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120.20.119.119
Hi all
Just wondering what people have found are the best isolation devices for these players?
I've tried a BDR Shelf from elsewhere in my system under my new Rega Saturn, and the result was not as pronounced as with other gear.. More clarity, but, in some ways less musical though..
I've seen some say the Apollo/Saturn doesn't respond that great to isolation, and have just stayed with the stock feet on their rack. But, as a lifetime user of Black Diamond Racing Shelves, the stock feet sound terrible to my ears. Muddy and awful. Surely there has to be some successful products out there. I'm thinking of trying Ceraballs.. Any advice? Thx!
Follow Ups:
If you are a Rega Saturn owner you have to try this combo tweak- three Boston Audio TuneBlocks and a Furutech 500ma 20mm Fuse. Together. Wow! What a combo.*******************************
As per Coolhands advice I tried the TuneBlocks. Great air in upper treble, tightened lower treble. But for me they killed the midrange and bass. Hard to overlook the wonderful effect on treble though. For days I tried different arrangements even swapping to Herbies Tenderfeet and the stock footers for reference. The stock footers returned the bass but it was a little muddy and no clean treble.
On the side I had a Furutech 500ma fuse which I bought for the Rega but I am very familiar with the long rhodium burn-in time of the Furutechs, so have abstained from putting it in the Rega until I am prepared for the long burn-in wait. However I do know that the Furutechs add great bass bloom despite the 800 hour burn-in where he lower treble has a wet metallic twang. Could the Furutechs compliment the TuneBlocks 'deficiencies'
Since I am unhappy with the effect of the TuneBlocks alone I figured maybe it's time to try the Furutech fuse.
Installed it in the Saturn. Hmm great midrange but still lacking in bass and a little lower treble forward. But some promise. Maybe after that frustrating 800 hour burn-in?
Recalling a recent thread where Jihad got put in the 'cooler' after crying heresy about fuse directionality, I thought I would, on a whim, swap the fuse direction.Now I've tried this with fuses before and noticed no difference with a change in direction. And the Furutech fuses are not supposed to be directional. Regardless, I carefully swapped it's direction making sure not to touch the fuse end contacts.
Turned the Rega back on to try out the combo with reversed fuse direction.
Wow! Everything has fallen into place!
It doesn't even have that rough non-burned-in sound!
The treble is clean, the midrange and bass are present, detailed and fleshy in proper proportion.I can't believe the synergy and improved sound of the TuneBlocks - Furutech fuse combo. I'm shocked that this combo tweak (and a fuse direction swap?!) could work so well together.
Now I'm hoping that burn-in doesn't change this now as it's almost perfect improvement, as-is.For someone aready using the TuneBlocks and tuned to that sound, the fuse may upset the balance. But for people still using the stock feet and happy with that general tonal balance, this combo is ideal as the overall frequency response is generally preserved but with an improved clarity from top to bottom. I would love to hear if any other Saturnians and Appolites benefit from this combo.
Oh and as per Boston Audios advice, I started with 4 TuneBlocks, but currently the best 'grip' on the played seems to be with two TuneBlocks on the left hand side (heavy transformer side) and one Tuneblock under the right side. (3 total)
Edits: 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10 12/23/10
My Saturn sits on a 3/8" piece of granite, I also use the Millenium CD Mat. Superb sound. I've tried the BDR cones, myrtle blocks, marble, turotine slabs. The granite works the best.
Thanks for your post..
Hmm.. Granite. I'll try that, thanks. I could also try a BDR Shelf for the same purpose nut, they're too dear..
As for the cd mat, how interesting. There are a few of these out there. The Boston Audio cd stabilizer, the Super Black Hole... Have you heard about/tried any of these with your Saturn?
I was thinking about the Boston Audio cd stabilizer but at $149 + shipping it's not exactly inexpensive.
Thanks!
Never tried any of those other tweaks, sorry.
I tried, Vibrapods, Cardas Blocks, Ceraballs. I liked the Cardas Blocks best, dont know how diff the Saturn is in weight terms, so have no idea if this is of any help. Sold the Rega soon after i bought it...
v.i.
Million miles from home.
Hi all,
Thanks for your replies guys!
I've been doing some reading and it would appear that Boston Audio tweak kit for Apollo/Saturn specifically may be a good option..
Coolhand I see you also use it so, maybe this could be a good option (I'd love the SAP Relaxa as well but, whew.. getting a tad pricey all combined there!) Nice combo tho..
Thanks everyone else as well for your thoughts - I'll do some exploring.
Much appreciated.
For what it's worth, the only isolation devices I have found to be all encompassing in addressing the micro/macro vibes that kill a components musical fluidity is the Walker Audio STK.
Add an air isolation device in addition to the Walker STK and one has pretty much eliminated/transduced all external/internal micro/macro vibes.
They are not cheap but then no "valid" isolation interface is...
~
Boston Audio Tune Blocks with Tungsten Carbide Bearings were a remarkable improvement in every single aspect of sonic delivery, I used three of them on top of a SAP Relaxa magnetic levitation platform.
Did you try the cd mat that comes with the Boston Acoustics Rega kit?
Or do you just use the TuneBlocks?
I did try it and found that it counteracted the gains achieved by the Tune Blocks !
BTW, the effect of using either of these was EXTREMELY apparent.
I say this, as quite frankly I was quite sceptical as to the results reported in a couple of reviews which I had read....
The effect was actually even more obvious than that of changing my ic's from palladian to my Stealth pure carbon for example.
I had the option to return the Boston Audio products to the dealer, so I took the punt.
Having tried a few other support options which imparted their own obvious signature, or skewed the presentation in some manner, I found much to my delight that the Tune Blocks simply opened up the entire presentation of the Saturn in ALL regards, it became faster, clearer, with MUCH better defined bass and overall presence & with a huge increase in apparent ambience & air up the top, which is where I had found it previously lacking somewhat.
(I'm not sure if it was Rega's intention to shelve the upper freq. response in order to facilitate an aspect of 'analogue ' playback, as far as the removal of the characteristic digital glare which many cd players suffer).
Anyway the exceedingly smooth aspect of the Saturn was not in anyway reduced, simply more 'air' and resolution was liberated in all recordings.... I could not listen to the Rega without the Tune Blocks in place after experiencing this.
Quite unique in my experience, with these footers I could not find any detrimental aspects of their addition under the player.
The harmonic envelope and rich tonality remained, it was not a matter of gaining air and definition, in exchange for a thinnner or more bleached tonal spectrum.
Getting back again to your question of the Boston Audio Mat for the Saturn, IME, this did impart a detrimental and almost inversely proportional reduction of the air gained from the footers !
At first I noted an obvious enhancement of the mid band, voices in particular became easier to follow with increased presence, however this was the only area which gained, to my ears, as a result of a 'bell' type of eq. effect.
Even on notably harsh sounding discs, the loss of definition was undesireable and I would suggest one to 'green' or 'blacken' the edge of the offending cd in question with a marker pen, which can temper the high frequencies, without effecting the rest of the audio band to the extent that the Boston Audio mat does.
What I do still use on occasion with particular discs is the Millenium M-CD Carbon Fibre mat.
This has a similar effect to the Boston Mat, BUT it is much less intrusive whilst still offering a significant reduction of the, let me simply call it 'digital irritation' which some discs appear to suffer from.
I should re-iterate that the above results were obtained with 3 Tune Blocks which were mounted on a SAP Relaxa magnetic platform, so bear this in mind should your experiences differ !
The SAP platform is a superb isolation device which in its own right greatly improved the fidelity of the Saturn by virtue of it's inherent design, and is also highly recommended, as are the Clearaudio Magix 2 footers which are similar type magnetically suspended isolation devices I also employ in my systems.
(Hugely effective in my home which has all suspended timber flooring)!
Thanks for your thoughtful and helpful response.
By the way Coolhand..
Did you try the Magix, the SAP platform or the tuneblocks each by themselves under the Saturn? The Relaxa and Magix are unfrotunately a bit out of my pricerange but, I'd be interested to see if you found (just using one of these under the Saturn) whether you preferred one or the other (or neither over the tuneblocks?)
Thanks!
I did... I won't bore you with the prior extensive footer variations I've tried, which much also take into account the actual rack which all of this was/is mounted upon.My present rack is a custom multiple decoupled constrained layer, low mass, high rigidity type.... Several high mass racks, air platforms, cork/rubber blocks etc... etc... have previously been employed in the room/system but I'm most satisfied with things as they currently remain.
So outside of the above, I initially listened to the Saturn on its own footers, and then progressed to the Relaxa, a very positive step in the right direction towards amelioration of the impact of room generated vibrations, sonically facilitating a much more composed and defined presentation.
The Tuneblocks came after numerous other experiments which, as I outlined in my previous post, made their individual characters all too apparent. I did try both types of bearings in the Tune Blocks also, there was a small but perceptible change of character with the Tungsten Carbide type which I ultimately preferred, when using the TB's on the Relaxa.
This was not apparent to me when using the TB's on the rack surface directly, themselves alone notably clarifying the midbass registers and definition of the Saturn .... however the Relaxa further allows the Saturn to show me what it's capable of, and in conjunction with the TB's became a totally mind blowing transformation, never thought I'd hear 20% of the improvement from nothing more than 'another' hyped up footer, I know it's a clicheŽ, but my better half was as dumbfounded as me, and could not believe the improvement (transformation actually) was the result of the Tune Blocks alone (compared to the Saturn directly on top of the Relaxa)....
We spent a few nights experimenting around the numerous options, bearings, and size of Tune Block, as the dealer gave me a few sizes to try....
It's been a while and honestly I can't recall precisely which I ended up with, without going over to measure them.... O.K, just did......They're the 2.5cm (1") high x 5cm (2") diameter ones.I have yet to try the Magix 2 under the Saturn, they're used with other sources at the moment.... You'll know when you find a fine combo and you'd rather spend time listening to music than the sound of the freekin' feet or whatever ;-))
Maybe when I've gotten about 8 other projects out of the way I'll get back to more experimenting with the Saturn which is not in the main system presently.As much as I rave of the Tune Blocks (which are IMHE, likely the most bang for buck sound enhancements I've yet to have used), I hesitate to ascribe the profound improvements I experienced to them alone.
One must constantly remember that EVERY SINGLE component interacts with every other, synergy is often talked about in context of speakers & amps, cable matching etc... but my experiences can leave not a single stone unturned when referring to synergy, the room, its material construction and its contents being MAJOR contributors amongst many others which are often not related to when one reads (or writes)reviews.
I think the graphite material employed by Boston Audio is a remarkable medium with quite apparently unique properties which I personally would like to explore much more deeply in various other aspects of my system designs, in fact I do also use the excellent Boston Audio MAT 1, which is a turntable platter mat.... but that's yet another personal account for another thread .....
BTW: At a much later date, I went deeply into the guts of the Saturn and it was modified with extensive clock and output stage enhancements/modifications which can be read about in the Digital asylum.
This rather musical digital source has a heck of a lot of further potential to tap into if you already dig its essential and quite unique core character !
Edits: 12/02/10
Coolhand..
Well, you've outdone yourself here my friend! Such an extensive and detailed response. You have no idea how much this helps potential buyers. Thankyou!!
Yeah so it seems those tuneblocks you have there (based on your measurements) are the standard version. I've been thinking (potentially) about springing for the dearer ones (the XT or SE models..) But again, unsure if it would be overkill or not - I know sometimes when it comes to isolation, the dearer products sometimes aren't always better - as you said it depends on how each component reacts to the particular dimensions/specifications of the product. There are no rules and it's all about experimentation.
That Sap Relaxa sounds fantastic. If you ever plan on selling it, let me be the first to know haha! (Yeah right - it sounds like you've got a match made in heaven there why would you break that up =).
At the end of the day though your post has made my decision much easier - you're a Saturn user and have said the tuneblocks on their own are a great upgrade. I think this is all I need to go ahead with them.
Thanks again and I can't express my appreciation enough!
Andrew
After talking with Boston Audio they recommend using four Tuneblocks for the Saturn (not the usually recommended three). Apparently the heatsink on the bottom of the Saturn makes it tricky placing 3 Tuneblocks in a stable layout. Four tuneblocks makes it easier.
Edits: 12/02/10
Trying theTuneBlocks out on the Saturn now.
Considerable change in sound. Much nicer top end, cleaner more defined, but much diminished bass and lower midrange. I need a bit more time with the new sound to decide if I like it overall.
Wow...
Thanks Coolhand!
I couldn't have asked for a better response to my post than this! This is just the kind of detail I was after.. Saturn users and their isolation experience.
So interesting your thoughts on the tuneblocks excluding the cd stabilizer.
Can I ask which tuneblocks you purchased? Not using the stabilizer throws another perspective on all this, as tuneblocks come in a variety of incarnations. ie, if you didn't spend the money on the stabilizer ($159) you may as well put the money towards the best tuneblocks (the XT version I believe?) with the TC upgrade.
Which version of the tuneblocks are you using? Is it the one that comes with the Rega Saturn kit? (The Tuneblocks standard with TC upgrade I believe?)
Thanks!
I don't know how effective the Ceraball devices are compared to Symposium Rollerblock for giving horizontal freedom. I made some roller ball isolation devices for my Wadia 861 that work very well: ball bearings in spoon bowls with the stock Wadia feet removed and the bottom of the case resting directly on the bearings.
One question for you is how much horizontal vibration gets to your CD player. I have a rigid rack spiked to a carpeted plywood suspended floor. The floor vibrates like a drum head, so the rack translates this motion into horizontal vibration that increases with height from the floor.
The Wadia is a heavy piece, so it has a very low natural frequency on the DIY roller ball devices. The cables and power cord are dressed to allow easy motion (or improved isolation). You may need to add mass to your Rega to achieve a good, low natural frequency on similar suspension devices.
I would also investigate damping the aluminum casework, if it is not already damped.
Alan Maher's Signature Circuit Breaker Filters above and below the player may also improve performance.
I tried coupling with two different types of cones and alternatively tried isolation with rubber, sorbothane and Herbies Tenderfeet (which i love on all other electronics) and found nothing sounded as good as the stock feet.Would also like to hear of other peoples experiences.
Edits: 11/29/10 11/29/10
I ended up copying the Walker Audio type and have a slab of maple on spikes with the Apollo sitting on top using homemade brass and porcelain isolators underneath the player. It seems that the mass of the maple does give more detail/bass as do the isolators. The biggest change is using an Oyaide R-1 outlet as these other tweaks are less evident. Using heavy brass over the top of the cd also affects the sound, not sure which direction though. thanks.
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