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The power conditioning options are much more extensive in the audiophile world than in the music production world, so I am seeking your assistance. I am trying to put together a portable rig that would include a couple of keyboard-synthesizers (Kurzweil K2661 and Yamaha Motif SX6) and a pair of Motion Sound 100-watt keyboard amps. I purchased some Xantrex PowerPack 600HD batteries, and discovered that when I plug in the amps, they emit an obnoxious buzz. Neither a Furman Elite 15 Power Filter nor a Furman IT-1210 Balanced Power Transformer quelled the buzz. In fact, the Furmans themselves began to buzz when I plugged them into the batteries. I suspect that the problem is that the inverters on the batteries produce modified square wave AC and my gear needs pure sine wave AC. So my question is, What power conditioner would work best for my purposes? The PS Audio Power Plant Premier seems like it would take care of the problem, but I would prefer to purchase a lighter weight and less costly power conditioner – if it could do what I need it to do. Would a PS Audio UPC-200, a PS Audio Duet, or a Magic Audio Stealth Mini Reference do the trick? Would I be better off with the Magic Audio Stealth XXX (even though it costs a bit more)? Or would something else be more suitable? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Follow Ups:
$1000 call and electrician and have him/her put a circuit in for your audio instead.
$2000 add a new powerline to your home just for audio
beats any PC
In fact you could probably have a new circuit put in for around $500
In the original post the writer stated "I am trying to put together a portable rig".
So, while I agree with your thinking as it would apply to a static installation in a house, the portability requirement renders it impractical (unless the dude can afford to have a dedicated mains spur installed at each location.... :-)
DevillEars
.
"beats any PC"
Um, no it won't. Even a dedicated line will NOT correct for line voltage flucuations nor will it remove transmitted noise, such as RF, on the line.
I agree that a dedicated line is well worth the expense but please don't infer that all electrical anomolies are cured with the mere addition of a dedicated line.....they are not.
There are some REAL power conditioners/regenerators out there that really do the intended job of delivering damn near perfect AC but they tend to be on the spendy side and most people are not willing/able to allow such a purchase in their audio disposable income budget.
Cheers,
~kenster
My inference was that for the price 500/1000/2000 a dedicated line/circuit was the way to go...but ok, I understand your point.
Option A
In my area a new drop of electrical service costs about $600 + est. new panel box $700 + a few circuits $200 = $1500 which leaves me enough money for 4 Oyaide R1 receptacles @ 125ea. Grand Total 2K
vs.
Option B
Existing wire and outlet + PS Audio PowerPlant or similar.
My inference was that Option A would yeld better results than Option B...I think its pretty sound.
"My inference was that Option A would yeld better results than Option B...I think its pretty sound."
Again, no it won't and here is why option A will not be better, your still not addressing the single biggest problem with your local AC delivery and that is line voltage flucuations.
Every component that relies on AC voltage, especially those that employ AC driven motors, are very sensitive to AC voltage flucuations and it is these flucuations that cause the problems with regards to a components performance.
Do U have any idea how much your local electrical services voltage flucuates? U may be surprised as it is NOT stable at all under even the best circumstances.
Your best bet would be an Oyaide outlet feeding an AC regenerator or at the very least.....a balanced power conditioner as the balanced conversion mitigates a tremendous amount of noise riding on the line but will not correct for AC voltage flucuations.
~
Are the flucuations from the pole the same and at the same rate as flucuations from the wall socket of a house who's power is being shared with furnace, refridgerator, dishwasher, washing machine, flourescent lights etc.?What is the greatest cause of AC flucuations?
Does every homes AC power flucuate to the point of it being audible in a Sound System?
Do components have built in regulators and capacitors to minimize the effects of flucuating AC current?
Is there a way to test AC flucuations ie via a RatShack device?
Seriously, Im asking....not trying to cause a debate.
"Are the flucuations from the pole the same and at the same rate as flucuations from the wall socket of a house who's power is being shared with furnace, refridgerator, dishwasher, washing machine, flourescent lights etc.?"
It is the incoming service to your residence that is the issue although the appliances will add a great deal of noise onto your line.
"What is the greatest cause of AC flucuations?"
The greatest cause is the sheer number of homes/businesses that share your line.
"Does every homes AC power flucuate to the point of it being audible in a Sound System?"
Usually equipment that does not employ a motor will function just fine but once U have heard that equipment powered from a true AC regenerator, the effects of your line voltage flucuations/noise are laid bare. Those with motors also benefit from AC regeneration as the motor speed is greatly stabilized....especially AC motors.
"Do components have built in regulators and capacitors to minimize the effects of flucuating AC current?"
Yes but I will refer U to my answer to your previous question.
"Is there a way to test AC flucuations ie via a RatShack device?"
Um no. One needs to employ a digital O-scope to really "see" whats going on with regards to line voltage flucuations/noise. Generally a DVM is not sensitive enough nor has the resolution.
Cheers,
~kenster
.
Today for laughs and giggles, I measured my line voltage over a 2 hour period and got a voltage deviation of 2.8VAC with the low being 118.6VAC and a high of 121.4. The average being 120.8VAC.
The measurements were taken from 3pm to 5pm utilizing a Fluke 179 true RMS multimeter using the Min/Max function. Just watching the unit for ~1 minute, I observed a .8VAC flucuation. Not very stable even for a residential neighborhood!
Cheers
Howdy
Still a power regenerator isn't always the best answer: few have the instantaneous current capabilities to drive high current amps. With 10 gauge dedicated lines I can get 60 amps for small amounts of time should my amps need it...
-Ted
Hey Ted,
While I respect your viewpoint(s), it is the very fact that the line voltage is flucuating that causes equipment to not sound as best it could.
I agree that most true AC regenerators are unable to handle mondo power amps but these are far and few between cases and most peoples "real world" systems can be accomodated by a well designed true AC regenerator with at least 600 watts of capacity.
As an aside, someone that can afford a PS Audio Power Plant 1200, for example, can certainly afford pretty much any equipment they desire and why someone would skimp on their stability of power at this level of the hobby is beyond me but hey....to each is own :-)
Even the mondo Mark Levinson No. 33H mono bloc amps employ on-board true AC regeneration. Why?.......because it frickin' sounds better!!
~
Howdy
If it slowly varies over a period of hours or daily, it's not much of a problem (as long as it stays in certain limits.)
If it changes rapidly (e.g. spikes or flutter) it certainly is a big problem, but still regeneration isn't the only reasonable answer, as you mention some equipment is better prepared for certain power problems than others.
-Ted
Howdy
I have a pretty good audiophile level UPS and I also have dedicated lines with reasonably good outlets. I had to add R1 outlets to the UPS and use better gauge hookup wire in it for them to get it to be a horse race between using the UPS and going directly to the wall with great power cords...
Don't get me wrong: we have brown outs and glitches that a simple power conditioner can't rectify, but in reality my amps don't care about those at all, it's other things in my system that care and made me get a audiophile UPS to handle actual non-trivial gaps in power.
It's very clear that sometimes dedicated circuits, etc. win (in the sense of the best sound / dollar spent) and other times a power regenerator wins.
-Ted
If you're looking for a device that will clean up a modified square-wave and output a clean and pure sine-wave, then you're probably going to battle to find any passive line conditioner that really works.
Passive line conditioners exist purely to remove interference (EMI and RFI) from an otherwise reasonably clean sine wave supply and won't do anything significant to the frequency and waveform (or supply voltage) of the incoming mains supply.
What you really require is a "power regenerator" that first rectifies the "dirty AC supply" to provide a DC intermediate and then inverts this DC to produce a clean sinewave AC at a regulated frequency and voltage.
I take your point on the size and weight issues that you face, but if you really need to clean up the mains for studio recording for example, then its "regeneration time"!
So, if your requirement includes cleaning up the sound for recording purposes, I would strongly recommend that you check out the following power regenerator options:
a) ExactPower EP15A
b) PS Audio Power Plant Premier
c) PurePower Audio Power Supply
These three units seem to be priced around the "just under $2k" mark, while others (at $4k+) are probably overkill in terms of budget.
Good luck...
DevillEars
I appreciate the input of all who have responded to my post. With your guidance and after considerable research, I have ordered a pair of Exeltech XP-1100 pure sine wave 1100 watt inverters. I will connect them to the Xantrex batteries with the jumper cables that come with the batteries. The battery has special jacks into which the cables can be plugged. At the inverter end, I will replace the jumper jaws with Metra Gold Series heavy duty ring terminals that will fit over the 5/16" studs. After I receive the components and wire them up, I will post again to report the results. Thanx!
.
Howdy
To get high efficiency you need switching inversion. If you can't get to high efficiency you can't support high current draw amps on a standard circuit.
If the output is a low distortion sine wave even under load (not some wacko three or even 21 level monstrosity) what do you care about how the system produced it?
Not that this is exactly what you are talking about but FWIW there are a lot of people who think that switching supplies are evil, but some of the best audio equipment I've heard has switching supplies: the Linn CD12 and the EMM Labs equipment: DAC6e, CDSD transport, SwitchMan preamp.
I have a PurePower APS 1050 online, sine wave output audiophile UPS that sounds pretty good in my system (well after I replaced the 14 gauge wire in the outputs :)
-Ted
Hi.
Any digital switching is a can of worms. It is very difficult to get it clean.
You believe in those commercial talks? Any digital switching will emit
RFI to the air, serious or not depending how effective are the shielding.
c-J
You need to get the true on line sine wave ups if that is what you are trying to run your gig on batteries, otherwise how does it sound without using the XANTREX in your setup? The Xantrex IS NOT sine but step sine which is not good for audio equipment, you can see the spec that the harmonics is really high.
Hi Budm,
The Xantrex generates a modified square wave. Not until after I hooked my rig to it and then Googled the noise did I realize that I needed a sine wave. Hence my sense that the PS Audio Power Plant Premier would work. The rig sounds great when I plug it into the wall. Any suggestions or gear recommendations?
Hi Budm,
The Xantrex generates a modified square wave. Not until after I hooked my rig to it and then Googled the noise did I realize that I needed a sine wave. Hence my sense that the PS Audio Power Plant Premier would work. The rig sounds great when I plug it into the wall. Any suggestions or gear recommendations?
How do they sound with the FURMAN conditioners hookup. You should have all the front end gears attach to the IT-1210 and power amp attached directly to the wall,or just use the power amp attached to the high current outlets of the Elite-15PF and front ends to the filtered outlets.
Experimnet with the setup will be the best test.
(apparently my earlier reply got re-posted when I submitted this one yesterday eve)
The keyboard "amps" are not power amps but powered speakers in road-ready enclosures. When the Furmans are plugged into the Xantrex batteries and the amps into the Furmans, the amps buzz. Everything sounds good plugged into the wall, but my goal is to put together a portable rig. I realize that I could get a sine wave-generating inverter, but it would cost more than the high end power conditioners. And I would still need to add a battery, a charger, and cables, and then assemble it in a way that is not too cumbersome or ugly.
It would seem that all you need to add is a pure sine wave inverter -- no need for an AC PLC since you are off the grid when a DC battery is in use. If a 300 watt continuous power, pure sine wave inverter is sufficient for your needs, this affordable device when plugged into the Xantrex PowerPack 600HD's DC jack and a HQ multi-outlet AC power strip might be all that you require. A 600 watt continuous power version is also available (see link):
Hi Duster,
I really appreciate your giving me the lead to donrowe.com. I had been looking only at Xantrex pure sine wave inverters, which are a lot more expensive. I am inclined to agree with you that this is the best way for me to go. Thanx!
Dear Aviel, I can't help you on powerline conditioners because, like you, I find them quite expensive, but I use Alan Maher's powerline conditioners, at $75.00 apiece to clean up the lines. They are a parallel filter. I hear greater detail in a blacker background; better soundstaging as well. You can give them a try while you're deciding on the expensive products. Jkwinn
You might not want to consider the expensive alternatives after you hear how much these little Alan Maher power enhancers improve the sound. I have three of them.
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