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Re: You are asking..............

Dan did you forget what I said at the beginning of my post? let me repeat it for you. I wrote this post as part of: "... my continuing effort to 1) Find some common ground between Objectivists & Subjectivists, because I believe we are both partially right & wrong in our beliefs." This response of yours to my post only confirms what I've said about solidstate-loving Objectivists from the beginning, i.e most are closed-minded and don't want to know ANY part of the truth except their version of it!

Dan I want Objectivists & Subjectivists to get closer. In my heart of hearts I believe that scientsist & audio designers are correct when they say that we should be able to measure & verify what we hear. However as much as I believe that previous statement to be true, I also believe that todays accepted methods of measuring audio components is NOT measuring the what is perhaps the most crucial item that would correlate what's been measured with what's been heard, i.e. "these sounds!"

So yes Dan, I want engineers to try and learn how to measure the "Gestalt" of music! I'm sure you're absolutely correct and most not just some will say they don't know how to measure "these sounds," but they need to learn how. Unfortunately as it often is, many are opposed to change of accepted beliefs. In this case these accepted beliefs are "Todays accepted measurements of audio components are good enough." Your post reflects this opposition to change quite clearly. Dan you stated: Many scientists & audio designers will say, we don't get in to that. Perhaps your words reflect this oppostion to change best "...I'm not going near your "Gestalt" with a 10 ft pole." Yes Dan that only shows more evidence of the closed-mindedness that I refer to most solidstate loving Objectivists as having!

To you Dan and tomservo above I say, how quickly & conveniently you both forget what Real JJ said in this post...

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/18838.html

Allow me to refresh your memories, for you.

Ok, the amount of information available at the loudness memory stage is A SWIMMING POOL FULL. (all emphasis by thetubeguy1954)

The feature extraction pulls some semi-conciously, semi-unconciously selected bits out of the swimming pool, analyzes it, and gives you A QUART JAR FULL OF INFORMATION.

The auditory object phase analyzes the quart of water, and comes up with a few A FEW DROPS OF WATER THAT DESCRIBES WHAT YOU HEARD.

According to Real JJ, out of the "swimming pool" of information our ear/brain hears, we actually end up with a "quart jar" worth of info that further gets reduced to a "few drops" that we use to describe what we heard. So I ask you, if a "few drops" out of a swimming pool is all we have to work with, isn't highly probable that our ear/brain filters out a lot of what you consider to be objectionable about SET amps anyway?

Dan ALL audio components distort. Remember what Victor Campos' statement was at KLH 40 odd years ago? What amplifier (he said speaker) you like depends on what kind of distortion bothers you least. That is probably one of the most accurate statements ever said. You, Dan and tomservo want to pretend that solidstate components don't distort, but they do! Hence solidstate components, just like tubed components add imparted distortions that color the music.

I feel I must repeat myself. Using todays standard method for measuring performance in audio components is NOT what we should be using! Scientists and audio designers should be searching for a way the measure "these sounds!" Today's accepted measurements just do NOT correlate what's measured with what's heard. This is not something obscure or made up. It's painfully obvious to anyone with an open mind. The very fact that we have SET amps that measure poorly yet sound wonderful and at the same time we have solidstate amps that measure wonderful yet sound poor, confirms it!

Now is the time scientists or audio designers MUST do what Soundmind challenged audio designers to do! "IF" a scientist or audio designer can't correlate measurements they make with what they hear, they cannot abandon measurements but they need to come up with better ones that do! Yet how did you respond to that Dan? Your answer to that challenge was "...I would say I'm not going near your "Gestalt" with a 10 ft pole." Yes you Dan, don't want to go anywhere near discovering how to measure "these sounds" but you really should!

It's possible "these sounds" are one of the greatest influences on which few drops are saved, when the ear/brain combo both semi-conciously & semi-unconciously decides when finally reducing a swimming pool of information in music down to a few drops to describe what we hear! It's certainly possible and it needs to be studied and either proven or disproven as an idea. But this cannot be done until scientists and audio designers learn how to measure "these sounds."

Today is the day audio designers need to open their minds and look for the means to measure "these sounds" that are associated with what we refer to as musicality. You, Dan you chose to close your mind to examining what "these sounds" are and how to measure them. Even though they could possibily provide us with the most accurate method of correlating what's heard, with what's been measured. You, Dan said: "...I'm not going near your "Gestalt" with a 10 ft pole."

It's certainly a possibilty that we are onto something big. It's also possible that "these sounds" aren't the holy grail as well, but until scientists and audio designers open their minds, until people stop pretending todays accepted audio tests are sufficient, until we have a definitive test that correlates accurately what's been measured with what's been heard, IMHO only a quack would outright dismiss "these sounds" and the POSSIBILITY that they could finally lead us to a test that correlates what's heard, with what's been measured.

Isn't that what we are all really looking for?

Thetubeguy1954

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