyl alcohol for cleaning records and also for cleaning styluses. Many people seem to think it can possibly damage the record groove and leave deposits too, and if use it for cleaning a stylus tip it can apparently move up the cantilever and accumulate deposits at the suspension and wreck it is there is rubber there. I’ve read that for record cleaning that standard Ethanol or IMS is better in this regard as it leaves a lot less deposit. It is not as volatile as Isoproyl though so that’s a drawback when drying. I guess isopropyl used in your mix is fine if you are vacuuming off the solution with a machine as much less likely to leave a deposit on the record. But I will of course be using the cloths to start off with. What do you reckon?
          
          By the way when you said to clean your stylus you wet a record and play, - do you mean just well the record a little with distilled water or a water/alcohol mix?
          
          Ahh I see so steaming should be safe despite the warping that happens whilst you are doing it, - interesting stuff. I would need an old DD deck though. Do you need to rinse as well after steaming?
          
          Many thanks for the DACs info, - the MF looks very nice. I will add it to my list. The Quad 99 CDP2 is supposed to very good too, - better than the 840C in general from the opinions I’ve read about it (though it’s a little more priecy) and it has the digital inputs for stand alone DAC use too which is very nice. It came out a few years ago as an upgrade of the standard Quad 99 CDP. A new Quad range is coming out soon to replace the 99 stuff so I might get one cheap. The other one people always mention though is the Rega Apollo, - not as flexible as the 840C or Quad as it has no inputs but all the views I have read say its sound slightly superior to the 840C too, and might be a very good used buy. But I do like the idea of having a DAC built in the player.
          
          Yes you are right, there should be a lot of 640Ps around the whole world, - you could find one there very easily. Along with the 740C and 840C I bet it probably one of CAs best seller. Maybe even the best seller. I’ll see I might have a universal 12 V DC adaptor knocking around myself, possibly one used on something else, -there are a lot of adapters at my office used for printers/scanners etc! If I’m able to find something suitable it would be criminal not to put the 640P in the package for you to try too, - it will hardly add any weight to the package.
          
          I have been reading around about the Denon AU-S1 transformer. From the limited stuff I have read it is very well regarded. Very hard to tell though as there are not more reviews but its likely to be top notch. It has big dense transformers and weighs 3.2kg. Shame there are no comparisons of how it compares to the TX103 etc. The AU-S1 has fixed 1:13 step up ratio but that likely to be useful for a wide range of cartridges. I guess its not quite as immediately flexible for testing different loading as a step up like the head unless you have a Melos to easily change the main phono stage loading! I think the Denon has an “impedance matching circuit” in it, - not sure how that works exactly but I guess it helps.
          
          I’ve been looking up on opinions on the Denon DL-S1 cartridge too as there has been more forum stuff written about it in the past couple of years since I last looked. This looks like fantastic cartridge, - very similar to a 304 in the mid and treble but with more bass and weight to the sound but overall a bit better balanced. That really would be an ideal cartridge for me. It such a shame the prices of the DL-S1 and AU-S1 have doubled (that happened about 1.5 years ago when all the Denon stuff went up).. These two were introduced in the 1994 ( a little later than the 304) but like I say the price was also totally static until 2008! I am really kicking myself for not trying either of them before the price hike. Either of them could be had for about £350-400 from Japan on Ebay, but like I say now they are over £800 each.
          I might put up some wanted ads on the off chance someone might have either of them secondhand.
          Here are some interesting views on some common MCs
          http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oJX2iWH3rUQJ:myweb.tiscali.co.uk/daveyw/cartridges/mc-cartridges/+denon+"dl-s1"+304&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
          
          
          I don’t totally agree with the OC9 opinion of course but the other opinions seem pretty accurate and very close to what I’ve heard (I’ve tried all of these, except the Dyna 17D3, and said Denon DL-S1). The descriptions of the Denon DL110, DL160, DL304, Dynavector DV20XL and SOME of the OC9 description is extremely similar sounding to my experience.
          The Ortofon T5 transformers they used partly in these reviews are pretty cheap numbers though, - those tiny in line transformers. Though I’ve tried them before, - there are surprisingly good for something so small and cheap though, but I got rid of mine as they a bit prone to hum, - there is no separate earth line when using them.
          
          The difference in the treble the guy describes in the 304 vs OC9 is very much reminiscent of my own experience, - the 304 just sounds very good indeed and very refined and capable in the treble, - the OC9 is very obviously strident in comparison and not as good up there, despite both of them having very good treble extension.
          
          One cartridge I would still love to try is the highly thought of Denon DL103D which has an elliptical stylus and a medium compliance, - that cartridge was never release here so there are really none around on the used market which is a real shame. I see in the USA people hoard them as they are so well regarded. An Expert stylus modified standard DL103 costs £350 new when I spoke to them on the phone yesterday. The guy I spoke to reckons its as good as a £1500 cartridge. Might be, but it’s a bit of an unknown quantity. They also sell the Benz cartridges very cheap, - the ACE is £300 and the Glider is only £395 (nearly half price), - so I might try them but he reckoned the redone DL103 is a lot better.
          They don’t change the low compliant suspension though when doing the 103 retip. This is why I find the DL103D stock cartridge quite attractive as it has a reworked, more complaint suspension, - more along the lines of medium compliance like the DL110. A cross between the Dl110 and DL103 would really be an ideal Denon budget MC cartridge. The better tip and medium compliance of the DL110 but with the inner workings/low output MC characteristics of the DL103. I guess the DL103D was that exact cartridge, - does seems a bit mad they discontinued it.
          
          I set up my cartridges for Baerwald alignment, by getting the overhang on a cart to fit 66 and 121mm null points. This is supposed to give the least overall distortion over the entire record. The Technics alignment is more like Stevenson alignment and is a bit better for end of side at the slight expense of slightly higher overall distortion levels throughout the whole side. If you you’d prefer to use the cart with the Technics alignment jut let me know I’ll change it so its already set up for you.
          http://www.vinylengine.com/twisting-your-cartridge-headshell.shtml
          
          
          
          The JBLS. – not those are another big vintage speaker I want to try and have not done yet. I heard they are well regarded but perhaps not as detailed as newer designs. How did they fare? Or are the Maggies far superior in general? I guess so as you no doubt have had the Maggies for quite a while now.
          I’ve always wanted to try the Yamaha NS1000 speaker. Its apparently a love or hate speaker. SOMETIMES you can find them cheap here, - and they are worth a lot reselling on Ebay etc, - I always keep an eye out for a pair. One speaker I have heard a few times which has some real kick is the Celestion Ditton 66 Studios monitors, - 12” bass driver with 12” passive radiator, HF2000 tweeter and dome mid. I do like them, - they really hold their value. There are quite a few different versions of them though but the standard MK2 is supposed to be better as the crossover has 24dB LR alignment but that makes is a bit harder to drive than the MK1. They are very efficient but are for a modern SS amp only really as the back EMF is a problem for a valve amp apparently. I’ve nearly bought the 66 several times but not yet. They are not quite as refined sounding as the Proacs and nothing close to the Maggies of course but that 12” driver and the great bass they can produce is something to behold. And they do have a good mid and treble. I held back partly because of the need to update the crossover in these ageing speakers. With my new knowledge of active crossovers (thanks of course mainly to you) when I am a bit more knowledgeable still and have the Behrginer upgraded I might well get a pair of 66s and try them active and experiment with different crossover setups using the Behringer. Then at least I will not have the expense to upgrade the passive crossover inside them.
          
          Will try the 304 out tomorrow on the Technics, - will let you know the score.
          
          All the best,
          Colin
          
          

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          • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 16:18:10 09/12/10 (20)
            In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 11, 2010 at 07:46:32

            Cleaning:
            1. There are downsides to both ethanol and isopropyl alcohol. Either can cause damage and swell the vinyl or acetate, or release the release compound remnants and most often redissolve old record treatments. Which is why you should NOT use stiff bristle brushes on the record with this solution. Use the discwasher brush, the Hunt brush or something similar. 2. Rinsing is necessary only if you let most of the material evaporate before wiping or vacuuming it off. It is a good precaution. Should only be done with deionized or distilled water alone or with no more than 10% alcohol.
            3. No need to rinse after a steaming unless you have gunk left over after wiping or vacuuming.
            4. Call up the manufacturer of you cartridge to make sure it is not sensitive to isopropanol or ethanol.
            
            Damn DG pressings from the late 60s they are so thick i have only 1/2 a mm left on the vta adjustment. But oh so nice...
            
            I guess I should bone up on the Quad 99 mkII to see where it stands in the pecking order. I'll need to find a dealer in the area or an evangelical owner. I always liked Rega stuff outside their turntables, which though undeniably musical are too wobly for me. It was a relief to have mine go after the nearly 2 years I had it. I was impressed with their ealy CD player and the ELA speaker (for nearfield listening in a small room). They also had a nice low power integrated for a while. Everything was very musically communicative but nothing was particularly high performing - not bass, not output power or loudness. So while I am sure their CD players would have little of that problem since they don't need that much output power. which would play into their strengths. The player is unique at this price level in having a memory buffer and non-standard error correction to rebuild the digital data in time and word to more perfect. Now all they need to do is make an effort to build a class A output stage.
            
            In general, I would like to get a CD player with DAC access for other digital sources (computer based), So while I would walk away ffom an Oppo BDP83 SE because of its lack of DAC functionality, I would not let a Sony 5400 go because of it, since it gets so much closer to as good as it gets before paying up automobile like prices. But with a reasonable expenditure on modding the cheap output stage you can get the oppo to function like a true high end player.
            
            Re - why Denon stuff went up: The Japanese yen appreciated shraply in the last decade, particularly during the crisis, and at some point prices had to rise to reflect it.
            
            I came across the Denon stepup transformers on the vintageknob.com while researching DD turntables a few years back. Appears that during the golden age of Japanese high end they did wonders on that count, but never sold them abroad in substantial quantities. I am sure that at that scale tipping weight there is enough wire and magnetic compound to do the job well. I don't think you will find the comparison you are looking for because they are both rather rare items outside Japan and I don't see many Japanese translations though it is probably there you would find someone with both in their collection chatting up his experience.
            
            I had come across the DL S1 spoken of as a great performer and a great deal. But I was not looking in that direction (I am looking towards trying out a Sounsmith Shibata tipped moving Iron) so I was not paying much attention. But I'll read up on it with "daves thoughts" in mind. I have not come across the 103D online in print or in real life, so I haven't a clue. But your speculation seems reasonable.
            
            Re alignment, I don't have a Baerwold protractor or whatever those are called, I used the Oracle setup routine with their arm and others with similar effective length and I believe theirs is a Baerwald. But the Technics alignment seems fine too - at least to these ears that cut off at 17khz. So if you think these would come out better with your favored alignment, then send them mounted. If you dont't think it matters that much I will be happy to mount with the Technics standard.
            
            Re Speakers and JBL The JBL has great bass and decent midrange, but not great group delay and a throwaway tweeter with no extension to speak of. It creates a very broad panoramic view but is shallow and imprecise. The NS1000 tweeters help alot. The greatest thing is the bass and midbass that can carry power and stay tight without eating too much power. They are nothing like a well setup ribon maggie, not even close.
            
            I am not familliar with that Celestion. That is rather big for a Celestion product. The SL6 was great but for a lack of real bass and missing midbass power.
            
            What you really need to come across is the old top reference speakers from KEF. The "titled" Tannoys, and the thin wood AudioNote and Harbeths. If you come across an Altec voice of the theater you can swap the bass with one of the Neo units I showed you and with new compression drivers from that same Italian manufacturer and get a hyper sensitive speaker that can be driven to room shaking volume with a couple of watts.
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            

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            • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 04:43:47 09/13/10 (19)
              In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 12, 2010 at 16:18:10

              Hi Satie,
              Thanks for the advice on the record cleaning. That’s interesting. So soft brush only with alcohol. That could be a problem as the brushes in my disco antistat brushes are quite stiff.
              I rewashed several records the disco messed up. I initially used the disco solution again and cleaned with the machine. I let them air dry then rinsed using the disco apparatus and distilled water, then let them dry again for several hours.
              This was much better in that the usual nasty residue that accumulates at the stylus when playing record cleaned with the disco solution alone is eliminated, so the rinsing with water seems to have got rid of the residue. But the problem left over is static, - there is a lot of it. Much more than when you just wash with the disco solution alone.
              I read that the main way around the static is to vacuum the solution off without having contact with the record. Is this right or is there anything else I can do? If vacuuming is the only answer to the static issue I need to sort something out, - perhaps the Bissel wet vacuum like you suggested, - will that get rid of static with the microfibre cloth?
              I am pretty sure the Disco antistat solution uses quite a bit of IPA, - so I am a bit worried it might damage records. I could get a softer brush , but the disco apparatus is very easy to use. Could I make up my own weak alcohol solution?, - say 10-15% IPA in distilled water and use that, (then rinse with water) or would the stiff brittles still be a problem?
              
              After cleaning the records again to be free of residue I am having far less problems with the stylus cleanliness – and I am never going to use that Clearaudio stylus solution again. What a con, - it obviously dissolves the release agent in the vinyl making a residue, - meaning you have to use it literally every five minutes as your stylus gets gummed up and even a stiff brushing won’t remove it without applying more solution!
              
              With your method for cleaning the stylus by playing a wet record,- do you just use distilled water for that or alcohol/water solution? And how much solution do you use?! A bit I guess?!
              
              As for the Quad 99 stuff, - its is very well regarded and has stood the test of time, - its been out since 1999, - they are phasing it out now and replacing it with the “elite series” but apparently the designs/insides of all the pieces are pretty much exactly the same as the 99 series but the components are slightly upgraded. Will have to wait to see how they fare.
              
              The 99 CDP2 is a very well regarded CD player, and it has the digital inputs too, but it’s a fair bit more pricey than the 840C. The 840C soon will be discontinued soon as well (think they are bringing out 850C/750C) so I might look for a used one then.
              The 99 range was started with manufacture in the UK, but the manufacture was switched to China in about 2006 so. The 99 preamp I have is an earlier one, - designed and manufactured in the UK it says on the back.
              The 99 Preamp is another well regarded item. It is a very good preamp. The only slight issue is the lack of output volts I suppose, but its not as bad as that Quad 66 I had. The phono stage on both MC and MM are very good, and it has the adjustable input sensitivity of three levels on all inputs too. It it pretty light, - if you like I can send you that to try out with the cartridges instead of the 640P, - I could put it in the package without problems. That’s if the voltage output issue of it will be OK?, - I know you like a preamp with high volts.
              
              As for the Rega stuff, - I agree with you on the vinyl and the amps. I had a P3 for a while myself, - you are right, - its quite OK but nothing special, - nothing stands out. But I guess you right on the CD players as not much output is needed. The Apollo is a refinement of the Planet/planet 2000 and is DOES have a Class A output stage as well as the memory buffer. See here http://www.rega.co.uk/html/apollo.htm
              Its had rave reviews since it came out. I am seriously tempted to get one, - all he views I have read say its much better than anything else unless you spend a lot more, - and its usually always said as being better than the 840C. Not sure how it stakes up against the Quad but that costs quite a bit more money.
              There is also the Rega Saturn that has upgraded caps and stuff in it, - that’s supposed to be even better than the Apollo.
              http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Saturn.htm
              Again class A output stage, - looks more upgraded too.
              Both players are actually cheaper new than when they came out. Rega increased the prices of them a couple of years back but then subsequently decreased the prices of them to cheaper than the original price! So yeah well worth looking at too.
              
              The other option like you say which is very interesting on the CD front is upgrading the output stage on a cheaper player, - sounds interesting. Looking at the specs of the Rega class A output stages do you think I could still get better results upgrading the output stage of a cheap player?
              The Apollo is around £300 used here so it is quite a bargain, - that’s cheaper than a used 840C (they usually go for around £400). Just like I say the only drawback is the lack of digital inputs for directly accessing the DAC. But it would be a good buy to test out, - easily resalable used for the same money if I got a used one to try.
              
              Yes it seems the Denon DL-S1 is a very well regarded cartridge along with the 304. Just the price! But I bet its still a very good deal even for the asking price, - I am just a little uncomfortable about spending that much on a perishable item!.
              It’s a real shame about the step up, the Denon AU-S1, - in that there is very little info on how they stack up against the TX103 etc. Some people do have them here though, so maybe I could try to track down an evangelical owner (to borrow your expression!) and they also do turn up on Yahoo Japan used, - as do the cartridges. I have not look for a while, - will take a peek.
              When you say talk about the Japanese “golden age” do you mean the 70 and 80s?
              
              So is that JBL Century the top model everyone talks about or are there some other vintage ones that are better that? I agree with you top that KEFs, Montior Tannoys and others would be a good bet to try if I can find them cheap (which is unlikely). Not too familiar with Harbeths and I’ve never tried an Audinote speaker.
              
              The Celestion 66 is very well regarded, - I am surprised you have not heard of it before. What I have heard is that amps of the day when it was made (back in the 70s) were unable to control it well due to the back EMF of the passive radiator, but its having a resurgence now with all the SS amps around with high damping factor etc. And its more well regarded now that it was when it came out. I was originally launched as a studio design which is also partly why it was not so well known at the time in the HI-Fi arena. The prices are rising all the time, - it’s a similar price used to the small used Tannoy monitor golds. The 66 is a great speaker, - you are right its pretty big. I heard one once at a friends house (a MK2), - different from the Maggies of course but I would say it’s a great speaker and amongst the best I’ve personally heard, - very good, solid and powerful bass and a great mid. Top is pretty good too. Its pretty sensitive and easy to drive save for the back EMF issue. I heard once of a dealer saying he bought a used pair from a place that had been used as disco speakers!
              
              I started on the speaker Delam repair yesterday and have done one so far! Not put the sock back yet though. It very tedious, but at least I know roughly how to do it now.
              I also managed to adjust the Technics suspension, - it’s a little fiddly, - quite hard to fit the socket in the holes!
              Not tried the DL304 on the Technics yet due the dealm repair, suspension adjustment and the re cleaning of the records but I am going to try it today or tomorrow and will let you know how it sounds. The Troika sounds great on the Technics in my opinion. Very well balanced. I am a little worried the DL304 might sound too light. It sounds very well balanced on my Pre-cirkus LP12 but I think that’s because the two items have extreme balances and they help balance each other out, - the Denon DL304 is light sounding and the pre-cirkus LP12/Ittok is quite big and bloated sounding
              
              I played Rachmaninov Piano concerto NO1 (Ashkenazy/LSO 70s version) on the Technics with Troika,- With the tracking at about 1.65 grams I could not hear any distortion on the big swings. With lower VTF than this there was a bit of distortion at times.
              
              As for the DG pressing, - sorry to hear about that problem with the VTA!, - With both the 304 and Troika they are much lower profile than the taller Garrot, - you will have plenty of adjustment left with records like these.
              
              As for the Crossover with the 3.3R, - I found out something else, - after looking more closely it seems those two schematics for the 3.3Rs on the MUG site and because the 3.3R had a revision and the earlier ones have slightly different crossover to the newer ones.
              http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/xover/3.3xover.html
              The original one has a 53uf cap on the mid, 20uf on the tweeter and 275uf in the bass (in the crossover box).
              The later version has 50uf on the mid, 17uf on the tweeter and 225uf in the bass.
              How big are these differences?
              The problem is, having a look at the internal crossover on my speaker (I can see it now I got the sock off), mine one has a 50uF cap on the mid and a 20uF cap on the tweeter, so its unlike the two versions posted here, - this is odd!, - is this likely to make much difference?
              
              All the best,
              Colin
              
              

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              • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 13:54:49 09/13/10 (18)
                In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 13, 2010 at 04:43:47

                Re Cleaning
                
                If you can avoid leaving the cleaning solution on the record more than few mins then swelling is not an issue. swelling takes time so a couple of minutes is fine and if you like your brushes use them.
                
                Static - the moisture from the record cleaning solution should keep you from having static buildup during cleaning. Same when using the microfiber on the vacuum attachment.
                
                Playing the wet record for stylus cleaning. I use distilled water on a good record that can use a mild cleaning, or use a record that I consider trash and use cleaning solution, as none of my cartridges proved sensitive to isopropaanol.
                
                Re Apollo, I missed the class A output stage, that should make a significant difference, that and the memory buffer would make for a great player, I never got to listen to the Apollo, so I don't know how well it went, but I loved the Planet in its time. The reviews were great and it is still highly regarded. They still go for $600 used here - it was a consideration for me too, (the saturn at 1100-1200 used here was out of the question for me) but with better DACs having so much more flexibility and my old heavily built Sony 707ES (the first single bit player and granddaddy of DSD) for transport, I was looking more for a DAC and a cheap universal player to feed it digital from SACD, DVDA, USB memory sticks (best option), and the computer. I gave up on SACD digital output, and skipped the DVDA in favor of hi rez computer audio and bluray audio (digital output) in the future. These days you can get a used Esoteric basic universal player/DVD for the VRDS transport from a prior generation for a steep but not unrealistic price and add later a good DAC, like the Trivista or the Monarchy or a new discrete output one like the DAC2 from Wyred4Sound. Still the Sony 5400 is tops in real price SACD/CD playback in an integrated unit. The Trivista DAC is still a value standout in the used market as being just one generation behind the current technology and having a killer output stage - with upgrade potential.
                I was a cheapskate on the digital since technology obsoletes stuff so quickly and well executed upsampling seems to be very close to high bit formats. My Musical Fidelity HTP Pre/Proc/DAC played as well as the 840C but has better bass and endless flexibility and big 10V output and preamp functions. I found a couple of reviewers who used it as an HT pre for 2 channel too, and did not realize (or care) that their analog was being digitized and played back from digital. That convinced me to go that way, particularly as lacking HDMI made it useless for most folks into HT it was dirt cheap - one third of the cost of an 840C, 40% less than a used MF 3.24 DAC. I don't think I would but it today, as it is not really hi rez compatible - but then I don't intend to go into hi rez till discount software is available on the second hand market.
                
                I still have not researched the Quad 99, so I don't have anything to say yet.
                
                The Japanese golden age lasted from the late 70s till 1990 and marks the last time large scale corporations dedicated serious engineering talent to design high end audio equipment and production equipment for it. Though the latter 80s saw quality slipping, it was still beyond what any large scale corporate producer did outside of Japan. These days we see a revival effort in corporate audio producers with Marantz Harmon (Revel, JBL, Mark Levinson, Infinity) Sony ES, and TEAC's Esoteric division churning out serious high end products with real engineering content. Even Luxman is back. Old stalwart big boutiques like Cambridge, NAD and MF are coming out with a new generation of high end product to compete in the Asian High End market - now bigger than the US and EU one since noveau riche are more appreciative of high performance and nameplates than old money.
                
                Re carts: I would not worry about how the DL304 sounds like on the technics player, you will have it on and find out. Besides, with easy VTAF, you can easily adjust to get a slightly fuller sound, and the Technics is not a light sounding table like say the Oracles. The absence of the midbass bloat will probably turn out to be a benefit.
                
                Good thing with the Troika. Maybe you can finally get the benefit of analog classical. The opening of the Rachmaninov PC1 is really a grand test, isn't it.
                
                I'm with you on spending on carts, though mine lasted way longer than I had ever imagined they would. I am wary of dumping significant money into a cart, so I normally buy new or lightly used, and only at a big discount to new. Never more than 50% of original street price. The Denon DL-S1 does seem attractive if you can get a good deal on it - but it goies for $600 used here, which is a little more than I would put into a cartridge.
                
                Don't worry about the non standard crossover values, the difference only amounts to shifting the crossover point 1/2 a tone, and nearly nothing in phase. Besides, I took the more current schematic from MUG for back calculating the crossover and came out well over 10% off - which did make a difference - 2 tones+.
                
                Good luck on the remaining repair, hopefully the repair will hold!!
                
                Re JBL, their best stuff was the pro audio stuff under the JBL pro and Urei pro from the 70s and more recently Revel and Infinity Prelude, and the new horn loaded JBL label speakers. The vintage JBL consumer speaker to hear is the later L200, which was a modern redo of the L100 centuries. My friend here had a Revel Ultima Studio (not the bigger salon, and it was rather impressive), but I think my modded Tympani sound better. Definitely bass was tighter in my setup and midrange was significantly more defined on my Neo8 and the soundstage orders of magnitude greater.
                
                
                

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                • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 15:57:28 09/13/10 (17)
                  In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 13, 2010 at 13:54:49

                  Hi Satie,
                  Thanks for all the help and advice again, - really appreciate it, - I’ll have a look to see if I have any other valves as well as a Mullard ECC83 I can send you, - I think I’ve got an unused Brimar ECC83 as well knocking around. In the Yaqin phono stage the Mullard sounds too bloated and thick as it’s a very heavy sounding phono stage! The lighter sounding chinese 12AX7, 12AU7s actualyl sound more suited in the bloated sounding Yaqin!
                  
                  Thanks for the info on the Crossover, - that’s a relief. I see there is a bit of difference in the bass cap value and that’s what you are talking about with the slight ½ tone change. But does my internal crossover not being exactly the same as either of these schematics matter at all from the mid/treble point on view? I don’t think so as the value change is very slight. The original schematic used 20uF and 53uF caps in the internal crossover and the later version used 17uF and 50uF, but like I say mine uses 20uF and 50uF.
                  
                  Re buying used cartridges our philosophies are the same. I would not spend that much money on a cartridge. The DL-S1 would be the same price used here, - maybe about £400 and I probably would not even spend that much on a new cartridge let alone a used one. Maybe £300 for a new Denon DL304 would be my absolute limit really. The retipped Troika was the most expensive cartridge I have bought so far, - and that was £330. I did not pay for the retpping myself (which is a good job, - its cost about £300 alone now!), - it had recently been done by Expert stylus then the guy I bought it from unluckily had lost his job so had to sell all his gear. I recouped the cost of buying this cartridge by selling a used original Troika (with the original tip) for £400 and a Linn Karma for £250 (both on Ebay of course!). I had got hold of both of them thrown in with used LP12s.
                  
                  The paratrace tip on the retipped Troika is the business according to Expert stylus as although it does slightly change the sound of the cartridge (it becomes slightly more analytical than the original Troika) you get more treble extension but crucially as well the cartridge tracks much better with the improved tip and lighter VTFs are possible too. The original stylus is a poor tracker. Expert used an extended contact tip for many years for retipping but switched entirely to the paratrace tip in recent years as it does everything much better. I quite liked the original Troika I had but I thought selling it and keeping the Expert Troika was a much better idea for the longer term.
                  
                  Yes I noticed the the Technics has a full sound like you describe. And indeed there is no midbass bloat like there is on the pre-cirkus LP12. The problem with the Denon DL304 is it is lacking in the midbass a bit, - so the LP12s mid bass issue actually helps balance things out I think. Similarly the Troika has a prodigious mid bass (in fact the whole bass region is pretty strong) and I think it’s ironically far better suited for the Technics than the LP12.
                  
                  Wanted to ask did you ever have any experience of the Benz cartridges at all? As I know a place here that can sell them nearly at half the UK retail price.
                  They can sell an ACE for £300 and a Glider for £400. Again I would rather not spend that much if possible but they are supposed to be very good cartridges. I know Andy has a Benz Ebony but thats well out of my price range at around £2000!
                  
                  Thanks for the moral support for the repair, - its very tedious, - you need a couple of free days to do and get it over with in my opinion. I am doing it from time to time in the evenings and the first speaker is not finished yet! (have to put the sock back, staple, put tweeter back on!) and its been over a week! When I’ve done this I might have a look at the 2.7s sometime, - its tedious but at least I will be more confident what I’m doing them.
                  I am in two minds as to whether to laminate over the DAP repair, - I don’t have any miloxane or anything similar. Perhaps I should hold of stapling the sock up for the time being until I decide whether I need it or not. I’ve read that the DAP can hold on its own and you don’t need to laminate but I should research a bit more to make doubly sure.
                  
                  The newer Rega Apollo with the class A output stage is definitely a better sounding player than the Planet (which was a good player in itself like you say). The Apollo really is the business for a budget player as far as I’ve read, - really considered to be the best thing available up to the price point of the Saturn. Your insights into getting a good transport (a older generation higher spec DVD player) then getting a good DAC and modifying it are very cost effective, as you are right things depreciate so much on the digital market. But I think the Rega Apollo or Saturn are actually great used buys as the values do not seen to depreciate much if at all with these Rega CD player, - Like you say the planet still sells for considerable money (especially in the US) and its well over 10 years old now. So a used Apollo for about £300 might be a good choice for me if I can live without the digital ins. Of course like you say the transport/DAC option would be cheaper but the Apollo is less hassle and I’d be pretty confident of it holding its value. The only reason for going for the 840C would be for the digital ins, - I read on forums here of people going to places where they sell both the Apollo and 840C and after hearing the Apollo the potential buyer asked “can I hear the 840C now?” and the general answer is “don’t bother”! As obviously the Apollo is better sounding!
                  
                  Thanks for the interesting info on the Japanese Golden era. With so much decent potential used stuff over there I think Yahoo Japan is actually quite a good place to look for used kit, - you can use a service like Kuboten or Japonica market to buy the stuff on your behalf and send onto you. Though there is a fee it is not high. Really top of my list is the Denon AU-S1 transformer as if I could get one for a good price it would be a better buy than a used DL-S1 in the respect its not a perishable item. I can test it against my “head” and sell it on for similar money if its not as good. Will have to think what other kit to look for. Like we both know there are load of decent Japanese DD turntables that are highly over engineered of course. But I’d probably be a bit uncomfortable about a TT travelling that far! And teh Technics decks are very godo and readily availabel outside Japan (well obviously the 1200/1210 MK2 is at least) Do you think that some of those real battlshipe 70/80s japanese turntables - like the the top Luxmans, Denons, Sansuis etc, would offer a big improvement over the Technics decks?
                  
                  Many thanks for the tip on the cleaning RE swelling with Alcohol. I have just got some microfibre cloths from a local shop. The problem with the Disco antistat solution is they recommended you leave it to air dry. This takes about ten minutes. I guess if the solution contains IPA (which I am sure it does) this is a bit risky as it could be prone to swelling the vinyl. So would a good plan be to wash in the Disco using the stock solution. Wipe off the solution quickly with microfibre and then wash in distilled water afterwards and then microfibre again and then air dry completely? Or is the extra rinsing stage in the water not needed if I am wiping the disco solution off with the microfibre cloths?
                  Thanks for the info on stylus tip cleaning. If I am going for the good record and distilled water approach how much water should I put on the record for this purpose?
                  
                  All the best,
                  Colin
                  
                  

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                  • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 15:12:09 09/14/10 (16)
                    In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 13, 2010 at 15:57:28

                    Re Benz cartridges, I heard the Benz Glider (or some other naked Benz), MC (the cheap one) and wood. All in the early 90s. Though they have improved their styli with Geiger cut diamonds (FGS like the Garrott MM) since I last listened to one, which reviewers have found to enhance their detail retrieval and enhance image construction, they are still thought to sound a little woody with what some call bloom and others call bloat. Some think it sounds more natural and tubey, I was impressed in the day with the level of detail and absence of screech from an MC. The cartridges do not sound thin and do not have a rising top end, but the "de-icing" of the classic MC sound is accomplished by letting the wood resonate and induce colorations - not old style LP12 bloat - but the same idea. The cartridges share strongly the family sound and differ in the degree of detail retrieval and soundstage/imaging quality, how well bass extension does and how well the woody color is applied - lumpy in the lower priced ones, smoothly and less noticeably in the higher end ones. Dynamics are good throughout the line and improve slightly as you go along pricing. Reviewers view the new Geiger tipped glider to be an actual high end cartridge. I never got that impression from the earlier incarnation. Salvatore concurs, putting the gliders of the day on par with some Denon 103 variants
                    http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Cartridges.html
                    
                    BTW he has a dedicated Denon 103 and variants page
                    http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Denon.html
                    
                    Ortofon Kontrapunkt series carts, the C in particular, seem to get the same or better detail as the Wood (L2? at the time) and not have that rising high end nor the woody warmth. One of my finalists as far as sound is concerned (the B and if I could swing it or get a serious discount then the C). The B is still a budget cartridge, the C is a true high end cartridge.
                    
                    Re Denon on Technics, there is no point in worry when you already have both table and cartridge - there is only the need to try it out. After all, the 304 is not going to melt down the table or the other way round.
                    Listen first, and try to ignore your expectations.
                    
                    You are making me think of dumping my setup for an Apollo and since it has all this error correction and buffering, it may also make for a great CD transport if it puts out a corrected SPDIF signal. I never got to hear one, but if customers who hear the Apollo never go for the 840C, then that is indeed an achievement. Outside of its bass, there is nothing to fault the 840C with as I heard it. Particularly playing high rez as a DAC. I found it remarkable that an op-amp output can sound so good without Michaelson's magic circuit.
                    
                    Re Miloxane. Put it on. It serves two functions - first is to protect the wires from exposure to moisture - definitely a problem in your neck of the woods. Second, it provides minor damping of high frequencies and helps with the midrange cavity resonance.
                    
                    There were significantly better tables than the Technics SL series. There were tables made for broadcast - the most successful was the Technics SP10MkII - which needs to be mounted. Prices on those have held up very very well. There is one Denon model that performs very well, it also is a plinth less drive unit that needs to be mounted. Then there are Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha (belt drive 800 and 1000 models), the top Sansui DD, and a top Sony integrated broadcast table, see http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-PS-X9.html you should give the site a good viewing. Lots of info.
                    Also look at their coverage of Onkyo Kenwood and Luxman tables.
                    
                    I think there is a problem in the instruction on your antistatic cleaning fluid. Though swelling is a temporary phenomenon and goes back down with thorough drying, it does make the LP more susceptible to scratching with hard brushes. So leaving the cleaning fluid on top of the LP and letting it air dry sounds wrong to me. The fluid should be mopped up or vacuumed off. Then the residue would be minimal.
                    
                    The antistatic coating is a bad idea since it deliberately deposits gunk on your LP. You don't want it. If you do have a serious problem with static, just drip distilled water on the LP surface in a swirl from the start to the end and play the record wet. You can use 0.5-1 drop of dish washing detergent per liter (no more than that) of distilled water to enhance wetting (truly clean records do not wet that well and the water does not reach into the gooves). I think the line contact styli can't be used with coating products as these were designed for round tips that should press the material aside, as opposed to microlines that peel the stuff off the groove.
                    
                    Re crossover values - there is no substantive difference in the mid and treble crossover values. Most commercial caps aren't even spec'd within a 5% tolerance, so magnepan decides its crossovers to work with high and low values departing from the nominal design values.
                    

                    ---

                    • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 07:01:37 09/15/10 (3)
                      In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 14, 2010 at 15:12:09

                      Quick update,
                      Waiting to hear back from Rega Re the SPDIF and the mains voltage issues.
                      But I rang Quad servicing, - the UK model 99 preamp definitely is configurable for 110V mains voltage as well as 240V, - you have to open up, move some jumper pins inside the amp and resolder, - I've heard about this before. So I can send you it to try if you like after you've "boned up" on it to see if you think its worth it.
                      I'll see if I can find the info on exactly what to do under the lid.
                      Cheers,
                      Colin
                      
                      

                      ---

                      Edits: 09/15/10   09/15/10   09/15/10

                      • Re: Quad 99 CDP2 - Satie 09:11:22 09/15/10 (2)
                        In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 15, 2010 at 07:01:37

                        I was thinking along the lines of a quad 99 CDP2 you were describing before. I remember reading the review and not being struck with the description of the sound and the comparisons.
                        http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/106quad/
                        That is why it peaked my curiosity when you pointed it out as something competing with the Rega players.
                        

                        ---

                        • RE: Re: Quad 99 CDP2 - Davy 15:06:14 09/15/10 (0)
                          In Reply to: RE: Re: Quad 99 CDP2 posted by Satie on September 15, 2010 at 09:11:22

                          HI Satie,
                          Sorry I looked at the Quad 99 CDP2 review more closely. I see what you mean its not a stand out review like all the Rega ones are. It could be that it not that great but what I have read elsewhere would suggest otherwise, - if this is the case perhpas its just a conservative review? Like I say I'v heard the Quad is better sounding in general than the 840C.
                          Not sure how it compares to the Regas.
                          A used 99 CDP2 and a used Rega Saturn would be about the same price here (about £600) if you didn't need the digital inputs the Rega Saturn would be the beter sounding bet I am sure. And like I say the Apollo is really worth trying for less money if the inputs are not essential. I think when I have the cash I'll get an Apollo to try.
                          Did not hear back from Rega about the SPDIF isue and voltage, - will call again tomorrow.
                          There are plently of used Apollos around here (as I guess people upgrade to the Saturn) and sometimes you do see used Saturns here too, - usually when a user is upgrading to a Rega Isis.
                          
                          All the best,
                          Colin
                          

                          ---
                        • RE: Re: Quad 99 CDP2 - Davy 09:15:20 09/15/10 (0)
                          In Reply to: RE: Re: Quad 99 CDP2 posted by Satie on September 15, 2010 at 09:11:22

                          Hi Satie,
                          This is a bit early for you isn't it?! Or perhaps you make it to sleep yet?!

                          Ahh yes the Quad 99 CPD2. That's a bit odd from what about it suggests its very good and has the inputs as well, but perhaps the presentation is different from the Regas. And from what I have read although the 840C sounds good and has the inputs, The Quad is generally regarded as better sounding.
                          Here is another Apollo review in case you missed it (I edited my big post to put this link in)
                          http://www.audiotrends.com.au/pdf/Rega/Reviews/Rega_Apollo_CD_player-Stereo_Times.pdf

                          Cheers,
                          Colin
                          

                          ---

                          Edits: 09/15/10
                    • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 06:48:18 09/15/10 (11)
                      In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 14, 2010 at 15:12:09

                      Hi Satie,
                      Thanks for all the advice once again. As for the record cleaning I agree with you that leaving the stock Disco Antistat solution to air dry seems a bad idea, - you can even see the residue forming in places on the LP as white patches as the LP dries. So perhaps I should just try to wipe of the solution immediately after cleaning with a microfibre cloth? Do you think that would be a good idea to do alone or should I also do the distilled water rinsing step too?, and if so should I dry with microfibre again or let the LP air dry?

                      From all I’ve read the Rega Apollo is a very good CD player for reasonable money. And I’ve also read that whilst its very good everyone says the Rega Saturn) is amazing, and even well worth the extra money over the Apollo. (The Saturn is the replacement for the Jupiter, - it came out at the same time as the Apollo in 2006.)
                      I can see the prices of these in the USA are much higher than here. Like I say a used price of the Apollo is about £300 here (or even cheaper if you are lucky, - new price is £475) which I guess is quite a bit cheaper than in the USA. I will see if they are Multi voltage, - if so and you ever want to get one for cheaper then USA used price I’d be happy to look for one for you, - the cheapest/best place would be on UK hifi forum classifieds, posting a wanted ad. I am not sure if it puts out a corrected SPDIF signal, - its has digital out of course. Perhaps I should email or ring Rega and ask, - was do I ask exactly? Just is it send out a corrected SPDIF signal?, - and is there any other way to describe it.?
                      Here are a few reviews of the Apollo in case you didn’t see already.

                      http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue29/rega_apollo.htm
                      http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/606rega/
                      http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/678
                      http://www.audiotrends.com.au/pdf/Rega/Reviews/Rega_Apollo_CD_player-Stereo_Times.pdf

                      and Saturn
                      http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue35/rega_saturn.htm
                      Like I say the Saturn is only £898 new here. And I’ve sometimes seen them used for about £550-600.
                      Here is a comparison of Apollo vs Saturn
                      http://www.planetofsoundonline.com/articles/apollovssaturn.html

                      
                      I’ve ordered yet another Technics headshell (this time a new one that was going cheap/spare) as the other one I bought is now taken with a Ortofon MC15 Super II I just bought for cheap. I need the extra headshell to try the 304 on the Technics.
                      I had a MC15 Super II before for several years - it’s a surprisingly great cheap MC cartridge. Superb tracking ability, - better than both Troika and 304. It only skips up on the “torture test” 18dB 300Hz tone track on the Hi-Fi news test LP. Its sails through the next quietest 16dB test, and of course 14dB and 12dB are perfect too. The Troika can’t even make the 14dB track cleanly!, - buts its weird like I say it does not perform on test records but will track an LP with real music very well.

                      The MC15 super II is a litter similar in tone to the Troika but not quite as refined. Though it’s a reasonably small difference. Its also different in tone to the 304 (but I have yet to properly compare all of these cartridges on the Technics, - the 304 is still on the LP12 right now until I get my third (!) headshell for easy comparisons on the technics). BUT the really strong point about the MC15 (and I remember this from before) is it has great dynamics, - superior in my opinion to both the Troika and 304. It sounds really super on this Technics deck. I had one before on the LP12/Ittok I sold (the LP12 I described as being more dynamic). I am starting to think it was possibly the cartridge I was using at the time that was more dynamic and there is not so much differences in the LP12s I’ve had since!. This cartridge is discontinued sadly but they are often available used. This one has done about 30 hours and only cost me £50. It’s a peach. I’ll send you this too to try out along with the other 2. Will be very interested to hear what you think.
                      The Troika still sounds great on the Technics, - is still pretty dynamic (not quite a much as the Ortofon like I say) but it has slightly better tone and refinement. However I’d probably be happy to use either the Troika or MC15 II on the Technics permanently. No idea how the 304 will sound on the Technics yet and you are right it’s a bit silly speculating until I find out for sure how it compares to these other two carts on this deck.
                      So SORRY again for the further delay in sending the stuff, - just want to try out the 304 on the Technics first and compare to these two other carts. I must send you this Ortofon too , - its great in my opinion for such a cheap cartridge. My only complaint is that for some reason, it’s a lot more prone to static than the other two cartridges, - you can hear just before the stylus goes on the LP and just after you lift there is load of static there, - not sure why this is and the other two carts don’t do this. And I seem to remember my old MC15 being the same. Perhaps it’s the body material which attracts static or something?, - this cheaper MC15 is made out of plastic Noryl whereas the other two carts have aluminium bodies. It differs from the 304 and Troika in that is uses 2.2g tracking weight (so quite a bit heavier). It has Ortofon’s standard FL (fine line) stylus, (which though not the highest spec) is a great stylus in my opinion. Internal impedance is 7 ohms. And it has higher output than the other two carts, - its about 0.4mV, - about the same as the OC9. And believe me despite it being cheap it also sounds miles better than the OC9…… as its not clinical, harsh, crude and nasty sounding!!

                      I would love to try the higher end Ortofons like the Kontrpunkts, Rohmann, Cadenza etc. But it’s the price issue of course that we talked about! I’ve heard that the cheap Ortofons are still very good. It’s a shame the MC15II is discontinued, - as far as I can see its replacement, - the Ortofon Salsa, has exactly the same specs, - same body, same stylus, same electrical specs. Maybe its upgraded somehow though I am not sure, but its like 2.5 times the price the MC15 II was!. The Salsa is very well regarded too from what I have read on the internet, (though I can’t find a direct comparison of the two carts), - so its at the very least as good as the MC15II and perhaps slightly better. I might look for a used one to try as well.

                      One piece of news though, - I put the Audio Innovations T2 on Ebay on the off chance it might sell and it has!, - so pretty happy about that. After using the Head for a bit I would say the Head is more flexible from the loading point of view for the sort of MCs I am using right now and will be in the future. I mean it’s highly unlikely I will even buy a pricey Audionote IO with 0.05mV output which the T2 would really come in handy with.
                      Back for the Quad 99 preamp, - I think mine might be 240V only anyway, - am going to double check with Quad in case its switcable . Its is 240V only there is no point in me sending you it unless you have a 110-240V mains step up transformer to use with it.. If that’s the case I will look for a 110V compatible P/S for the 640P and defo send you that instead of the Quad to try.
                      Its MC input on the 640P works great with all these three cartridges. S/N is fine, - just a bit short on the gain front as its only got 55dB gain on the MC input. But I guess you can do your special and crank up the gain at the preamp to fix that issue!

                      Thanks for the info on the Benz cartridges, - not sure about he wood body idea if it induces colouration!. But yeah I’ve heard too that the latest Glider with the boron cantilever and new tip really is to end for pretty cheap. So it is a cart I would perhaps consider if I could get a new one for £400.

                      Many thanks for the info on the Japanese turntable and the link, - gonna do some serious research and see which are the heavyweights to look out for.

                      Thanks for the info on the Miloxane too, - it seems very hard to get hold of. Is Magnpean the only place I can get it? I might have missed the shipping deadline (due to the freezing thing). If so I might have to put a request up on the forum to buy some if anyone has any spare! The area I have cleaned with Acetone at both ends is not that big but like you say it makes sense to put the Miloxane on and I need to do it now before stapling the speaker up, - not point in stapling up now then having to get inside to do it later.

                      All the best,
                      Colin
                      
                      

                      ---

                      Edits: 09/15/10

                      • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 20:39:40 09/15/10 (10)
                        In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 15, 2010 at 06:48:18

                        
                        I had an4 MC20 go through my system a couple of decades ago. It was definitely the right kind of sound and it tracked well. I have an OM40 super MM as backup, Terrific cartridge for the $40 I paid. Got it from a batch of OEM cartridges when they discontinued, It was at least ½ off the normal street price. Dynamics are nearly as good as the Garrott but for the area where you go from loud to very loud, where it does not keep up. It sounds like a somewhat simplified version of the Garrott’s sound. If you didn’t hear more detail out of the better cartridge you would have never guessed that you are missing something. Re MC 15II – the static is caused by the noryl body. Nothing like two plastics to give you that pop.
                        I have an antistatic trick that sometimes works for me. Take a thin drain wire (30 gauge or smaller) and tape it to the front end of your tonearm and leave about 2” of loose wire to drag behind the cartridge. The other end is connected to your ground at the preamp/step up. Leave sufficient wire to avoid tensioning, and fix the middle of the wire to your table’s body to avoid jerking the arm if you snag the wire in the segment going to the preamp. Hopefully this works for you.
                        Re cleaning. Try it out. Wipe off the record and let it dry. Then do the next one with a rinse before drying. See if you get more static when you remove the Disco stuff. If not, just do it as a routine. I am very suspicious of these coatings. I doubt they would work well under any circumstances and am more convinced that they are ineffective with microline styli. In general, leave as little as possible of the fluid on the disc – whether a pure water or anything else. Use the microfiber cloth unless it is filthy.
                        Thanks for collecting the reviews on the Rega CD line. I’ll go over them when I get a chance, then hunt down someone to let me listen to them. I can call them myself for the question. The Dynaco is coming back from repair (blown grid resistor and subsequent tube). If you want to ask them, do ask if the SPDIF output is taken from the error corrected data from the memory buffer or directly from the CD reading.
                        BTW If I didn’t answer before I have many little transformers to supply DC. If I don’t have exactly the right voltage one, I can build a battery power supply. The 640P is dirt cheap here, $100-125, really a waste to send it over.
                        You are really very kind to send me this stuff to learn about, please don’t apologise for the delay. Its actually a relief to find out the T2 is gone, off to a new home. I was beginning to worry of being overwhelmed by the number of combinations of step ups carts and phono stages, I was going to put together a combinatorial calc spreadsheet for the number of combinations.
                        Re Benzes, I don’t know that the woody color comes from the wood, because the lower end glider and MC had no wood components and still had the same tone. In any case, I stopped looking at Benzes a long time ago, so I am not current in my personal listening to these carts. The reviews are uniformly strong, so it may not be as distinct a coloration as it used to be. And, for what its worth, it is not a bad coloration to have, as it does fill out some of what the recording production chain takes out of the music starting at the microphones on to the mic preamps, mixing console and effects, A/D and digital processing with too few bits or multiple copies from one analog tape to another. Finally the mishaps of production.
                        I spent whole weeks at the Vintage Knob, it was very interesting and opened my eyes. These classics are now so expensive as to make the megalithically priced modern tables seem like values on the used market.
                        I don’t know where else you can get miloxane, but I can suggest the chemical lab supply companies. I don’t know the British ones, but here we have Sigma/Aldrich and Baxter, among others, and Granger.
                        
                        BTW some of my posts are done at one time and posted later on when time allows me to get a glimpse of what I wrote and finish it. Part of it is that I use 3 different computers through the day- though there is no more than 30 feet between them, they are dedicated to different functions and are in different rooms that are used in different times of the day. Often I start writing in the post window of one and move on to work on another, and don't have the text there to continue writing, so I only get back to it some hours later.
                        
                        
                        

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                        • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 09:28:13 09/16/10 (9)
                          In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 15, 2010 at 20:39:40

                          Hi Satie,
                          So you had an Ortofon MC20, - I guess that was on a very different deck, - was going to ask you how it stakes up against the OM40 but I guess it would be very hard to say if it was a long time ago. Sounds like you got the OM40 for a nice deal, - it has a very good stylus I gather, so makes a good backup cartride for you.
                          Thanks for the tip Re the static with the MC15. I will try you suggestion if I can find some suitable wire. So do you mean you drag the wire on the record behind the cartridge (coming from the heashell) or have I misunderstood (as usual)
                          Will try it but I guess this static problem is the downfall of cheap Ortofon MCs. The Performance of the MC15 is very good though, - the tip is very good and the generator decent, so it seems they have just cut costs on the body. The MC10, Samba and Salsa use the same Noryl body, so I guess i will avoid them too in the future as in hindsight its it would preferable not to have to try to get rid of this static.
                          It might be a good idea for me to look for a MC25FL, MC20 or MC30 Supreme. There is a shop in Australia called “Speakerbits” who have an Ebay shop. They have recently been selling some older Ortofon MC like this that have been actually recently made by Ortofon to finish off using old parts they still have. I might try to get a MC25FL or a supreme, - they told me some more are coming up for auction the week after next. Then even had some MC2000IIs.
                          
                          Back to the MC15, I guess it might even be possible to rebody it or nude it, - I might well have my old broken one someone, -if so I will have a closer look at it to see if its possible.
                          
                          But yeah I would say the same for me as well, - The Ortofons do have the right sort of sound for me, - far nicer than the crude OC9 but a little more dynamic than the Denon DL304. The DL304 has a bit more transparency, transient response and delicacy but I think the dynamics are not quite as good. But when I get this new headshell I will be able to say for certain as bear in mind I have not heard the Dl304 on the more dynamic sounding Technics deck yet.
                          The MC15 though is certainly making me think about getting a pricier Ortofon. Not the current range as they are too expensive, - will have a look around. Might buy one from Speakerbits if I can and also I’ve seen used Jubilees and Rohmanns come up here for quite cheap from time to time, which are both good cartridges. Will keep an eye out. Used Kontrapunkts turn up here too.
                          
                          Not tried a Benz but I might do in the future. I guess it possible the naked Gilder does not have so much of this coloration as its not got a wood body. It does seem a good buy to try sometime.
                          Wanted to ask, - did you ever try/hear a Koetsu? Do the wood bodies they use on those have the same intention of adding this same type of coloration as the Benz or are the Koestus different?
                          
                          Will try out the cleaning and this time wipe both the fluid and water off, - I guess I better at least rinse the records I’ve already done in distilled water again and wipe off as well.
                          
                          Like I say I might well buy an used Apollo quite soon anyway to test out, - If I do get one I will find out if its 110V compatible/switchable, - if so I’d be happy to send it to you for a listen if you can;t find one to try there. BTW I know the 840C is multi voltage, but the 740C is not for example. I will ask about the SPDIF directly off the disc or from the buffer. When you say “corrected” is preferable, - which of those two scenarios is that?!
                          
                          I have ordered some 30NF adhesive from Magnepan, - they told me they do not use Miloxane anymore. I gather 30NF is very similar. So I will use it just on the ends where I’ve removed the original miloxane and 3m. I guess it would actually be better to rebuild the whole of the bass panel,- removing everything with acetone and using DAP and 30NF to redo it. But that would be so time consuming. I am hoping my repair at the ends will hold up!
                          
                          T2 has been sent off, - The head is much suited better for the MCs I have anyway. I emailed sent an email to EAR to ask TDP what the exact step up ratios for the inputs on the Head transformer are, but I had no reply yet. I am sure two of them are 1:10 and 1:20. the other must be between 1:13 and 1:15. When I have time I’ll calculate the loading values for you before you receive the carts! Its works out to be a lot of different possible values if you factor in the various loading options on the Melos too! But I guess the best thing to do anyway is just try the options and write down which combos work well. I guess the MC15 would work fine straight into the Melos if the output level is similar to the OC9.
                          
                          All the best,
                          Colin
                          
                          

                          ---

                          • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 13:15:43 09/16/10 (8)
                            In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 16, 2010 at 09:28:13

                            On a Rega3- MC20 was spectacular, but I "upgraded" from OC7 to OC9 MC20 went back to its owner. What the OC9 did is put dynamic snap into the Rega and extend it to the extreme FR more pronounced way. Resolution of the speakers did not allow the crude nature of its sound to come through.
                            
                            Re drain wire idea has to have some experimentation as to where to position it for best effect. you can try a tiny tab of adhesive tape on the side of the cart, the headshell, or end of the tonearm. Yes, the wire should be dragging behind the cart.
                            BTW always wipe the record on the platter with a carbon fiber brush before playing while grounding yourself or the brush.
                            Finally, if all fails, use distilled or RO water on the record while playing. It kills the static. When I was doing that, the PITA was getting the played record to dry without collecting dust. so I took two 12" squares of cardboard and stapled microfiber towels to each, and placed the played record between them (horizontally) to dry. When flipping sides I had not had a problem on the plastic mats. Even the sticky Oracle mat didn't mind the water.
                            
                            Ok What is a cheap Rohman or Jubilee? $1000? $500? Wasn't the 2000 II predecessor to the Jubilee? I'll check out the old Speakerbits auction. I found some of its pages quoted on other sites. But quite frankly, though I am not at all current on MC carts, I like my Garrott too much to seriously consider anything else, here is one review - the version I have:
                            http://www.stereotimes.com/cart081402.shtml
                            http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/prod135.htm
                            The new version:
                            http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/prod474.htm
                            
                            Quite frankly, the combination of dynamics and detail are just out of this world considering what they cost, when you take out the need for a stepup the effective cost of using them is tremendously low compared to low output MCs. The Garrott with the high output and particular immunity to surface noise and artifacts and spectacular tracking makes me doubt I would ever move away to an MC. My very limited recent comparisons show up Ortofon and Lyra cartridges costing more than double. I am blanking out on the Ortofon, but it looks like the Kontrapunkt series without being one. Noise was the first most obvious advantage to the Garrott, dynamics were better, and only the highest frequencies were on par or had a slight edge to the MCs. Since I would categorically reject anything over $1000 used/demo and only go beyond $500 for something special - like a newer version of the FGS.
                            
                            From
                            http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ms/ms2_2.html (Merrill Scillia TT)
                            " As mentioned earlier, I had on hand the same Hadcock 228 Export arm outfitted with both a Garrott Bros. Optim FGS Cartridge and the Ortofon Kontrapunkt H. As I swapped arm tubes in favor of the much less expensive Garrott Brothers Optim FGS cartridge, it was easy to separate the contributions of the thrice-the-price Ortofon and MS2. The Ortofon is certainly the better cartridge. It excels at smoothness and musicality, making the Garrott Brothers sound rougher, grainier and less fluid. Still and for its asking price, the MS2 elevated the inexpensive Garrott Bros. cartridge to unanticipated heights. The combination had the same gravitas as the Ortofon and while it was grainier and a little rougher than before, it still sounded awfully good, exhibiting the same list of strengths, albeit to a slightly lesser degree. Only after a direct comparison was I made to (almost) feel as though I was suddenly slumming it with the cheaper Garrott. And when I dragged into the room my highly modified AR and installed the same Hadcock and Garrott Bros. cartridge to remove the MS2 from the equation... well, suddenly I wasn't feeling so good about the AR. Even with the Ortofon installed, the AR's bass suddenly sounded thicker, slightly congealed and opaque. The soundstage shrunk dramatically and everything on that stage became less illuminated as musical presence was greatly diminished."
                            
                            I think a little arm damping goes a long way to tame the roughness of the
                            minimally damped Garrott, because there was not that sort of roughness on my setup compared to the other carts. It is an order of magnitude smoother than the OC9 (which is a very low standard) besides, I would not give up the quiet, dynamics, or detail for smoothness.
                            
                            Re MC15 I would definitely not look to alter the MC15 because of the static problem. It is way too nice a cartridge to risk ruining. Even the extreme solution of using water takes just a minute - and it is after the play.
                            
                            Re Rega CDs, the preference is to have the memory buffer feeding the SPDIF to get the best data, as corrected by the Apollo. Though it seems the output stage is rather good so a DAC might not be uch of a benefit. But the best playback I know of is from CDs ripped to computer with perfect copy software (exactcopy?) and copied onto USB memory sticks plugged into a dac or a DVD player feeding a dac.
                            
                            I do not know anything about the 30NF adhesive, I can look it up, but considering it is now Magnepan's choice compound, I would simply use that regardless of what else I might learn about it.
                            
                            

                            ---

                            • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 16:39:13 09/16/10 (7)
                              In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 16, 2010 at 13:15:43

                              Ortofon?, Now you asked for it!, - this is going to be long!
                              
                              There are a LOT of different models!, - so I am not surprised you are confused!.
                              
                              They line up was reasonably stable from about 1995 to 2005.
                              It consisted,
                              Noryl bodied: -
                              
                              MC10 super II, MC15 Super II,
                              
                              Al bodied: -
                              
                              MC10 Supreme, MC20 Supreme MC30 Supreme (same heavy aluminium body, same generators, just different styluses),
                              Rohmann (introduced around 1996).
                              Jubilee (Introduced in 1999).
                              
                              
                              This was for the UK, - in the USA and elsewhere the MC10, MC20, and MC30 Supreme models were not available and instead the, MC20 and MC30 Super II models were available.
                              Differences between MC20/30 supremes and supers were that the Supremes had heavier Al bodies (11.7g) and higher output (0.5mV), whereas the super IIs had lower output (0.2mV) and a lighter 9g Al body. Also the MC20 and MC30 Super IIs seem to have higher spec styluses than the MC20 and MC30 Supreme. WHY on earth some were available in certain countries and some elsewhere I am not sure.
                              Its confusing too as the budget MC10 super II and pricier MC10 Supreme are two different cartridges that share the same elliptical stylus, but one has a plastic body and the other a heavy. aluminium body.
                              
                              As for stylus types: -
                              Plastic bodies carts: -
                              
                              MC10 Super II had elliptical stylus
                              MC15 Super II had the basic Fine line stylus
                              
                              Al bodies carts
                              
                              MC25E had an elliptical stylus
                              MC25FL had the basic fine line stylus
                              MC10 Supreme had an elliptical stylus
                              MC20 Supreme had the basic fine line stylus
                              MC30 Supreme had a super fine line stylus
                              MC20 Super II had a FRG80 stylus
                              MC30 Super II had a Nude Replicant stylus
                              Kontrpunkts had super fine line (A), FRG80 (B and C).
                              Rohmann had an Ortho line sylus
                              Jubilee had a Shibata Stylus
                              
                              
                              The Kontrpunkts were introduced in around 2001, - then discontinued quite recently. The Supremes ran alongside the Punkts for quite a while, but the Kontrpunkts were slightly higher spec than the Supremes.
                              
                              It seems the MC2000, MC3000, MC500 MC7500 were pre 1995 or so they are older, - they were the top models. The Rohmann effectively replaced them as the main top model. Looking a the output level of the MC2000II its not a viable option, - its like a Audionote IO, - 0.05mV output!. The MC3000 is 0.1mV output so pretty low too. MC 7500 is better at 0.2mV.
                              
                              The Rohmann was introduced in 1996 and was named after Ortofon's former MD who past away around that time. It was based around the top previous MC7500 model,, but it was priced cheaper. Output was a reasonable sensible 0.25mV so more practical than the previous top models. Then in 1999 the Jubilee was introduced and was run alongside the Rohmann for many years. The Jubilee was the higher spec model though, better stylus/tracking and higher output at 0.35mV. It cost $1850, £1200 in the UK. It was also the blueprint for the Kontrpunkt models, - indeed the body looks the same as the Kontropuntks. Rohmann was about £1000 new in the UK, - I guess about $1400-1500 in the US.
                              
                              Anyway the top Rohmann and Jubilee were available right up to about 2008 so they ran for many many years. The Windfeld replaced them as the top model. Now there is also a new top “A90” model as well.
                              
                              In around 2005 the MC10, 20, 30 Supreme series was discontinued and the Rondos (Red. Blue, Bronze) were introduced, - effectively replacing them. Similar specs. The Kontrapunkts continued to run at the same time as the Rondos. The Rondos are still current.
                              
                              At the lower MC end the Noryl bodied MC10 and MC15 super IIs were replaced by the Samba and Salsa in 2005 but these were double the price! Like I say I couldn’t see any spec differences! The Samba and Salsa have recently been discontinued and replaced with the Vivo red and blue models!
                              
                              Recently the Cadenzas have replaced the Kontrapuntks!
                              
                              So as you can see its very complicated, - they don’t seem to phase out all products and replace them at the same time, - some are kept and other ranges replaced! Very confusing indeed.
                              
                              I have often seen the Rohmann and Jubilee for sale used here, - for around £300-400 quite oftehn which is a good deal. I will keep an eye out for one. Either would be a good model to try as they were the top spec ones. I suppose it could always be retipped by Expert stylus in the future.
                              
                              I think a MC20 or MC30 supreme would be a good cartridge to try too, - sometimes they go very cheap. And the Chepaer MC25FL would be a good model to try too, - ran for many years and a lot were sold. All of these three and others have recently been available brand new at Speakerbits on Ebay for very good prices.
                              
                              MC 25 FL
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220649416825
                              
                              MC30 Supreme
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220644603943
                              
                              MC20 Supreme
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220649008586
                              
                              Kontrapunkt C
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250689258620
                              
                              Rohmann
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220640297754
                              
                              MC15 Super II
                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220661500445
                              
                              
                              I think these are very good deals as like I say they are new, recently manufactured by Ortofon from spare parts they had..
                              Here is where I found it out, - when I was looking up on google about the MC15 Super II I recently bought. The OP in this thread rang up Ortofon and they confirmed they have been re manufacturing these older MCs from unused spare parts.
                              
                              http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=228706
                              
                              These newly manufactured “old” MC carts are much cheaper than the current range, - I mean the MC30 Supreme is selling at speakerbits for £250 or so but a new Rondo Bronze is £650. And I THINK its virtually the same cartridge. If I was to get one my eye would be on a MC25FL, either MC20 or MC30 Supreme, and the Rohmann. Any of them are a great deal. The cheaper MC15 super II is excellent sounding too like I say (and has the same stylus as the MC25FL and MC20 Supreme) but the plastic body/static issue would prefer me buying one of the higher spec aluminium body models in the future, - starting with the MC25FL as being the cheapest one. The MC25FL and MC20/30 Supreme have higher output too at 0.5mV.
                              I would avoid the ones with Elliptcal syluses personally, - the MC10 Super II and MC25E. Only going for fine line or better.
                              
                              If you look at speakerbits feedback you can see how many they’ve sold recently
                              http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=speakerbits&&iid=220649008586&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller
                              I asked them for a heads up on when the next ones will be up for auction and they said not this Monday but the Monday after.
                              
                              
                              So yeah loads of Ortofon models, - same goes for the Ortofon SPU models, - the old and the current ones. I have no idea about them but they are supposed to be very good as well.
                              
                              Which MC20 did you have as there are at LEAST 4 different versions?! Was it an aluminium body type like either of these three
                              MC20 Super II http://drspark.dreamwiz.com/c_spark/d11/ortofon-mc20-super2.jpg
                              MC20 Super II black model http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/30/a0/ef9b_35.JPG
                              MC20 Supreme http://www.asm-audio.de/WebRoot/Store3/Shops/61684291/4BF3/651E/35DF/4AC9/A5F9/C0A8/29BB/78A9/Ort_MC_MC20_supreme_89mm_300_m.jpg
                              
                              Or a plastic blue body type MC20 like this?
                              http://www.vinylengine.com/images/cartridgedb/ortofon_mc20.jpg
                              This one is very old now! Must be pre 1990.
                              
                              So anyway I do not know about all the models myself no doubt but I have a reasonbly good idea having kept a reasonable interested in Ortofon carts over the years, so I hope this gives you a reasonable outline. Let me know if you need any more info. . Looking at your situation I think a newly manufactured model like the MC25FL or MC20/30 Supreme from Speakerbits would be a great choice as a very good MC to have for cheap. Decent output 0.5mV (so you could run into the Melos straight) and very cheap price for the quality you are getting. I wonder if these carts are selling elsewhere at all or only at Speakerbits?
                              
                              In the meantime, - if you can put up with the static issue, I’ll send you the MC15 Super II to try with the other carts. For the money it’s a real peach. Slightly different from the ones I just mentioned above as it much have a different generator as the output is slightly lower, and noryl body of course. Though like I say the Fine line stylus is the same as the one on the MC25FL and MC20 Supreme. The MC30 Supreme has a slightly finer fine line stylus and a slightly more extended top end (though we are talking from extension from 30Khz to 40Khz here)!. The Jubilee extends to 60Khz with that Shibata stylus has a very good tracking figure. Kontrpunkts and others with the Fritz gyper styluses are somewhere in between these figures.
                              
                              Anyway the Garrot does look very nice from the links you sent me, - thanks for that. So did you buy this FGS version new?! (quite pricey) or was it lightly used?
                              I can see how a top spec MM would have several advantages over MC, - better tracking, very low surface noise etc and better dynamics too. The crunch would be the top end I guess, - the MCs most probably having an advantage in linearity and extension up there. So there is a balance of extension, dynamics, traking, surface noise and other factors going on here.
                              See how you get on with three MCs which are significantly cheaper than the Garrot. I will be very interested to hear which of these 3 MC you prefer and if still prefer the Garrot over them. I guess the Garrot will be more dynamic, have better tracking etc so it will be interesting to see if the different strengths of the MCs appeal to you or not. I would say for sure these MCs do sound more dynamic on the Technics DD turntable than on the belt drive LP12 (and I guess the belt drives you’ve had too I guess). So the Technics will help the MCs on the dynamics front I am sure. I know the Garrot is very detailed but I am sure you will find the Denon DL304 (in particular) highly detailed too and possibly more so, - and likely more extended and transparent but not as dynamic and a bit more prone to surface noise. So I’ll be interested see how you get on.
                              
                              Thanks a lot for the wet record tip, - sounds good!, will try it - and thanks for the info on the drain. So when you say try adhesive tape, - do you mean with the drain wire or is this something separate?!!
                              
                              I have yet to try the damping foil!, - will do at the weekend, - so how many foil layers do you use? One, or more? And what sort of tape do you use to hold it on? I have not got the silver cables yet, - will install them later when they arrive.
                              
                              All the best,
                              Colin
                              
                              

                              ---

                              • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 20:40:03 09/16/10 (6)
                                In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 16, 2010 at 16:39:13

                                I got the garrott at 50% off or better as a Demo from either the Needle Doctor or another online retailer - maybe Audio Advisor. I got the full warranty and the associate said they didn't get to play it much because nobody knew about it.
                                
                                I had (long term loan) the original MC20 Super and it was tried on the Rega which I had in ca 1989-90.
                                
                                The one I heard recently I don't remember its name but it looked like a Kontrapunkt series, but I know it wasn't a Kontrapunkt. The owner kept referring to it as "the Ortofon" or "the Ortofon MC". It was metalic and did not have "Kontrapunkt" printed on its broadside. The table was not in good lighting and I could not even tell if it was a gold tone or a silver tone to the metal and the Ortofon name was on a color I could not distinguish. It was on a VPI Scout. It was a low output cartridge.
                                
                                Re drain wire, I was referring to attachment with a small bit of adhesive tape - with a dog ear to cover the adhesive on one corner so it can be more easily removed.
                                
                                Thanks for the Ortofon Roundup. My mind is stuck in the early 90s and the mid 2000s as far as cartridges go, since those were the times I was in the market for something serious and new.
                                
                                I heard a Koetsu Black on a VPI Aries but it was hooked up to a hodge podge of equipment in the used room at the dealer's so though it had a musical and communicative gestalt, it was not terribly good at anything so far as what that system could portray. So members of my jury are not prepared to go for a vote.
                                

                                ---

                                • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 06:37:44 09/18/10 (4)
                                  In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 16, 2010 at 20:40:03

                                  Hi Satie,
                                  I’ve got the new Technics headshell, - will try with the Denon 304 and compare to the other carts on the Technics on Sunday for sure. Really look forward to it and I will try the damping on the arm too, - how many sheets of Al foil should I use?
                                  Will then pack the stuff up and ship to you sometime next week.
                                  
                                  The other news was a found a very generous guy on this forum (John Plummer) who has some 3.3Rs and was not using the passive external crossover as he got a Marchard and went active with them. He was willing to sell the crossover boxes to me for very cheap which is great, - they are already on their way to me. So they will be good for comparisons and setting up my active setup and for convenient, eay single amp use. He only charged me $90 for them inclusive with shipping!, - much better than the $450 it would have cost me from Magnepan! I don’t think you could even build them with similar quality parts (even though I know they are cheap parts) for $90 and those inductors are unusual values anyway, - it would have been very hard to get accurate values for them.
                                  
                                  I am so glad you steered me towards proper record cleaning and away from using the Clearaudio elixir stylus cleaner, - that stuff is sin, - I had given up using my Turntable as it was so annoying, - having to use that solution on the stylus every five minutes!. The high frequencies went after 5 minutes if you didn’t re use it, and using the stiff brush on its own after 5 min did not make any difference – you had to use more solution to get the high frequencies back.
                                  Your method of cleaning and using water for a dirty stylus with brush are far better, - so much longer lasting! I can now enjoy records again! I had been using the Elixir for about 2 years +! I can now start buying records again!
                                  
                                  Any ideas about which Ortofon you heard recently?
                                  I contacted a guy who had the MC15 II and upgraded to the MC25FL, - he said both are very good but the MC25FL is definitely a bit better and well worth the extra, - so that’s the one I will try to go for if I can get one from Speakerbits if the Ebay price is OK. Would dearly love to get a Supreme instead but will probably not have enough cash at the time! The MC25FL should be nearly half the price of a Supreme and a real bargain.
                                  
                                  All the best,
                                  Colin
                                  
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 07:35:58 09/19/10 (3)
                                    In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 18, 2010 at 06:37:44

                                    Re damping with wire in shielded tape.
                                    
                                    1. one layer of foil is used on top of the double sided tape. The cld effect (damping) comes from having 4 - 6 layers (depending on whether you seal with a non-conductive top layer).
                                    2. the tape is white - not transparent, the transparent double sided tape should not be used since it has no backing material and is composed entirely of acrylic adhesive.
                                    3. The tape is integrated with the wires!! and the adhesive does not work as well a second time, so wait for your wires to come in, and then prepare the integrated wire/damping tape.
                                    4. there is no need to spiral wind the tape around the arm, it was overkill and looks a mess. Just measure the arm and score the tape to allow application along the line of the tonearm.
                                    
                                    I am sorry you got into a product that didn't complement your usage habits, good riddance to that. I hope the simple method I gave you provides you with sufficiently good results and you get to keep your high frequency content.
                                    
                                    Congrats on the acquisition of the external Crossover. Very nice of him to give it to you.
                                    
                                    I was going over pics from the Ortofon site and the super/supreme pics you showed me on the other computer so will delay a reply to a time I am using that one. But so far I have not seen anything that is exactly right. It occurred to me that they may have sold OEM Monster sigma cartridges without the markings on a model switchover. If they did that then it would have come out like a kontrapunkt without any color or marking.
                                    
                                    I will look at those carts on the UK ebay - which I assume they will use again. BTW, I do purchase stuff from LPgear great online store.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 11:46:40 09/19/10 (2)
                                      In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 19, 2010 at 07:35:58

                                      Hi Satie,
                                      I'll let you know when the Speakerbits Ortofons are back on Ebay, - they will probably be visible on Ebay USA as well.
                                      Thanks for the info on the arm damping/rewire, but I appear to be a bit lost again. When you say
                                      "1. one layer of foil is used on top of the double sided tape. The cld effect (damping) comes from having 4 - 6 layers (depending on whether you seal with a non-conductive top layer).
                                      2. the tape is white - not transparent, the transparent double sided tape should not be used since it has no backing material and is composed entirely of acrylic adhesive."
                                      
                                      So do you mean first put some white double sided tape on the arm? and then put one layer of foil on top. But if thats so I am lost when you say the bit about 4-6 layers? How do you put the tape on, - in long strips down the arm tube or wrap around it circularly?!
                                      
                                      All the best,
                                      Colin
                                      
                                      

                                      ---

                                      • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Satie 01:22:09 09/20/10 (1)
                                        In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 19, 2010 at 11:46:40

                                        Not that easy
                                        
                                        First cut a sheet of Al foil 2" longer than your intended cable length, stretch it out on a flat surface, vertical or horizontal. If you want an extra drain wire, measure out a length about 3" longer than the aluminum foil, and tape one end to the surface on which the Al foil is affixed about 1" above the end of the foil, and run the drain wire to the end of the aluminum foil and tape it in place with a small tab of tape.
                                        Then unspool the necessary length of double sided tape leaving the waxy paper on.
                                        Align the tape with the stretched Al foil 1" from the top of the foil - rouhgly 2/3 of the tape on one side of the drain wire and 1/3 on the other, and and glue them together, smooth the tape out.
                                        
                                        Prepare two twisted pairs of fine insulated wire 30 gauge or smaller to use as the tonearm wire. Solder or crimp on the cartridge tags at one end. You will need 30% more wire than the required final length of the finished cable. Make 6-8 twists per inch
                                        
                                        Peel the waxy paper off the double sided tape. Do not discard it yet.
                                        
                                        Stretch one twisted pair over the tape holding one end 1-2" beyond the top edge of the tape, and align the twisted pair about 1/8" from the tape's edge. The cartridge tags should clear the edge of the tape by 1.5-2". Glue them together and go on to the next twisted pair, which will be affixed 1/4" further into the tape. These are placed on the Plside of the tape opposite the drain wire.
                                        
                                        Place the waxy paper back on the sticky side of the tape to cover the wires too. With an Al foil cutting knife or sharp scissors carefully cut the excess Al foil from the sides of the tape. This is easier if the tape is still mounted and with angled scissors.
                                        
                                        Unmount the tape assembly.
                                        
                                        On the tonearm - Measure the distance from the base of the cartridge pins to the bend of the arm closest to the cartridge, and the distance to the second bend.
                                        
                                        On the cable - Measure the distance from the ends of the cartridge clips to the measure of the bend, add 1/2" and cut into the tape up to the drain wire. measure up to the second bend and make a similar cut. These are preliminary and may need to be adjusted when the tape is glued onto the tonearm.
                                        
                                        On the end of the cable intended to attach to the RCA plugs:
                                        Rearrange the twisted pairs to run 1/4" from the edge of the tape from either side for the last 6-8 inches of the tape. Cut in the middle along the tape to 6 inches into it to split it into two twisted pairs mounted onto the two strip of tape.. Take hold of the drain wire and pull it out of the tape so that its last length of 8+ inches is free of it. Fold the separated tape halves over their respective twisted pairs.
                                        
                                        At this point, attach the RCA plugs to the ends of the wires in the twisted pairs. You will need to arrange some strain relief at the RCA entry.
                                        
                                        Adjusting the tape and gluing it onto the tonearm.
                                        
                                        At the cartridge end
                                        The excess aluminum foil and the drain wire should be trimmed and folded back onto the wire side of the tape. The cartridge lead portion should reach to the end of the heasdshell collar and the aluminum foil should allow a non sticky strip at the end of the tape to allow turning the collar and moving it a little backwards.
                                        
                                        Now we start gluing from the first segment -between the headshell collar and the first bend, peel back the wax paper to the first cut and position the tape roughly symmetrically, and glue the cable down. Smooth the tape out and test the fit of the next segment between the two cuts - adjust the cuts and the position of the wires . Peel back the wax paper and glue the segment onto the arm between the two bends.
                                        
                                        Test the fit of the tape to the small tonearm segment from the bend to the bearings. Make a cut up to the drain wire at a location equivalent to 1/2" in front of the bearing. Peel the tape to the cut and glue the tape onto the tonearm wand and bearing housing stub.
                                        
                                        Lay out the cable so that it can be folded conveniently. Remove a 2-3 inch segment at a time from the tonearm onwards, align the edges and fold the tape so the glue sides attach sealing the wires inside. Continue to the split of the RCA jacks and their leads.
                                        
                                        At this point the cable is complete and we attach it to the turntable body.
                                        
                                        Arrange a segment of the cable into an upside U shape from the bearings to the a spot on the back of the turntable body about 3-4 inches down from the tonearm. It should be just tall enough that the lid does not squash it significantly. The cable should have the minimal twist possible. Using a strong adhesive tape fix the cable to the back side of the turntable at the chosen spot.
                                        
                                        Select a spot on the cable about 1" up from the tonearm and make a small cut at the spine of the cable. Manipulate the wires inside the tape close together and cut some more of the tape to increase the cut's length. If necessary, make a loop of sewing thread and tie it in the cut to keep the wires more tightly together.
                                        
                                        Now turn the antiskate to 0, put on a record, raise the arm cue and let the arm down onto the record (power should be off) and watch for the arm to fall down without any sideways movement. If there is movement towards the center, deepen the cut slightly and tighten the wires together a bit more. Make sure that the aluminum backing remains continuous.
                                        
                                        Now attach the RCA plugs put on a record, set up the tonearm in the holder and turn on the turntable. Play the record and note how the arm is moving, whether you are getting skating or back skipping. If you do, then the notch in the cable is probably still too stiff and you may want to tighten the wires together a bit more, and increase the extent of the cut. .
                                        

                                        ---

                                        • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 07:25:47 09/20/10 (0)
                                          In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 20, 2010 at 01:22:09

                                          Thanks a lot Satie,
                                          Wow thats a long guide. Gonna have to study this hard before my arm cable comes.
                                          Started on my second 3.3R delam repair and am half way through.
                                          All the best,
                                          Colin
                                          

                                          ---
                                • RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more - Davy 21:07:46 09/16/10 (0)
                                  In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 16, 2010 at 20:40:03

                                  Hi Satie,
                                  Just a quickie,
                                  Hoep the ortofon roundup helped you out/gave you some ideas of the range over the past 15 years.
                                  Maybe the cart you heard was a Cadenza?, - the recent sucessors to the Kontrapunkts, - did it look like any of these?
                                  http://www.ortofon.com/products/cartridges/moving-coil/cadenza
                                  
                                  The only other two Ortofons that have the Kontrapunkt type body are the Jubilee
                                  http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=100
                                  
                                  and the more recent top of the range Windfeld.
                                  http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=101
                                  
                                  Did the Ortofon you heard recently sound nice?
                                  Like I say for bang for the buck a MC25FL or MC20/30 Supreme from Speakerbits can't be beat I reckon, - I for one will be keeping an eye out when the next lot are listed week after next./
                                  
                                  Thanks for the drain wire/tape info, - Doh!
                                  
                                  Wanted to just PM you about something too, - hope that's OK.
                                  
                                  Those online USA cartridge retailer can be very cheap, - I got the OC9 very cheap, - for like £150 or something, - from LPgear I think it was.
                                  
                                  Cheers,
                                  Colin
                                  
                                  
                                  
                                  
                                  
                                  

                                  ---

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