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In Reply to: RE: Rega Apollo/Saturn isolation posted by coolhand on November 29, 2010 at 13:39:07
Did you try the cd mat that comes with the Boston Acoustics Rega kit?
Or do you just use the TuneBlocks?
Follow Ups:
I did try it and found that it counteracted the gains achieved by the Tune Blocks !
BTW, the effect of using either of these was EXTREMELY apparent.
I say this, as quite frankly I was quite sceptical as to the results reported in a couple of reviews which I had read....
The effect was actually even more obvious than that of changing my ic's from palladian to my Stealth pure carbon for example.
I had the option to return the Boston Audio products to the dealer, so I took the punt.
Having tried a few other support options which imparted their own obvious signature, or skewed the presentation in some manner, I found much to my delight that the Tune Blocks simply opened up the entire presentation of the Saturn in ALL regards, it became faster, clearer, with MUCH better defined bass and overall presence & with a huge increase in apparent ambience & air up the top, which is where I had found it previously lacking somewhat.
(I'm not sure if it was Rega's intention to shelve the upper freq. response in order to facilitate an aspect of 'analogue ' playback, as far as the removal of the characteristic digital glare which many cd players suffer).
Anyway the exceedingly smooth aspect of the Saturn was not in anyway reduced, simply more 'air' and resolution was liberated in all recordings.... I could not listen to the Rega without the Tune Blocks in place after experiencing this.
Quite unique in my experience, with these footers I could not find any detrimental aspects of their addition under the player.
The harmonic envelope and rich tonality remained, it was not a matter of gaining air and definition, in exchange for a thinnner or more bleached tonal spectrum.
Getting back again to your question of the Boston Audio Mat for the Saturn, IME, this did impart a detrimental and almost inversely proportional reduction of the air gained from the footers !
At first I noted an obvious enhancement of the mid band, voices in particular became easier to follow with increased presence, however this was the only area which gained, to my ears, as a result of a 'bell' type of eq. effect.
Even on notably harsh sounding discs, the loss of definition was undesireable and I would suggest one to 'green' or 'blacken' the edge of the offending cd in question with a marker pen, which can temper the high frequencies, without effecting the rest of the audio band to the extent that the Boston Audio mat does.
What I do still use on occasion with particular discs is the Millenium M-CD Carbon Fibre mat.
This has a similar effect to the Boston Mat, BUT it is much less intrusive whilst still offering a significant reduction of the, let me simply call it 'digital irritation' which some discs appear to suffer from.
I should re-iterate that the above results were obtained with 3 Tune Blocks which were mounted on a SAP Relaxa magnetic platform, so bear this in mind should your experiences differ !
The SAP platform is a superb isolation device which in its own right greatly improved the fidelity of the Saturn by virtue of it's inherent design, and is also highly recommended, as are the Clearaudio Magix 2 footers which are similar type magnetically suspended isolation devices I also employ in my systems.
(Hugely effective in my home which has all suspended timber flooring)!
Thanks for your thoughtful and helpful response.
By the way Coolhand..
Did you try the Magix, the SAP platform or the tuneblocks each by themselves under the Saturn? The Relaxa and Magix are unfrotunately a bit out of my pricerange but, I'd be interested to see if you found (just using one of these under the Saturn) whether you preferred one or the other (or neither over the tuneblocks?)
Thanks!
I did... I won't bore you with the prior extensive footer variations I've tried, which much also take into account the actual rack which all of this was/is mounted upon.My present rack is a custom multiple decoupled constrained layer, low mass, high rigidity type.... Several high mass racks, air platforms, cork/rubber blocks etc... etc... have previously been employed in the room/system but I'm most satisfied with things as they currently remain.
So outside of the above, I initially listened to the Saturn on its own footers, and then progressed to the Relaxa, a very positive step in the right direction towards amelioration of the impact of room generated vibrations, sonically facilitating a much more composed and defined presentation.
The Tuneblocks came after numerous other experiments which, as I outlined in my previous post, made their individual characters all too apparent. I did try both types of bearings in the Tune Blocks also, there was a small but perceptible change of character with the Tungsten Carbide type which I ultimately preferred, when using the TB's on the Relaxa.
This was not apparent to me when using the TB's on the rack surface directly, themselves alone notably clarifying the midbass registers and definition of the Saturn .... however the Relaxa further allows the Saturn to show me what it's capable of, and in conjunction with the TB's became a totally mind blowing transformation, never thought I'd hear 20% of the improvement from nothing more than 'another' hyped up footer, I know it's a clicheŽ, but my better half was as dumbfounded as me, and could not believe the improvement (transformation actually) was the result of the Tune Blocks alone (compared to the Saturn directly on top of the Relaxa)....
We spent a few nights experimenting around the numerous options, bearings, and size of Tune Block, as the dealer gave me a few sizes to try....
It's been a while and honestly I can't recall precisely which I ended up with, without going over to measure them.... O.K, just did......They're the 2.5cm (1") high x 5cm (2") diameter ones.I have yet to try the Magix 2 under the Saturn, they're used with other sources at the moment.... You'll know when you find a fine combo and you'd rather spend time listening to music than the sound of the freekin' feet or whatever ;-))
Maybe when I've gotten about 8 other projects out of the way I'll get back to more experimenting with the Saturn which is not in the main system presently.As much as I rave of the Tune Blocks (which are IMHE, likely the most bang for buck sound enhancements I've yet to have used), I hesitate to ascribe the profound improvements I experienced to them alone.
One must constantly remember that EVERY SINGLE component interacts with every other, synergy is often talked about in context of speakers & amps, cable matching etc... but my experiences can leave not a single stone unturned when referring to synergy, the room, its material construction and its contents being MAJOR contributors amongst many others which are often not related to when one reads (or writes)reviews.
I think the graphite material employed by Boston Audio is a remarkable medium with quite apparently unique properties which I personally would like to explore much more deeply in various other aspects of my system designs, in fact I do also use the excellent Boston Audio MAT 1, which is a turntable platter mat.... but that's yet another personal account for another thread .....
BTW: At a much later date, I went deeply into the guts of the Saturn and it was modified with extensive clock and output stage enhancements/modifications which can be read about in the Digital asylum.
This rather musical digital source has a heck of a lot of further potential to tap into if you already dig its essential and quite unique core character !
Edits: 12/02/10
Coolhand..
Well, you've outdone yourself here my friend! Such an extensive and detailed response. You have no idea how much this helps potential buyers. Thankyou!!
Yeah so it seems those tuneblocks you have there (based on your measurements) are the standard version. I've been thinking (potentially) about springing for the dearer ones (the XT or SE models..) But again, unsure if it would be overkill or not - I know sometimes when it comes to isolation, the dearer products sometimes aren't always better - as you said it depends on how each component reacts to the particular dimensions/specifications of the product. There are no rules and it's all about experimentation.
That Sap Relaxa sounds fantastic. If you ever plan on selling it, let me be the first to know haha! (Yeah right - it sounds like you've got a match made in heaven there why would you break that up =).
At the end of the day though your post has made my decision much easier - you're a Saturn user and have said the tuneblocks on their own are a great upgrade. I think this is all I need to go ahead with them.
Thanks again and I can't express my appreciation enough!
Andrew
After talking with Boston Audio they recommend using four Tuneblocks for the Saturn (not the usually recommended three). Apparently the heatsink on the bottom of the Saturn makes it tricky placing 3 Tuneblocks in a stable layout. Four tuneblocks makes it easier.
Edits: 12/02/10
Trying theTuneBlocks out on the Saturn now.
Considerable change in sound. Much nicer top end, cleaner more defined, but much diminished bass and lower midrange. I need a bit more time with the new sound to decide if I like it overall.
Wow...
Thanks Coolhand!
I couldn't have asked for a better response to my post than this! This is just the kind of detail I was after.. Saturn users and their isolation experience.
So interesting your thoughts on the tuneblocks excluding the cd stabilizer.
Can I ask which tuneblocks you purchased? Not using the stabilizer throws another perspective on all this, as tuneblocks come in a variety of incarnations. ie, if you didn't spend the money on the stabilizer ($159) you may as well put the money towards the best tuneblocks (the XT version I believe?) with the TC upgrade.
Which version of the tuneblocks are you using? Is it the one that comes with the Rega Saturn kit? (The Tuneblocks standard with TC upgrade I believe?)
Thanks!
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