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In Reply to: RE: Magnetism posted by unclestu on January 14, 2013 at 15:53:05
They haven't.The better audio gear use non magentic resistors, capacitors etc. Demagnetisers pass signals designed to ge rid of residual magnetism in components and they just work.
This has been around for years and the number of vendors doing this are not blind to the 'physics'.
Edits: 01/15/13Follow Ups:
I believe most designers are blind to the effects of EMI induction. Oh yeah, we know the theoretical aspects, but addressing the inductive qualities are often ignored. For example, take the use of circuit boards and the effect of adjacent traces. Why is it that removing a metal chassis cover almost invariably opens up the upper frequencies?
These are not difficult issues to address but very few designers actually take the time to rectify them.
About 25 years ago, when being trained as a CADCAM systems manager, I came across a program to calculate the effects of EMI induction in circuit boards. Back then it was a $100k program, but I never saw anything further.
Stu
My XLO Test CD has two tracks for system demagnetization. I got the CD when it came out, in 1995, almost twenty years ago. How time flies. As the XLO Test CD points out, it has been standard practice since the earliest days of analog recording to de-magnetize the tape heads prior to every use. Who can forget bulk tape head erasers from Radio Shack? XLO also points out that the leads of most caps and resistors are made of copper plated steel and most connectors, even gold plated ones, have a highly magnetic nickle underplate. XLO also points out that the impurities in copper conductors are usually the "iron triad" metals - iron, nickle and cobalt. As for the physics, since the audio signal in the electronic signal path is electromagnetic it's not much of a stretch to conclude that any magnetized material in the signal path or in proximity to it probably interferes with and distorts the audio signal to some degree.
Edits: 01/15/13
"As for the physics, since the audio signal in the electronic signal path is electromagnetic it's not much of a stretch to conclude that any magnetized material in the signal path or in proximity to it probably interferes with and distorts the audio signal to some degree."
It's an incredible stretch to conclude it on that basis, but it's reasonable to suspect it or maybe even assume it as a working hypothesis. Of course once you insert the weasel words it's actually no longer a conclusion, more a tepid notion.
Audiophiles: we know far more than the facts.
Rick
explain the sudible effects of ferrites round a cable? This has a lesser positive effect than demag sweeps.
"explain the sudible effects of ferrites round a cable?
What's to explain?
They have mu and loss and hysteresis by design and depending on their characteristics may audibly affect the audio signals if it couples into them. They are also magic bullets that can help keep crud in the environment out and crud in the box in. Proper application is everything.
Rick
assumed that maganetic components cannot affect sound whilst a ferrite does.
"assumed that maganetic components cannot affect sound whilst a ferrite does."
I haven't assumed anything. I'm saying that believing that remnant magnetism is the mechanism that causes whatever it is that running weird waveforms and levels through a system "cures" is just an assumption. Leastwise I have yet to see any supporting data.
But I'm not saying it's wrong, merely unsupported. Don't you suppose that the magic signal could also be affecting the dielectrics or conductors, maybe even the active devices?
Rick
above titled I should have written about this earlier ?I used a hand held degausser to achieve much the same effect but for a very short term change.
stu
Edits: 01/17/13
The request or demand for data is a little ridiculous given that audio magazines aren't going to measure this sort of thing. NASA Is not going to get involved in esoteric audiophile concerns, nor is DARPA, MIT or Princeton. Nor are the died in the wool uber skeptics, that's for sure. And I'd eat a bug if AES or any of the other head in the clouds audio and electronics societies would touch this with a ten foot pole. :-)This is all a little reminiscent of the scene in 12 Angry Men when Lee J Cobb angrily declares, "But you can't prove it!" :-)
Edits: 01/17/13
"The request or demand for data is a little ridiculous"
Yes, I agree that it would be so it's a good thing that I didn't do so!
It's the uncritical acceptance of speculation as truth that bothers me, it's a very dangerous trait in legal witnesses and can be a severe to dangerous one in engineering. Really it's simply no good in any realm of life.
Philosophic Rick
I can see anecdotal eveidence based on a hypothesis , particularly in the absence of hard data. In addition, for us amateurs, good scientific test gear, calibrated and certified can run into major prices.
Still by diligently searching and being aware of alternate sources, it is amazing what an amateur can find. You can amass quite a store of test gear, a bit more slowly than you may desire.
For anecdotal experience, successes as well as negative results are equally important in determining the viability of a hypothesis. And of course, you need a wide pool of experimenters who are willing to share their experiences.
I find it puzzling that many so called "educated" types can not seem to grasp this concept. As an open forum, AA is ideal for this purpose as it reaches a wide range of the population. General success in a particular application, would mean to a great extent the validity of a hypothesis. In addition the queries also serve as a means of checks and balances, whereby unforeseen circumstances and applications can be discussed.
It does not serve the community any good to have one figure be an "authority" as no single man can ever think of every possibility nor try ever conceivable variation.
What evidence can you muster that any laws of science have been trampled on? Besides, the last time I looked this forum is for speculation as much as anything else. Since there is no data then it's wide open to speculation on both sides. I don't recall your offering an alternative explanation, but maybe I missed it. :-). Isn't it customary to either show how one theory is false or offer a competing theory?
Edits: 01/17/13 01/17/13
"I don't recall your offering an alternative explanation, but maybe I missed it. :-)"
Guess so, how about this one from this morning?
"But I'm not saying it's wrong, merely unsupported. Don't you suppose that the magic signal could also be affecting the dielectrics or conductors, maybe even the active devices?" -rick_m
Of course the list could be extended much further, without the burden of proof or causality we could bring in miracles, Martians, mind control, power of suggestion... anything you care to name. Not only that there is rarely if ever a single cause of anything, but there are often a few clearly dominant ones that we can wrest control of.
And this one may well involve magnetism. I just got a post from Stu reminding me that he got a similar effect using a degausser. My initial comments actually assumed that the coupling mechanism was the magnetic field but raised the question of whether the effect was due to the remanant field itself or to the mu of the material being increased by degausing thus changing the L/R ratio and hence the phase and amplitude of the reflected energy.
Rick
for the further thoughts.
In the case of degaussing software, particularly LP's, I can mesure a reduction with my gaussmeter. Here I believe the mechanism os the reaction of the vinyl with the magnetic field of the cartridge.
YMMV
Stu
Speculation IS fun, isn't it?
"Speculation IS fun, isn't it?"
YES, I love it, particularly after blank-minded observation, my specialty!
My MO for AA (and many other milieus) is to initially trust observations and ignore explanations. That sort of jelled in the mid 70's and has served me well ever since. Do you remember 'Stranger in a Strange Land'? I know, turn up the way back machine. Heinlein's notion of the 'true witness' (I think that was the name) nicely defines the ideal observer to me. Trying to rationalize and observe at the same time serves neither well.
Rick
Rick, I'm starting to think whatever Unc Stu has might be contagious. You need to get a hold of some demag devices, or so it would appear from your casual Barco Lounger approach to magnetization."Never up, never in." Old audiophile axiom
"I look at the world and I notice it's turning
While my guitar gently weeps
With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps.I don't know how you were diverted"
Edits: 01/15/13
This has been a very informative thread and I thank the contributors for the their input. The tongue-in-cheek humor, and otherwise, has been a hoot and greatly adds to the reading of the material. Due to the information posted herein, I plan to order a demag or system optimizing disc. Thanks.
kendo
"I plan to order a demag or system optimizing disc. Thanks."
Sounds like a good plan and I bet you will be well pleased. Please don't mistake my interest in the underlying mechanism as a concern that the devices don't actually work.
Regards, Rick
do you have a gaussmeter?
Stu
"do you have a gaussmeter?"
Nope. I can do AC fields with loops and a scope or meter but don't have any way to measure static fields. Hmmm, now that you mention it that might be a fun thing to have...
Rick
So what do you recommend Stu?
Looks like I can make one with a sensor chip from A/D however it's in an soic package so a little big for real near field stuff.
I googled them up to see if I could get something cheap and found unbelievable weirdness that makes audiophiles look mainstream. I can get one that assesses whether I'm risking death from evil magnetic fields and get this.. If they do do me in my spouse can then use it to see if I'm lurking around as a ghost.
If it also pealed potatoes I wouldn't be able to resist.
Rick
Sorry, was just asking. I scored a Lakeshore meter from our local engineering department which was going to toss the unit. I was really dumpster diving that time, but the unit works and came with two probes in 90 degree different orientations.
Funny after getting it, I rarely use it. I used to use a simple fluid filled compass (Silva) to gauge magnetic fields ( seeing how far away I could place it before the needle deflects).
This was in the days of shielded center channel speakers, important for the older CRT sets. I was purchasing a lot of mu metal in order to ameliorate the magnetic effects, a waste, actually, but I did learn a lot. Channeling the field was more important than actually shielding the field... And by channeling the magnetic field you could reap further sonic benefits ( and video ones too).
YMMZ
OK Stu!
I too have an old Silva compass, but I doubt that it's sensitive to ectoplasmic energy or whatever ghosts give off. However it does point Northish. You know our magnetic declination has changed several degrees since we moved here in '76? So much for solid as the Earth... And, come to think of it, I have a couple degaussers from my R-R tape days. The RS tape one and a head one of some sorts. So I'm not totally magnetically bereft.
"Channeling the field was more important than actually shielding the field... And by channeling the magnetic field you could reap further sonic benefits ( and video ones too)."
I think "channeling" is the only operative mechanism in shields for non-varying signals. If you can effectively "short them out" then stuff on the outside doesn't see them. Varying signals on the other hand can also be converted to heat by resistive materials. Mu-metal does both. Actually all metals do to some extent but it does it by design.
Fun stuff. I was planning to do a lot more tinkering in retirement but I'm having so much fun just listening to what I have now that it's more curiosity than urgency.
Rick
Its been my observation that, in reality, magnetic fields and the fields that are induced by an electrical field move way faster in something like mu metal, or metglas rather than air. By increasing the speed of the magnetic field propagated, the signal which generates it also speeds up, or, at least, presents the sonic quality of "speeding" up.It is fascinating for me because I notice this effect seems to be greater, IMHO, on the negtive or ground wires, rather than the positive.
This is a photo of an IC I made. The wire is Kimber SF-23 and the black strand is clear heatshrink filled with ferrofluid and contains the ground wire ( unbalanced RCA). I have a simple copper wire winding wound about the ferrofluid to capture the E field the magnetic field will generate, and then the sinlge clear strand is the positive SF-23 carrying the signal. The wire topology follows the KS-1010 kimber select IC.
The ferrofluid coupled with the external winding is more open and extended than the factory KS-1010. I like it better although I am a bit worried about the longevity of the ferrofluid filled wire. without the external winding, the cable sounds slow and dull.
In peering through the jacketed Purist Audio Cables, I notice the newer models have copper colored particulate inside of the fluid jacket. ( I am assuming they use ferrofluid also, although Jim Aud has been fairly mum on the subject).
At any rate, lots of room for experimentation. The makers and purveyors of mumetal all recommend a copper surface be added to the mumetal to reduce the elertrical induction, BTW. If using mu metal or other similar treatments they also recommend radiusing the corners. This radiusing is critical as without doing so the sound tends to become edgy; peaky in the highs.
At any rate YMMV, as always
stu
PS Pitch of the winding is not super critical although the finer the pitch the better the sound. The issue becomes one of losing flexibility, however.
Edits: 01/16/13
Wow!
Think I'll stick with masking tape and magnet wire, not nearly as complicated and messy...
I wonder if some of the "speed" increase isn't due to mechanical damping? Wires propagate vibrations a lot more efficiently than one might suppose and that can smear the signal if the insulation isn't electrically "hard" and they also mechanically couple the gear at either end to some extent.
What if you modified the cable the same way but just used a similar viscosity mineral oil? If it works as well it wouldn't leave as dark a stain on the carpet when it leaks!
Slick Rick
You're right about staining: doesn't come out of my jeans and takes forever to come off the skin......If it was merely dampening, I believe the ferrofluid fill would have worked without the copper wire wound outside. The fact that the ferrofluid filled shrink needs the copper winding is an indication that you need to address the electrical induction generated by the magnetic ferrofluid. Without it, the ferrofluid makes the wire sound slow and ponderous, bass heavy, and generally mushy.
This experimentation lead me to wrap my ferrite cores with copper tape. while the effect is more subtle as the ferrite cores have their magnetic constituent fixed, and thus increases the magnetic resistance, it does offer a small increase in the top end energy.
I use large round toroids over or under my motors (TT as well as CD spin motors). The sound improves more noticeably when I wrap the toroid in copper tape and then ground it ( with a crystal in the center I may add, as the toroid seems to "focus" the magnetic field generaed by the motors.....)
I also add ferrofluid to my digital focus motor windings around the laser lens. This really adds significant detail to the music and much better dynamics. I don't recommend this for everyone because if you over fill and the ferrofluid gets on the lens, you've just ruined your read assembly. Also you have to be very careful to fill the coils similarly as an excess in one coil leads to the focus motor controller supplying an unequal correction signal, ruining the read capability. Can't adjust it electronically as the controllers (servos) are all on a single chip these days.
As an aside, I mentioned the ferrofluid to Ivor Kuznetoff (SP?) who built some interesting tube type suspension systems filled with silicone. Having a lot of various viscosity silicon on hand he tried it on his CD player and reported good results. So the dampening is an integral part of the ferrofluid. I like the ferro fluid because the magnetic constituent tends to retain the ferrofluid in the coils and I have less fear of the fluid leaching out and possibly contaminating the lens/mirror assembly.
I also add ferrofluid to cartridge coils with signficant increase in sound quality. Again not for every cartridge as some are very sensitive to the mineral oil in the ferrofluid and the oil can affect the rubber suspension.
I believe the ferrofluid here is filling the gaps between the wire windings and thus presents a more "solid" magnetic block to the applied field. Certainly, say in the case of a MM cartridge, the oil can't be doing much dampening as the coils are tightly wound on a former, but you definitely can hear an increase in dynamic range and better detail. In essence you create a more powerful motor assembly.
As usual YMMV
Stu
Edits: 01/16/13
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