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In Reply to: RE: Interesting posted by geoffkait on January 26, 2013 at 18:04:45
" The principles of keeping in the dark " !
I hope that not to be the "Manufacturer axiom"
: )
tweaker
Follow Ups:
It's a time-honored and effective strategy when dealing with folks intent on reverse engineering your products, knocking them off or otherwise trying to wheedle proprietary or top secret information - keep them in the dark!
"Loose lips sink ships." - old audiophile axiom
"It's what I choose to believe." - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus
folks who are trying to find out whether the manufacturer's claims are BS, or not.
So, you're saying some overly suspicious guy with a high school equivalency is going to be able to reverse engineer a product claimed to operate quantum mechanically and determine if it's BS? Yeah, right.
Edits: 01/29/13
ass
Have you considered a cold shower?
try again
and judging from what you have written you've swallowed their printed text hook, line, and sinker.
So you believe they are either lying or intentially deceptive? This is all so completely bizarre, that you claim to have gotten your information directly from the 3 principles, that you alone got the real story, and turn around and accuse them of lying on their web site and in their instructions. I strongly recommend you consider a refresher course in reverse engineering.
Edits: 01/27/13
I believe what they told me because I have verification of what I wrote. The photo shows various pieces of Mpingo wood I had experimented with incuded a sandwich piece with the grain running crossways to each other. In addition the half round piece is a cross section of a Shun Mook disc cut in half ( i lost the crystal contained within).This is but a small sampling of the mpingo that I have, having been experimenting with the wood for well over a decade.
I wrote the answer because you do not realize your very own words apply directly to you. Remember, you wrote that deceptive answers and descriptions may be made to discourage people who attempt to reverse engineer. Then you also wrote that you had extensively reversed engineered the product and you came to the conclusion that the wood, the bevel ,etc, were all factors....
In my samples, the discs were very uniform except for the location of the rosewood plug. Even the orientation of the grain was random. Now, I have the first generation Shun Mook discs, and they did not have the location dot, but depended upon the orientation of the milled Chinese character for orientation. However if the character is placed faced down, it would be rather difficult to see the orientation, wouldn't it? Plus a check of the website shows no requirement for the character to be face down. If this was so then the spatial resonators ought not to have the characters visible, shouldn't it?
Edits: 01/27/13
So, don't keep us all in suspense, what did they tell you? Specifically how was it different from what they say on their web site with respect to sympathetic resonance, assuming you're still sticking to that story.I got my Mpingo discs many years before you did and mine had the azimuth orientation marks so I find it hard to believe yours didn't. Besides, if you had done your homework you'd know that the Chinese character should always be face down to obtain the correct sonic benefit. The instructions that come with the Mpingo disc describes how to use the disc, both which side is up and how to find the correct azimuth using the mark on the edge as a guide, as I already mentioned. The Shun Mook web site contains the theory of operation, i.e. sympathetic resonance. This is all just a case of you little scamps getting some idea in your head then arguing til you're blue in the face when someone challenges your belief. The Backfire Effect in action.
In Shun Mooks' words, "A simple test by yourself or your clients is to hold the disc with the Chinese logo up or down in one’s palm and feel the weight. Flip the disc over and weigh it the other way, you will feel the logo side down is heavier then the other way. Why?
This is crazy, nothing is added, same disc. There is an energy flowing through the disc to your palm that is enhanced within the ebony. The energy from your palm is the aura of your body that is reacting to the disc energy."
Edits: 01/27/13 01/27/13
Ever consider the mpingo wood is heavier than rosewood. Mpingo does NOT float in water. To attribute mystical explanations for something which is clearly evident is a bit silly, in my opinion, and looks like the back fire effect sure fits into your explanation.
You ever try the Shun Mook Ruby Hexsonic? Or was that already discontinued when you bought your discs?
Please do not make extravagant claims (i.e. buying yours before mine, unless you provide details), This isn't a pissing match, you know. I show a photo of a Mpingo disc cut in half, Have you cut one in half? If so please provide proof.
Also please provide details of your reverse engineering on the discs: ie the differences in the beveling and such that you claim to exist.
Stu
I took my Mpingos to CES in 1997 when I was invited by Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade to participate in his room. See photo of my Nimbus Sub-Hertz Platform isolating Nakamichi Dragon CD System. See if you can guess what the little round thing on the floor is. Hint: The first two guesses don't count.Nice to see you are still in denial. The Backfire Effect is much stronger than I thought. LOL!!
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." - old audiophile axiom
Edits: 01/28/13
So if the m'pingo disc is affecting the Nakamichi Dragon, perhaps your isolation base is not working very well, is it? The disc is situated directly in front of your base and probably is a hell of a lot cheaper and aesthetically more pleasing.
The Mpingo disc has nothing to do with my platform. I was placed on the floor where Pierre liked the sound. Just coincidence that it is in the photo. Obviously, you have not played around with the Mpingo as much as I have.
without any proof.....
again.............
If you had done your homework correctly you wouldn't ask so many questions. It's just bizarre that you missed the boat entirely on this thing. And after two decides.
Sorry, I believe it you are denial as you you speak of things for which you have no idea of what really is. Shun Mook started in the early 1990's. My Chinese friend gave a sample for me to try in 1991, and I purchased sets, becoming a dealer in 1992. That's clearly at least 5 years before your reference date.
In speaking to the principles, I suggested the set up which eventualy became their spatial resonance package, although I disagee with them on their recommendations ( they like a more diffuse soundstage, which I dislike, preferring a more precise placement). I actually sat in their room speaking to them for well over an hour, after the official closing time of CES, demonstrating the effect and comparing their thoughts with actual placement options.
Again you fail to address the specific questions I put forth. That has been rather consistent with your replies. No one questions your ability to discover a tweak. That being said, your explanations are a major embarassment for any one associated, however remotely, with the intellectual community. At least you are finally beginning to state that you "don't know". There is nothing wrong in stating that fact. But the fact remains that you exhibit an almost desperate paranoia in an attempting to retain an image of authority. You simply state things which may be true in your limited experience, but may not be true in a more generalized application. You use this false sense of authority to avoid answering pointed and specific questions.
While you claim credentials for your statements, your very own words condemn the explanations you put forth, as no accredited physicist could agree with your writings. In addition your flights of "reasoning" do not follow standard rules of logic. Many conclusions are drawn for which no intermediate associations have been established
While in your mind these rationales may be "true", objectively and using the known laws of physics coupled with the actual close examination of certain items, like an actual dissection of the m'pingo discs, reveals data for which you appear totally unaware of. That you can not accept it shows your unwillingness to accept new facts.
To tell the truth, if I had not actually dissected the product in question, I would not have jumped in. But then I did destroy a $50 disc in order to examine the innards which I had previously x-rayed (at a dental office) first in order to have some idea of what was contained within.
In the context of tone woods, the m'pingo discs perform in one manner. In the context of the crystal contained within, the piezo effect takes precedence and the discs perform in another manner. For me, the concept is not hard to grasp. Others may have difficulty in grasping the concept however.
stu
So you have no theory to contradict the Shun Mook theory of sympathetic resonance, eh? You don't actually think the Mpingo disc is an RFI/EMI device, do you? It certainly sounds like you do but are a little timid about coming right out and saying it. Lol. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it seems pretty clear, your stubbornness notwithstanding, that the presence of the crystal inside the Mpingo disc supports my contention that crystals act as acoustic and mechanical resonators in the majority of cases.You wrote a day or two ago,
"This is but a small sampling of the mpingo that I have, having been experimenting with the wood for well over a decade."
Perhaps you misspoke. Maybe you should have said, "well over two decades" In any case, can I offer the observation that time spent experimenting does not necessarily guarantee success? Lol
Edits: 01/28/13 01/28/13 01/28/13
stu
Nt
after all I gave a synopsis of what I was told, You elected not to believe me, I didn't tape their replies, you know.... I consiedr that question answered. So where's my answers?
Stu
You actually scrupulously avoided telling me your theory or what they told you. Nice try.
that your theory was that the shape of the disc made all the difference, citing different bevels and such. I detect absolutely no change from disc to disc in the physical shape and wrote so. You claim to have reverse engineered the disc. I see no product of your engineering.
So essentially i see no support for your theory, if indeed you even had one. Why should I be any different from you?
No I didn't state that. I said that the way the disc was cut, including beveling and the physical dimensions of the disc, as well as how the disc was oriented top to bottom and azimuth was what was important. Not to mention where the disc was placed. Maybe you should keep a running logbook so you don't have to rely on your memory. I also said I agree with the Shun Mook explanation of sympathetic resonance. I assume you have some other theory, one you seem reticent to divulge, can't say I blame you.
All too often, these threads quickly turn into a Geoff and Stu pissing match. In an attempt to showcase your superiority over one another, you both encroach beyond the point of science meets fantasy, and you embarrass yourselves in the process.
But this is the essence of high-end audio isn't it? It's entertainment after all. So keep it up; I find it highly amusing.
Scandanavian University trying to reverse engineering Stradivari violin ! ! so bad
Consider a Strad violin with FBI warnning lable , ! ! so funny
I don't want to produce craps & i enjoy to read about others experience & find many things & you try to keep someting in the dark
& i am happy & this is interesting & fun & i can't find your sence of humor ! !
:)
tweaker
No one can spot the Strad violin in blind tests, not even pro musicians. Now tell me I don't have a sensa humor.
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."
Bob Taylor has made astronomical money with tone woods in his guitars. The wood(and the quality thereof)used in a particular guitar makes a big difference. Most guitars have a spruce top for neutrality and it is more stable and consistent in size and sound over time with the body supplying the overtones and harmonics. The size and shape complete the overall tone and volume.
who actually build instruments report similar results. One who builds ukelele's ( samll and easier to build) reposrt that the nature of the wood used makes a significant sonic impact. although he builds primarily for show....
Stu
Here ,the neck of an instrument (tanbur) build with tree type of wood :
in west with almond , in center with walnut & in east with jujube !
that makes different sounds color.And this is a unfinished jujube wood block .some times i used them in room ! :)
tweaker
Edits: 01/28/13
What's that have to do with the price of spinach? Guitar manufacturers have been using ebony, rosewood, etc. at critical points like forever. Is this supposed to be news?
Not intended to be news just wanted to add to what started out as a general discussion of tone woods. Some might be smart enough to extrapolate from Taylor's experience with spruce, etc. to applications relevant to their situation. Sorry if it confused you.
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