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204.15.62.29
Non-fatiguing is the key term here. Not overly concerned with price, although cheaper is better ... TIA ...
Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone
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Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
Wait for the upgradeitis crowd to dump their Gustard R26 R2R DACs to get the new R30, might get a bargain.
But be careful with "modded" units...
The SMSL D300 and VMV D2r both use a Rohm BD34301EKV dac chip that is used in the much more expensive Luxman cd players and dac. The Rohm chip was designed with the objective of reproducing classical music accurately. If you're looking for non fatiguing at a reasonable price, they may be worth auditioning.
Ayre Codex. No pre-ringing and only 1 cycle post ring. Proprietary filter. Meticulous design by Charley Hansen and crew.
Thanks,
barondla
One word and it's not "plastics": Geshelli.
They have so many options. I have the J3, which I recommend. Almost everyone says it beats the J2. Of course, if price is a major factor, the J2 has a good reputation.
The J3 allows switching opamps. That could allow to you customize the sound. I went with the stock opamps: TI OPA1656. Excellent sound. It transformed my system.
My real interest was the Sparkos 2590. The 2590s aren't listed but they are available from Geshelli. They ship separately because they can come loose in transport and cause damage. Switching them is no big deal. There's a video on YouTube by Geshelli showing how to do it.
The Burson V7 Vivid Pro is supposed to rival the Sparkos 2590. I haven't heard the Burson.
The Sparkos 2590 was better than the TI OPA1656 but not dramatically. I could easily have lived with the TI and been very happy. The basic stock opamps make the J3 a remarkable bargain.
I have yet to read anything negative about the J3, given its price.
I'm not completely clear what is meant by fatiguing, perhaps because I've never experienced it. I do know that I never get tired of listening to the J3, so it must not be fatiguing.
Let me know if you have any questions. And feel free to e-mail me if you want.
Good luck.
Flyinsky AD1865 R2R tube DAC. Amazon $225. Totally fits both bang for the buck and relaxing.
I don't really understand 'fatiguing' either in the context of listening to music. I suppose it's a real thing for some people but when I listen to music, even for a very long time non-stop, it is very enjoyable and never 'fatiguing'.
that pretty much describes most sound reinforced venues. Hard and edgy sound that grates on ones hearing even if not played at ear bleeding levels.Even comparatively tame musical events at the large university auditorium fit that bill. I can take only so much before needing to leave.
Fortunately even modestly priced gear today doesn't do that to me like it did in the 70s. Think Crown amplification. I remain amazed at the value my $200 Fosi integrated/DAC provides. With smooth sounding results using commodity TPA3255 and 5532 chips. Sins of omission are easier to forgive. :)
Edits: 05/28/25 05/29/25
My personal definition of "fatigue" is that it sets in over a period of time. I have never experienced this fatigue in the context of listening to music probably because I will quickly get rid of any offending equipment or source material.Older Bryston amps in decades past would be fatiguing if given the chance. The immediate ear bleed they inflict will hit you way before fatigue sets in prompting you to shut it down fast. Decades ago I auditioned Bryston and Classe and chose the latter.
On the other hand, some overly smooth and polite gear will snooze me to sleep with boredom. Striking a balance for ones preference is the trick.
Edits: 05/29/25
That's a useful point of view. Thanks. It helps explain the term.
I was thinking, "What the hell are they talking about?".
I continue to put "Fatiguing" right up there with "PRAT". ;-)
I have never experienced "fatiguing" in the context of listening to music. I can get to "toe tapping" with a transistor radio but I prefer the setup in my listening room.
My Denafrips Pontus II and MHDT Labs Orchid DACs both offer a relaxed, non-fatiguing sound, unlike my Benchmark DAC3.
You could go with a Schiit Bifrost 2/64. It's a non fatiguing sound with exemplary resolution and sound staging. This into a tube system.
You have some pretty nice gear according to your profile - some are my all time favorites in their class like the Cary SLP-05 and the Cary CD 303T. The SLP-05 was my all time favorite tube preamp and the 303T was my favorite vacuum tube CDP which I thought was better than some of Cary's higher-end tube CDP's. Nice! P.S. The only Cary piece that you have that didn't work out for me was the Rocket 88. I think it was a little under powered for my needs at the time.
Agree, the SLP05 is something of a special sound that is magical. The 303t is mainly used with a laptop into the DAC as the disc drawer is unpredictable. The Bifrost is being used with a Cary (AES) 6sn7 Pre into a Dennis Had Inspire single ended amp that can use about any octal power tube for a variety of sound signatures. The Bifrost is on par with the 303t and cost a lot less than the older Cary.
I think I mixed up the Cary 303T with the 303/300 that I owned. I had the 303/300 and the more entry model 308T. I preferred the 308T.
It's interesting that you put the Bifrost on par with the DAC in the 303T. That's pretty high praise for the Schiit.
I'm very happy with the Bifrost 2/64. I've used it in my headphone system and my regular 2-channel system.
Regards,
Steve
Well, I can provide my experiences searching for the same thing. Relax the requirements and things go downhill pretty fast.
The implementation is as important as the 'dac chip'. I have found that a tube output stage eliminates some/much of the etched / harsh nature of silicon amplification. It could be that some of the new op amp chips help reduce that impact - I have not tried them.
The only killer DAC chip I have encountered is the Ultra Analog 20400. I have heard a fair number of other well known dac chips, and they leave a vast amount on the table with regards to the 20400.
There are a couple of dacs that fulfill these requirements, and I have only heard the VTL 20 bit, which is my dac. Sonic Frontiers has several dacs that are similar, and I think there are yet a couple of other hard to find dacs.
Last year, the power supply on my VTL failed (poor workmanship from a shop), and it took me a couple of months before I could personally fix it. I reckoned that a good backup DAC was required. I had heard about the Lampizator dacs, so I got one. To be honest, it sounds like total crap compared to the VTL. Also to me, the single bit dacs sound really awful to my ears (but they are cheap to make, I guess).
Yep, sounds opinionated. Caveat is that everyone has different ears and different objectives. If you want to hear something that might make your system sound really special, try one of the Sonic Frontiers 20400 dacs. They are still pretty available in the market and not so expensive, whereas the other 20400 are rare as hens teeth.
Last I checked the UltraAnalog 20400 DAC module (not a chip) and the Sonic Frontiers DAC came out some 30 years ago. They probably sound great but I'd be very hesitant to buy one today due to age and repair-ability.I find R2R DACs to be 'relaxing' as in soft, smooth, slightly rich, a tad bit rolled off, but not very detailed or transparent. In this case, my vote goes for the Denafrips Ares series. To be honest, it was nice with 'simple music' but fell apart and got a little congested with more complex tunes.
P.S. If the DAC will ever be used via USB to a computer, music server, or network streamer, I would avoid anything over about 10 - 12 years old.
Edits: 05/27/25 05/27/25
Yep, the DAC was built about 30 years ago. That time was called the golden age of music for a reason, since the objective of HiFi companies then was to build the best sounding equipment. As opposed to the best sounding, affordable equipment they could make with inexpensive parts.
Your observation on R2R DACs seems reasonable, which is why I did not bother to mention them. Conceptually it is a good idea, but apparently the implementation is complex.
If one is streaming, then probably any DAC is fine. Low expectations of the quality of that sound - streaming is convenient though, I guess....
You might have an outdated concept of streaming. Qobuz, Tidal, and others stream lossless "redbook CD Quality" or even better "hi-res" up to 24-bit / 192 kHz. I owned a number of CD Players over the years including Cal Icon, 4 Cary, a couple Sony ES, and Denon. My favorite was the older Accuphase DP-65V that I had a few years ago. I sold it and all the CD's as I now stream mostly from a network streamer and Qobuz streaming service.
A couple of my favorite DACs include the PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC (discontinued), Topping D90, SMSL D400EX, Eversolo DMP-A8. Yup, a handful of these are Chinese brands that have no pretentious legacy pedigree or price to match.
Speaking of affordable chifi I bought a Fosi ZD3 Dac. It has balanced output and I wanted to run a long xlr run from the computer room to the listening room. Also ran an rca coax from the Theta Miles, so see what I thought. The Miles is a robust player and the transport never fails me. Balanced output meant double dac's for the Miles.The Fosi dac sounds fine to my ears from the coax or the usb from the computer. The Theta Miles is 25+ years old and the ZD3 is Fosi's flagship dac. There are certain immediate advantages to the brandnew circuitry although I am fond of the Theta's sound still. Why not?
The Fosi ZD3 Dac is another win for workable gear.
I'm running the BAT vk-3i as the preamp but I could run a single source balanced run to the v3 monos and use the dac as the volume control. I'd lose the subwoofer tho, so not going to happen. Magnepan LRS' without a sub just do not work for me.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Edits: 06/02/25
No problem - everybody has a beautiful baby. Some more than others...
Agree. Never call the other person's baby ugly ;-)
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