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RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC

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In Reply to: RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC posted by Mike K on May 27, 2025 at 05:49:29

Well, I can provide my experiences searching for the same thing. Relax the requirements and things go downhill pretty fast.

The implementation is as important as the 'dac chip'. I have found that a tube output stage eliminates some/much of the etched / harsh nature of silicon amplification. It could be that some of the new op amp chips help reduce that impact - I have not tried them.

The only killer DAC chip I have encountered is the Ultra Analog 20400. I have heard a fair number of other well known dac chips, and they leave a vast amount on the table with regards to the 20400.

There are a couple of dacs that fulfill these requirements, and I have only heard the VTL 20 bit, which is my dac. Sonic Frontiers has several dacs that are similar, and I think there are yet a couple of other hard to find dacs.

Last year, the power supply on my VTL failed (poor workmanship from a shop), and it took me a couple of months before I could personally fix it. I reckoned that a good backup DAC was required. I had heard about the Lampizator dacs, so I got one. To be honest, it sounds like total crap compared to the VTL. Also to me, the single bit dacs sound really awful to my ears (but they are cheap to make, I guess).

Yep, sounds opinionated. Caveat is that everyone has different ears and different objectives. If you want to hear something that might make your system sound really special, try one of the Sonic Frontiers 20400 dacs. They are still pretty available in the market and not so expensive, whereas the other 20400 are rare as hens teeth.

Follow Ups:

RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - AbeCollins 11:40:39 05/27/25 (5)
Last I checked the UltraAnalog 20400 DAC module (not a chip) and the Sonic Frontiers DAC came out some 30 years ago. They probably sound great but I'd be very hesitant to buy one today due to age and repair-ability.
I find R2R DACs to be 'relaxing' as in soft, smooth, slightly rich, a tad bit rolled off, but not very detailed or transparent. In this case, my vote goes for the Denafrips Ares series. To be honest, it was nice with 'simple music' but fell apart and got a little congested with more complex tunes.
P.S. If the DAC will ever be used via USB to a computer, music server, or network streamer, I would avoid anything over about 10 - 12 years old.
- Modern Sonic Frontiers (Open in New Window)
Edits: 05/27/25 05/27/25
- RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - rogerh113 12:38:35 05/27/25 (4)
  Yep, the DAC was built about 30 years ago. That time was called the golden age of music for a reason, since the objective of HiFi companies then was to build the best sounding equipment. As opposed to the best sounding, affordable equipment they could make with inexpensive parts.
  
  Your observation on R2R DACs seems reasonable, which is why I did not bother to mention them. Conceptually it is a good idea, but apparently the implementation is complex.
  
  If one is streaming, then probably any DAC is fine. Low expectations of the quality of that sound - streaming is convenient though, I guess....
  - RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - AbeCollins 12:53:52 05/27/25 (3)
    You might have an outdated concept of streaming. Qobuz, Tidal, and others stream lossless "redbook CD Quality" or even better "hi-res" up to 24-bit / 192 kHz. I owned a number of CD Players over the years including Cal Icon, 4 Cary, a couple Sony ES, and Denon. My favorite was the older Accuphase DP-65V that I had a few years ago. I sold it and all the CD's as I now stream mostly from a network streamer and Qobuz streaming service.
    
    A couple of my favorite DACs include the PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC (discontinued), Topping D90, SMSL D400EX, Eversolo DMP-A8. Yup, a handful of these are Chinese brands that have no pretentious legacy pedigree or price to match.
    - Qobuz Streaming (Open in New Window)
    - RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - farfetched 11:50:22 06/02/25 (0)
      Speaking of affordable chifi I bought a Fosi ZD3 Dac. It has balanced output and I wanted to run a long xlr run from the computer room to the listening room. Also ran an rca coax from the Theta Miles, so see what I thought. The Miles is a robust player and the transport never fails me. Balanced output meant double dac's for the Miles.
      The Fosi dac sounds fine to my ears from the coax or the usb from the computer. The Theta Miles is 25+ years old and the ZD3 is Fosi's flagship dac. There are certain immediate advantages to the brandnew circuitry although I am fond of the Theta's sound still. Why not?
      The Fosi ZD3 Dac is another win for workable gear.
      I'm running the BAT vk-3i as the preamp but I could run a single source balanced run to the v3 monos and use the dac as the volume control. I'd lose the subwoofer tho, so not going to happen. Magnepan LRS' without a sub just do not work for me.
      / optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
      
      Edits: 06/02/25
    - RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - rogerh113 14:08:21 05/27/25 (1)
      No problem - everybody has a beautiful baby. Some more than others...
      - RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC - AbeCollins 06:42:54 05/28/25 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ISO relaxed, non-fatiguing DAC posted by rogerh113 on May 27, 2025 at 14:08:21
        
        Agree. Never call the other person's baby ugly ;-)

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