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I was wanting to treat my whole rear wall (behind speakers, not my head)in my dedicated listening room. I have a set of french doors behind left speaker, and a closet door (where I keep equipment)to the right of the right speaker. I am currently using 2 - 13 inch tube traps in corners behind speakers. I also have a rug hung on wall between speakers, as well as 3 asc sound planks above doors, and 2 in middle of speakers. I would (and my wife) like to have a cleaner look and wondered if I could just get some thin rockwool and cover over in batting and burlap and hang on wall completely covering it?
I wanted to put up drape over windows on french doors but wife didn't like that idea.
The wall behind speakers is an interior wall and is not load bearing. I doubt it is even full of insulation. Would I be better off removing drywall (yikes I can hear the wife complaining about the dust and mess), and putting in fiberglass as per John Risch's wall panel recipe, then batting and burlap? I realize I would lose some LF absorption from not being away from wall.
Should I just build 3 wall panels and put in place in front of french doors when listening?
I would love an easier fix if possible, but will do what is best for the sound.
Before I hung the rug, I could hear a little upper mid glimmer. Now if I could just make it pretty!
Also if I removed drywall, and did fiberglass could I ditch the tube traps?
Would love your input from those who know!
Thanks,
James Locke
Follow Ups:
..but you knew that
Cheers
Honeycomb shades would remove the reflection from the glass and doesn't over damp the room. Check the link...
This is an interesting thread. A couple of things come to mind - if it were my room . . . .1. That open walkway on your right side. It's a bigger bass trap/absorber than anything you could ever make or buy. The sound, and more importantly the pressure, essentially leaves the room there. It's a suck out. That suck out will have more of a negative impact when it is to your right or left (like it is now), than if it is behind your listening seat. The opening (the suck out) can be behind you though, and not even be perfectly symetrical with good results. I have a similar situation over here at my house. The music passes by me and essentially keeps going through the opening into the rest of the house. There is some rear wall behind me and to the right, but no wall behind me and to the center or left. The stereo image is fine in my room, and I have even had dipoles in here with good results.
If you put that opening behind your listening seat you can further compensate for the non symetrical rear reflections by placing a decorative room screen to your rear left, i.e. from the corner to almost the center of the opening. This will add some rear reflections to the rear left in the mid and treble region. Your wife can pick out the decorative room screen and be part of the process. She will like that. She'll want it to match the other room, I'm sure.
2. Something not mentioned yet, but I feel is extremely important. The location of your source components and preamp. I would rather have all of the equipment very close together with short cables than have nothing in between the speakers. To me, what you lose by having extra long cables you do not make up for with emptiness between the two speakers. This is a personal thing I know, but I think that if you are moving stuff around anyway you should explore that idea.
3. How does it sound right now? I didn't read where you were unsatisfied with the current set up, only that you feel like you should try to improve it. That's cool, but don't buy anything until you've actually moved things around and listened for a while. BTW, I think that your room looks very nice right now except for the tube traps and audiophile panels. Move it around and see what you can do for free before you become an acoustic engineer.
James,
I am not sure if this will meet your aesthetic requirements or if you are willing to do a little bit of pushing and sliding for your serious listening sessions, but I built a number of these Jon Risch absorption panels that are completely freestanding and can easily be moved around the room. The one pictured is positioned to cover a side wall first reflection in front of a cabinet built into the wall that houses my records. I have to slide it out of the way to get to my records, but the MDF base I used makes it very easy to slide on the carpet.
You could use one of these in front of your French doors for serious listening and then slide it out of the way afterwards. You could even mount casters on the bottom of the base to make it even easier to move. One should also be used behind the right speaker as well to maintain symmetry. If beneficial, another could be used on the wall between the two speakers.
At 10" thickness, I have had no problems with the room sounding dead at all. They do a wonderful job of controlling reflections and tightening up the bass. Best of luck to you in getting this resolved.
Thanks
Hi.
I can't focus on my music if I see people walking around. Obviously you're in such situation as there is traffic behind the see-through french door as your wife doesn't like you cover it up.
IMO, this is already not the best orientation of your equipment layout to start with let alone the acoustic issues to address with the glass door, etc etc.
I have a similar situation, but much better. My sound room is basically the whole basement in a long rectangular shape, where my wife & my two grown-up boys seldom come down. So no traffic distraction.
However to get full focus in the music, I decided to set up my rig along the shorter back wall of the basement. So I only see my rig while listening rather than a full view of my basement.
If your home layout allows you to turn around your equipment with french door partition behind you, I bet you can be more foucs in your music, & therefore enjoy more.
c-J
I am about to address the flipping around angle with pics in other post.
Thanks,
James Locke
Hi.
with the photo of showing part of yr listening room.
Here is my suggestion basing on the limited info you so far furnished:-
(1) this is apparently a somewhat rectangular room & yu are listening along the short side. Pretty close to yr loudspeakers.
(2) the open space beyond the right loudspeaker. Avoid it if possible.
I would suggest you swing yr loudspeakers (& therefore tube power amps) 90 degree to your left (anti-clockwise) so that they will be sitting some distance from yr side wall with curtain & jelly acoustical treatment covering the window bank behind.
Get rid of the long sofa & replace it with a smaller sofa or reclined leather lazyboy or even a smaller lover seat if your wife also shares your hobby.
Now you will have yr sweet spot at a much longer throw from the loudspeakers, which you need so badly & have the acoustical headache much much reduced from the french door partition which will be at your right, instead of at the back of yr loudspeakers, the most crucial acoutical part of a sound room.
Then you can focuss at your music without distraction from the traffic behind the french door anymore. My way.
Even better acoustically, you allow the music flow through well beyond yr sweet spot into the other room which will definitely give you much more spaceous & ambience feeling of the performance from your LPs particularly (I know as I own many hundreds of vinyls).
Would it be much better considering yu are now listening up against the back wall with a tall pile of LPs stuffed up? Acoustically unsound, my friend.
You don't have to move your equipment rack any more though I would suggest you to move the rack of your LPs into the other room if space available. Tall racks of LPs only worsen the acosutics as they defuse the FIRST reflected wave from yr loudspeaker to your ears.
Just my way. It's your choice.
c-J
If I change 90 degrees to left like you suggest, what do you think about the fact that I will then have a wall behing me on speaker right side and open on the left. Do you think that this be be a problem? I have taken a pic sitting directly center facing what would be rear wall in that position so you can see for your self.
Sofa is just a love seat
My listening postion is over 3 feet away from records, and over 4 feet from the wall
Room is 164x200 inches
You say sweet spot better - farther from speakers, but won't I be closer to speakers in this set-up since room won't be as deep? If it was completely open behind me I would try without hesitation.
I would still have to move equipment out of closet, or have to get longer rca cables (15 feet already)
Thanks for the input
James Locke
Hi.
What "open on the left"? The second photo showed most part of the rear wall, showing part of the long lover seat, but no opening. Why don't you show us all four sides of the room to be be clear.
A large opening, even though not completely open without any wall is better than you now sitting only a few feet with the rear wall stuffed with tall LP racks.
A 13ft x 17ft room is not too small given proper clearing out & re-arrangement. Less means more, my friend.
If I were to design such a layout, I would do what I just sugested, with the sweet spot backing the adjoining living room opening/wall. I'd surely get a small single seat so as not to block the entry to the living room at the back.
c-J
Here is foruth pic so you can see all 4 walls.
What I was trying to say in other post was that if I set up on long wall with curtains in this fourth pic behind them like you suggested would the fact that I now have a partial wall behind me, and not completely open (view of pic 3)be a problem?
And would I not, in that set up, be sitting closer to back wall (part that is not open, other part would be open)than in my current arrangement? Do you not think that would also be a problem?
One more question, would you definately feel this arrangment would be better than flipping my current set up onto opposite wall?
And should I ditch the records? I can do that.
Just want to figure these things out before I start dragging the equipment around
Thanks for the patience,
James Locke
Hi.
Is the window wall, a real permanent wall or a wide patio door exit to yr backyard, popular to many North American home designs.
c-J
But it has a bank of 3 windows that are each 6 feet tall & 3 feet wide.
Hi.
What ceiling & ceiling finish is it since yr photos did not show? Hard paster or what? Hollow or solid?
What distance are you now stting from the loudspeakers? It looks pretty too close to you considering the size of them.
Are you happy to add or replace the drapes now covering the window wall with a heavier thick cotton or woollen curtain to block out the sunlight while you are playing the music?
Again I have a very busy morning & I got to rush out for a lunch meeting now. Let me reply you tomorrow.
c-J
Those doors are not going to make things easy to improve over what you have already done.
Is it possible to use the other end of the room for the speakers, or is there a large window there?
Barring that approach, and a more conventional arrangement of sound absorbers, there are a few things you could do.
Use the other two sound panels in the rug area, and use them to cover as much of the still bare wall (not covered by the rug) as possible.
Make some DIY corner tunes (do a search) for the front corners, and move the sound panels along the top rear wall toward the middle to make room for the DIY corner tunes.
It looks like you have a window on the left of the left speaker, and a wall on the right of the right speaker, this can be a problem for imaging, and the best way to try and 'equalize' the two side walls acoustically, would be to use some DIY room lens at each location.
Treating the whole rear wall, while it may do some good, should not be done with a too thin layer all over, which is what it sounds like you are proposing. The spot approach with thicker panel's or absorbers is better. In your case, there is so much 'door' on the rear wall, that it just makes it harder to do some good. The doors are unbalanced too, and this is also a problem for the remaining space and where to place the absorbers,
Symmetry is best, and even if it means less total absorbing material.
Removing drywall to install fiberglass can work, it is a 'brute-force' approach, but it's effectivenes is much less than that of the Tube Traps, unless you make the amount (depth) of fiberglass as deep as 6-8", instead of the 2-3" that a 2X4 depth allows. Thus, in order for it to be very effective, you would need to "lose" some room volume, by bringing the surface of the fiberglass covering out into ther room.
Yeah, I know, nothing really good is ever easy.
Try replacing the rug with an nearly equal area of thick fiberglass (at least 6") temporarily, center it with respect to the speakers and the room, and see if that does it for you acoustically.
Good luck!
Jon Risch
I could flip it around to opposite wall. That would mean that I would have components no longer in closet, which would in turn mean that my stand (Arcici Suspense walnut replica)would have to jet out from back wall between speakers (28 inches or so). Other reason is open on one wall (see pic), don't know whether this also would be bad.Other wall is bank of windows covered in gel things and a heavy curtain that is closed when I listen. I give it a try if you want, but understand that to move this would involve moving records to another room (1000 records are heavy), loss of records as acoustic help, and subjecting my tube equipment (Art Audio Vinyl One, AR LS-17, and Sota turntable with SME 5 arm and Koetsu cartridge)to the blows of the Vandersteen rear firing woofer. But if the sound will be better, I'll give it a go.
I will definately build the DIY corner traps as suggested by you and unclestu.
I will also experiment with a fiberglass sheet as you suggested. I agree about the symmertrical as the sound, to me, always seems to chase the acoustic panels. It is very noticable when the center panel is off, even a couple of inches, how the center image will shift with treatment.
I really dont want to stuff 6-8 inches of drywall in rear wall so I'll take that option off the table. Should I just build one of your panels and hang it in center for more absorption that ASC planks. I guess I'm also stuck with the tube traps in the corners.
I will also check out the diffussors. I havwe some extra walnut, and I bet I could make them pretty.
Thanks for your time and help,
James Locke
Maybe I can help here. I've got a L-shaped room and the toe of the L is behind me and to my left, like the space through your open archway. My right speaker faces a wall to my right just behind the plane of the listening space and the left speaker faces a wall 3 metres further back than that.
Pretty much everyone here has been very strong on symmetry for very good reason. The soundstage tends to become unbalanced when things are asymmetrical. In my room, if I remove the acoustic treatments the soundstage pulls strongly to the left where there is a stronger reflection from the wall since I also have an open arch to the hallway on the right of my right speaker. Those problems can be dealt with but they can sometimes be difficult and it's often hard to predict what will work best in advance. Dealing with asymmetric rooms can be a real puzzle.
If you rotate the room 90 degrees to the left, which I think would have some advantages, these are my suggestions:
1-rotate the bass traps on the wall behind the speakers 90 degrees as well;
2-cover the windows with heavier drapes than the sheers already there. It is also possible to get noise absorbing curtain liners intended to block outside noise by absorption. They absorb internal sound as well. Use them if possible. You won't see them, they're a second curtain hidden behind the first one, so people won't notice and that's a good thing with acoustic treatments in many ways. You can open the curtains when you aren't listening so that the room is more light but the room will be dim if you do a fair amount of daytime listening.
3- the right side (the wall currently behind the speakers) may need some treatment and you've got some there already. It may be enough so start off leaving things how they currently are and spend some time—I mean a couple of days—just listening to things with the speakers and bass traps moved 90 degrees to the left and some absorption on the windows behind the speakers. In the short term before you get heavier curtains there, you can simply try some gel thingies on those windows and just hanging a blanket or two from the existing curtain rail to get an idea of what things are going to be like. That also allows you to shift things back to where they are now without having made any big expenditures if you don't like it.
4-if you find the soundstage pulling to the right, then there's too much reflection from the right side. Locate the early reflection point (location will depend on where the sofa or chairs end up) and treat the area there along the lines Jon Risch suggested. If the reflection point falls on one of the doors (I think that's unlikely), use a free standing acoustic panel in front of the door.
5-leave the discs where they are on the left. You may need to put some absorption there if the soundstage pulls to the left but if you do simply use a free-standing panel placed in front of the discs at the site of the early reflection point. You're going to have to juggle what you do on the left and right at the same time because one will affect the other but the trick is to use absorption to balance things. You won't succeed very easily if you try increasing the reflectivity of the side that's lower in reflectivity but simply using absorption on both sides will balance things and it also helps produce a stronger soundstage into the bargain.
6-that leaves the wall behind you, currently the right wall. There's going to be a bit of experimentation here and it may take some time to get things right. I'm going to assume that you aren't going to want acoustic treatments in the adjoining space. The options that I would be trying, based on guesses of how things will sound, are:
a) play with speaker toe-in;
b) bass traps in those 2 room corners also;
c) absorption on the wall area next to the archway;
d) a free standing panel behind you to block some of the reflected sound from the other room. It would need to be a fair sized panel, the full width of your sofa if you keep the sofa, but otherwise around 3' or so wide at least, the size Jon Risch recommends as a minimum for his DIY panels.
You may or may not end up having to use one or more of those suggestions but I would bet on having to use one or two. Speaker toe-in will make a difference and I have my speakers pointed directly at the listening position because that puts me on axis and ensures any reflections from behind me or from the wall to my right that the right speaker faces are going to weaker because they're coming from further off axis than the direct sound. That fact helps a lot and actually lets me get away without having to treat the wall my right speaker faces. Playing with toe in is simple, free, and easily reversible. The only down side is that it can be time consuming.
It's hard to predict what that room that will end up behind you will do to the sound. It will create a problem of some kind, but it also gives you a longer dimension for one speaker to fire into and that will provide a lower standing wave frequency which, while it sounds problematic, need not be and it can actually help since the lower the lowest standing wave frequencies, the earlier the room's sound starts to smooth out. The problem with standing waves really isn't that they exist, it's that there's only two or three per octave at low frequencies. When the number builds to 5 or 6 per octave there's enough overlap to start smoothing out the dips and peaks in room response and this happens earlier (ie at a lower frequency) when the lowest standing wave frequencies are lower in frequency.
So there's some suggestions. The 90 degree rotation may actually end up being relatively simple with the exception of what you do with the open entrance that you end up with behind you. Even that may not be too much of a problem but that's impossible to predict and it is going to be a matter of trying the rotation to find out.
Hope the above ideas help somewhat.
David Aiken
Now that I have seen a photo of the other end of the room, Dave's suggestions have merit, and would be at least as effective as totally reversing the room, etc.
For a quick taste of what it might sound like, adn without moving all of your gear, etc., use some long temporary speaker cables (even 12 ga. zip cord would be good enough for a taste of the soundstage and overall presentation), and experiment with the speaker placement, toe-in, and the placement of the acoustic treatments.
Then, once you find a set-up you like, decide what to do permanantly in terms of the location of the gear.
Jon Risch
Hi.
Since you did not post the layout of your listening room, we are guessing here. Is it possible to turn the whole setup around if behind your head is a wall?
c-J
Since you are the diy EXPERT
Try a couple of things before going the construction route:
1. temporarily place the corner tube traps on a stool to raise them as high as possible. If you like the effect, you can duplicate the effect by placing a triangular piece of drywall into the upper corners of the room and simply mud it in and paint it to blend in the with the walls.
2. try simply opening the doors: both the French doors and the closet when listening. You'll eliminate the reflections and give the speakers a 'larger' room and thus propagate better bass: cleaner and less boomy.
3. take the center ASC Sound Plank and place smack between your amps, edge pointing towards your listening position. That should give you significantly netter imaging and center focus.
All above are easily reversible of course, and I would suggest doing one thing at a time in order to evaluate each change.
Good luck
Stu
I had foam in corners in previous listening room. I like your idea of just puitting in some drywall. Do you build a frame, or just tack piece in place? I'll try your stool idea.
French doors open into room, and would be in the way (still would have reflection off glass, now just more between speakers and on left wall. I will try those gel things suggested in other post. I don't think my bass is muddy or boomy. Its the upper mid, i think, harshness that is why I'm wanting to add the treatment. The rug hanging helps this, so this is why I was wanting to have a system that completely covered wall. I would still have plenty of untreated areas on french doors and other door.
As for the ASC sound plank, I have 2 I'm not using. So i should put between amps & speakers, not on wall? Am I reading you right?
Thanks for all your help so far!
James Locke
In previous rooms, I simply stuck on a piece of drywall securing it with a few screws and then taped it in blending it into the existing walls. It won't be load bearing so there is no need for bracing. I got the idea from the Corner tunes that Mike Greene makes. He actually recommends the reflective side outward and I figured why not try drywall for the cosmetics. It worked great, and while some other s I know have stuffed the corners with a bit of fiberglass, mine were empty. I actually extended them all the way to the floor for better aesthetics, but I did at that point, add a few wooden cross braces since I elected to make them 16 inches wide (again for aesthetics).
AS for the doors, try opening the outboard side all the way into the room. It will still be reflective to a degree, but the Vandersteen's rear woofer will vent into the room behind and lower the reflective sound. Do the same for the closet door, just as an experiment.
I had a friend who, in exasperation, actually installed drapes across the room. It kept the significant other happy and he could eliminate all the other wall treatments. While he used a fairly heavy material even lighter gauzy material will have a significant impact on reflective sound, and if, aesthetics matter, you may wish to experiment with.
As for the extra Sound Planks, by all means try placing them between the speakers for more precise imaging. It is sort of counter intuitive, but then it is easily reversible. Again have them face you edgewise directly between the speakers.
Stu
I will do some more experimenting with door between left speaker open as you suggested. I guess I could just pull out french door and leave open. I hestitate to leave closet open as vibrations seem to effect equipment, although I will even try that (maybe just for a minute though).
I experimented with putting a sound plank between amps. It did bring central image into focus, but also seemed to pull in other instruments making soundstage smaller. It was similar to when I change from vinyl to cd (soundstage only, not commenting on sound of the 2 sources). I tried it back and forth over several songs. At first it was weird looking at the plank between speakers so I closed my eyes and just listened. I don't know if it was that I'm already listening at near nearfield position, so compression of soundstage, might have been overemphasized. Anyway, ultimately I liked it better closer to rear wall.
As for my original question do you know of a good material to cover whole wall? I don't think the drape thing would work with the 3 doors there. And if I removed drywall (would probably do a couple feet of adjacent walls also) could I get rid of tube traps and only have the wall a rear treatment.
Thanks again for all your help!
James Locke
If you like the strong central focus but feel the soundstage has shrunk you could compensate by setting the speakers a little more forward facing, with a little less toe in, or perhaps spacing the speakers farther apart. It also helps to play with the forward and backward position of the plank.
If you have the space, and since you have two extra planks, setting them up in a V formation with the point towards you also works very well and the angle of the V will determine the sound stage width.
I don't know if there is enough space between your amps though, although placing the set up slightly behind the plane of the speakers is also very helpful.
As for the wall covering, I believe what you really need is cut the reflective surface. The glass and the solid closet doors are the most obvious sources. The upper corner of the room is also a culprit, where the ceiling line meets the walls. The major issue in most rooms is the corners where the two walls and the ceiling meet.
Most often is you simply talk out loudly you will hear an echo as you approach those corners (you can clap your hands too as a test). Almost invariably I hear a slight echo when speaking into the corners and it is important to dampen those areas where the echos propagate.
My philosophy, to keep peace in the family, has been to use minimal treatment as usually bits of foam and other acoustical treatments do not go over well with the wife. As I earlier recommended before drywalling the corner, simply elevate the tube traps, and if that helps. you are on your way to a simpler, and more inconspicuous solution.
I doubt if you will hear much echo in the center of the back wall, but if you do you could drywall in a angled strip across the room, beveling the 90 degree interface between the wall and the ceiling.
Stu
I simply placed a piece of painters tape to join one end bwetween planks and spead them about 6 inches apart at bottom.
I experimented more today. I also put tube traps on 2 milk crates a piece to raise them up as you suggested. I heard a def improvement and will make some diy corner tunes asap. Should I do all 4 corners, or will the 2 suffice?
I also did some listening with doors open again. While it improved my problem the bass wass uneven and pretty much gone.
Maybe it wasn't overall soundstage shrinkage as much as it pulled all instruments to center equipment. I like the vocals better when I really had it cranked, but seemed to get in way a more realistic listening levels.
Leaning towards changing walls right now as many have suggested.
Thanks for all your help,
James locke
Your speakers are bipoles, I believe. It is likely that you need to limit the treatment of the wall behind them to the area where you would see your reflection if that wall were covered with mirrors. Too much treatment, or treatment of too much area, will reduce the benefit of the reflected sound that your speakers were designed to produce.
Experiment carefully, starting with a small area treatment of a few square feet. A folded wool blanket is good for experiments.
The glass panes in the doors are not good for your audio system performance. Each one resonates and beams the distorted reflected sound. Treatments of the glass can be done with gel-type window decorations, found in stores that sell holiday decorations. These adhere without adhesive and can be removed easily.
Bass has a bit more authority, and it did alleviate some of the issue that made me want to modify rear wall.
Thanks
James Locke
:)
I used some of those on the corners of the window panes of my room. They seemed to help as well.
Very cheap to experiment with...and come in a variety of sizes.
Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it.
--Celine
I will try the gel things on my french doors. Thanks! I was looking for cheaper alternative to those audiophile devices sold.
but they do have a rear facing (sub) woofer
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
One in the middle pane of each French door; one in the center of the door; and most important one in the center of the wall between the door and French doors. These are quite small but black. You would need to get rid of the rug, the acoustic panels and tube traps. She probably would accept that as a compromise for the four small dots.
How do these work. I'm a bit skeptical, but would love for it to work.
Anyone else cooment on these?
Thanks,
James Locke
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