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In Reply to: RE: Best-sounding GFCI outlet? posted by Neuro on September 17, 2008 at 11:39:19
and have Bybees installed for the HT system and it is also plugged into a P.S.Audio Soloist. Do I really need the GFCI?
Follow Ups:
Nils
I hadn't contemplated a wiring change...but I do now.
jea
I've touched it many times without any problems(it sits on the floor next to the CRT). What situation could arise that would aside from spilled liquid that would cause a shock?
> > I've touched it many times without any problems(it sits on the floor next to the CRT). What situation could arise that would aside from spilled liquid that would cause a shock? < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Glen B touched on a couple of the problems in his first post that for some reason he deleted.
One of the examples Glen gave was an incandescent lamp.
If you look at a lamp holder the center contact connects the hot conductor and the outer shell of the lamp holder connects to the neutral, the grounded conductor. The plug on the cord of the lamp is polarized so the plug can only plug into the receptacle so the shell of the lamp is always at ground potential. So if you change the light bulb in a lamp, whether the switch is on or off, you should never receive an electrical shock if your fingers are touching the shell of the bulb and lamp holder as you screw the bulb in or out as some other part of your body may be grounded. It is a safety thing.
But you can't say the with a balanced power system. If a lamp is plugged into a receptacle fed from a balanced power system the shell will be hot with a difference of potential to ground of 60Vac.. 60 volts will kill you just the same as 120V. That is why NEC says certain types of light fixtures shall not be fed from a balanced power system.And just to make it as idiot proof for someone who does, just one of the reasons NEC requires GFCI protection.
Again Glen touched on the fact that audio equipment may only break one Line and install a fuse only on that Line.
So if the switch is open the flow of current is stopped and the equipment is off. As Glen said with the balanced system the other side of the Line feeding the equipment is still Hot. Glen stopped at this point, not sure why.....
So the switch is open the unit is off. I agree.
But what if on the Line side of the switch/fuse for what ever reason a ground fault occurs...... No problem the fuse blows, current flow stops.
But wait a minute......, the other Line is still Hot, And there still is current flow. From the Hot Line through the primary winding of the equipment power transformer on out through the ground fault out the equipment grounding conductor back to the source. Not sure what happens if only 60 Volts is now feeding your preamp. Again with GFIC protection this cannot happen.
Using the same example as above, and for what ever reason, the equipment ground becomes open after the fuse blows.... Don't know why but it happened.
Maybe at the time the fuse blew you was out getting a beer or something. You come back into the room, no sound what the hell. You lean down and rest your hand on another piece of grounded equipment and touch the NOW HOT CASE of the preamp. You will have 60Vac going across your heart.
Far fetched? Maybe..... But with GFCI protection it should never happen.
Bottom line, just be careful.
For every possibility we can imagine, there are uncountable many others that we cannot.
We once had a fairly decent floor lamp with a base formed of sheet metal. The cord came out from underneath it. We had it on plush carpet, so the cord was in casual contact with the underside edge of the metal: it had feet, but these were sunk into the carpet.
One day, my wife was vacuuming the carpet. When the vacuum cleaner touched the lamp base, the vibration caused the metal edge to act like a saw and cut the cord insulation, with spectacular results. No one harmed, but it certainly got her attention.
Lots more AFCI protection as well as GFCI.
JMHO by the next code update, 2011 all convenience, as well as dedicated, outlets in residential occupancies will be required to be either AFCI or GFCI protected.
Here are just a few of the changes
I had to look up AFCI's. They sound like the very ticket to pull the fangs of those miserable night-lights that use Christmas tree bulbs and feature the arc-o-matic switchs.
Rick
Thanks Howard.
I have an older Equitech with Decora-style outlets as well. It looks like any outlet would work -- I'm still debating which receptacles I will use.
Did you replace the internal wiring? I'm considering using quality solid-core wiring (perhaps the Cardas wiring sans outer jacket.
-- Nils
Do I really need the GFCI? ...................
If the room is 100% secure from other people other than you, the choice is yours.
If on the other hand there is a chance, even remote, that children or even your wife could have contact with your equipment then the answer should be yes.
Just for your information a 60> 0 <60 Ac balanced hard wired system in a residential dwelling is a violation of NEC code here in the US.
They are only approved for use in commercial/industrial facilties.
They must be under close supervision of qualified personell.
They must be GFCI protected.
All electrical outlets must be labled that they are fed from a balanced power system.
There are a few more stipulations that must be meant as well.
"Just for your information a 60> 0 <60 Ac balanced hard wired system in a residential dwelling is a violation of NEC code here in the US."
Everyone should be aware that the key words here are "residential" and "hard wired".
Yes, it is an NEC violation to hard wire a balanced power transformer into a residential power grid. However, using a seperate balanced power conditioner that plugs into an AC receptacle, and the balanced power outlets are contained in the unit, is not an NEC violation.
NEC jurasdiction stops at the wall outlet and even though there is nothing in the NEC code that directly addresses a balanced power conditioners use in a residential dwelling, they fall under the "self contained" category.
Cheers,
~kenster
Are the self contained cord and plug type balanced power systems UL/CSA Listed for residential occupancies?
I honestly do not know the answer, but my gut tells me they are not.
The "mystery" surrounding a self contained balanced power conditioner's use in a residential dwelling should be addressed by the NEC if it is THAT important, don't you think?
The people who govern the NEC have concured that balanced power is a viable option and have set certain criteria that have to be met in an industrial setting but have yet to address the issue in the residential environment in a clear manner...why?
> > The people who govern the NEC have concured that balanced power is a viable option and have set certain criteria that have to be met in an industrial setting but have yet to address the issue in the residential environment in a clear manner...why? < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Sure they have.... They are not to be used in a residential occupancy.
NEC says a balanced power system shall be under the control and supervision of qualified personnel. One thing for sure, the "qualified personnel" would not remove the GFCI protection.
"Sure they have.... They are not to be used in a residential occupancy."
With all due respect..no they haven't. There is nothing in the NEC code that stipulates a self contained balanced power conditioner is not to be used in a residential setting. Hard wiring a balanced power transformer into a residential power grid is against NEC but show me where using a balanced power conditioner in a residenatail setting is against NEC?
" One thing for sure, the "qualified personnel" would not remove the GFCI protection."
Who said anything about removing a GFCI?
Mind you, I have no dog in this fight, just trying to establish a baseline on residential use of balanced power of which the NEC is very vague in their stipulations and if it is such a big issue, how can Platinum Power, BPT, Equitech and others provide balanced power components to the consumer with no legal ramifications?
Cheers
> > There is nothing in the NEC code that stipulates a self contained balanced power conditioner is not to be used in a residential setting. < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nor will there or should there be. That is outside the scope of NEC.
Like I said in an earlier post I do not know if cord and plug balanced power systems are Listed for residential occupancies.You could find out for sure. Just contact any manufactures of the devices and ask them if their units are Listed for home use.
===================> > " One thing for sure, the "qualified personnel" would not remove the GFCI protection."
Who said anything about removing a GFCI? < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Maybe you should take the time to read all of the responses given in this thread.
==============> > Mind you, I have no dog in this fight, just trying to establish a baseline on residential use of balanced power of which the NEC is very vague in their stipulations and if it is such a big issue, how can Platinum Power, BPT, Equitech and others provide balanced power components to the consumer with no legal ramifications? < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Again contact these manufactures, ask them point blank if their 60/120Vac equipment is Listed by UL or CSA or any other recognized Listing agency for home use. If the answer is yes I am sure they would be more than happy to send you a copy of the Testing agencies specific uses for the equipment.
As for NEC they are quite clear where and what balanced power, 60> 0 <60 can be used for.
======================I am not here to tell someone whether they should or should not be using a 60/120Vac system in their home. My only intent is to inform the readers of this forum what NEC has to say about it.
Bottom line just be careful.
Do not defeat any safetys.
Test the GFCI protection on a regular basis. Keep a log, when was the last time it was tested.
Make sure all other family members understand though the outlets may look like any other outlet in the house, the power source is not the same. And they should never use the outlets. They are strickly for your audio equipment.
=====================Here is some food for thought.
Under the new NEC 2008 Code all 120Vac receptacle outlets in a basement shall be GFCI protected, no exceptions.Now this does not affect existing homes and installations but it will effect new homes and new branch circuit installs in existing homes.
As of now not all cities and States have adopted the NEC 2008 Code. For instance in my City and surrounding cities the 2008 Code will not go into effect until January of 2009.
Here is another 2008 code change that could be interesting.
All conveniece outlets in a residencial occupanies shall be the child proof tamper resistant type.
Suppose Oyaide is working on that one as we speak?
===================================
"You could find out for sure. Just contact any manufactures of the devices and ask them if their units are Listed for home use."
LOL, why should I have to ask manufacturer, shouldn't it be clearly documented in the NEC code if it was such a big deal?
"Maybe you should take the time to read all of the responses given in this thread."
Please don't insult my inteligence brother, I was responding to you.
"As for NEC they are quite clear where and what balanced power, 60> 0 <60 can be used for."
When it comes to residentail self contained balanced power units, no they don't. Show me the NEC code that prohibits a self contained balanced power units use in a residential dwelling?
"All conveniece outlets in a residencial occupanies shall be the child proof tamper resistant type."
What the hell does that mean? Should we wear helmets when plugging in our components? Jebus fuckin' christ man, we are turning into a fucking nanny state...this has to stop!!!!
"You could find out for sure. Just contact any manufactures of the devices and ask them if their units are Listed for home use."LOL, why should I have to ask manufacturer, shouldn't it be clearly documented in the NEC code if it was such a big deal?
No
"Maybe you should take the time to read all of the responses given in this thread."Please don't insult my inteligence brother, I was responding to you.
Your ignorance is showing. I'll let others reading your response decide your intelligence"As for NEC they are quite clear where and what balanced power, 60> 0 <60 can be used for."
When it comes to residentail self contained balanced power units, no they don't. Show me the NEC code that prohibits a self contained balanced power units use in a residential dwelling?
Like I said before, if a piece of manufactured equipment has a cord and plug then the equipment does not fall under the jurisdiction of NEC.
The equipment should be tested and Listed by UL or CSA, or some accepted testing agency."All convenience outlets in a residential occupancies shall be the child proof tamper resistant type."
What the hell does that mean? Should we wear helmets when plugging in our components? Jebus fuckin' christ man, we are turning into a fucking nanny state...this has to stop!!!!
...I apologize if my levity offended you...
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