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In Reply to: RE: I don't believe what posted by unclestu52 on August 18, 2007 at 12:21:07
but his use of the faith argument is insulting to those who do hear a difference.
Follow Ups:
Quote from Mark W.
> > > "During all this time at no time not once did I hear anything that even hinted at a difference between the two copies. They were as far as I can tell 100% identical.
So as they say on TV for me "this myth is busted"
And with all things based on faith - not fact - your mileage might vary." < < <
***********
I agree with you Al Sekela, Mark W's use of the faith argument is insulting to those who DO hear a difference.
Mark W and some others cannot hear the beneficial effect of freezing CDs etc - that is their experience - and nothing anyone can say can alter that experience - but they don't seem to just want to describe their experience, they seem to want to actively denigrate other people's experiences who CAN hear improvements in their sound.
The question I would ask Mark W is "If your wife does, in fact, say that she prefers the sound of the frozen disc, would you actually, arrogantly, tell her that the reason why she can hear it sound better is because of 'faith' ?"
As I have said previously, it is not only whose experiences you are going to believe but whose experiences you are going to choose to 'dismiss'.
People such as :-
Jimmy Hughes. "Audiophile" magazine UK Jan 1993.
Greg Weaver. "Soundstage" Dec 1999.
Carol Clark. "audioMusings" 2000.
Roger Gordon. "audioMusings" 2003. Who actually carried out some blind trials on the freezing of CDs using a domestic deep freezer. Three out of eight listeners heard no differences but five out of the eight heard differences. His article confirming that some can hear the effect of freezing and others cannot.
Bill Kenny. Musical Editor of "MusicWeb International" Aug 2005. Bill said "As it turns out, the idea of freezing CDs has been around for a while. The UK's Sunday Times (ST.10.10.93) carried an article by Mark Skipworth describing a controlled and blind-tested comparison between identical frozen and normal CDs in which the judging panel invariably preferred the frozen samples. The result was startling in all cases..........
The effect is enhanced with rather more subtlety by freezing the disc a second time after which the three dimensionality of the sound (on every disc tested) seemed even greater. Instruments and voices were even more precisely located"
These are some of the people whose experiences have been put down to 'faith' !!!
Or plainly dismissed (as below) !!
Quote from cheap-Jack
> > > "Please don't tell us a domestic fringe freezer compartment (-10 to -20C) can do the same job of cryogenics.
I have proven a -25C freezer does not give any noticeable sonic results on audio stuff." < < <
Quote from The Real Dick Hertz
> > > "I did a similar experiment and also didn't notice any difference. However, I cryo'd my nagging mother-in-law and she's much improved now." < < <
Regards,
May Belt.
For crying out loud. I didn't hear anything different and my wife looked at me and said she didn't have time to sit and listen to frozen CD's.The faith comment was just that a New Born Christian will tell you they have had a sign from God. Now no amount of science or convincing will change your opinion of the new born christians claim. I put this a kin to that.
It wasn't meant to insult you. Or anyone who says they hear a difference.
More power to you if you can hear something I can't now is this due to my hearing my system my freezer or my deep set roots in the Scientific method. I don't know. I reported to you goobers after I did the experiment there was nothing to come from it.
Take that for what it is.
I liked your well documented test, it provides a good data point. And your conclusion: "SO for me in my limited experience this Tweak is not something I will continue to pursue." is very reasonable and appropriate. Since in my opinion happiness is having a player that's not very susceptible to minor disk variations, you should be pleased with the result. I did a similar test when coating disk edges with a felt tip pen was the rage years ago and got the same happy result.
But it's like headaches, while I'm happy that I don't get them, I can't properly conclude from that that those who do are malingerers. The scope of your testing simply doesn't support your additional conclusion that other experimenters who had differing results are faith-based goobers. They may be, but you haven't proven your case.
Considering that I have found substantial variations amongst my players just based upon the brand of CDROM I use, I would assume that they're observations are also reliable.
Rick
> > > "It was meant to insult you. Or anyone who says they hear a difference." < < <
WOW !!
May Belt.
I bought a pair of Bose 901's, and indeed, nothing made a difference. Went from zip cord to Monster cable to FultonGolds and there was no difference. Went from Shure v 15 type II to the latest type III, no difference. Tried a Mark Levinson amp, no difference from my Dynaco ST 120. Draw from that experience what you will.
But now I get insulted when someone questions my hearing and says that I am 'faith' based. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but the true colors are showing. For some things, explanations may vary, but out right condemnation leads me now to pity you and your attitude.
Too bad ,
Stu
Hey Stu,
So how do you account for that? I'm thinking likely 'twas the electronic equalizer.
I've noticed that many folks who vehemently say they "believe in science" are actually participating in a religion, but don't realize it. Self-proclaimed 'skeptics' usually are the worst of the lot. Here I'm thinking of the bad-science guy at the Guardian and the old Audio Critic magazine, ironically both examples of truly bad science. In this case there does appear to be some grinding of axes in addition to over-generalization...
Rick
Well to tell the truth, the parts in the Equalizer are so very mundane, to be very charitable....The thing that really opened my ears was turning the speaker around 180 degrees. With the direct firing of the normally 8 rearward facing speakers, there was a significant increase in detail (this was inspired when the 801's, the disco version, came out). The 801's were set up with the eight rear drivers facing forward.
Then I realized that unless you had a perfectly treated wall behind, the direct/reflecting principle simply meant that the reflected sound arrived at the ear at various time intervals creating a huge phase issue. Going back to the original reviews that inspired me to purchase the damn things outright (I was still in high school and not very confident in my own hearing) I then noticed the total THD at 1 meter was over 5%. No wonder nothing seemed to make a difference. No wonder when Bose came out with their 500 watt receiver with 5% distortion, they claimed that it was still inaudible.
I believe my very next speaker was a pair of Maggies, the MG-1, being hooked the 'BIG' Sound. I have never been truly satisfied with most speaker systems. They have been the weakest link in the audio chain, IMHO. Not one, even those $100K systems I have heard at CES, achieve time and phase alignment with a decent frequency response. Oh, they get maybe two of the three OK, but rarely achieve a confluence of all three. Somehow, I seem to find an adequate balance between the three in much cheaper designs (fortunately). Either that or you have to a lot of DIY.
Stu
This is getting quite amusing, unclestu.
Your reply was to my 'posting' but the last sentence of your reply is a bit ambiguous.
Is your condemnation to me and to MY attitude (as your reply was to MY 'posting) or is your condemnation to Mark W and to Mark W's attitude ?
Should hate to start WW3 (World War 3) over a misunderstanding !!!
Regards,
May Belt.
OR we could go back about four steps and I could not type so damn fast and not miss adding the 'nt to the word "was" in the post that got you guys all frothed up.
I have edited the post to reflect what I was trying to say not what I typed (OK now we can have four more posts on the Freudian slip issue)
I am now convinced some people hear things others do not.
I don't.
Thanks for that correction, I was really beginning to wonder.
In light of that correction, I also must apologize to you. My apologies, sir.
Also to May, my comments were not aimed at you, as I had previously posted that I do hear differences.
Stu
Appreciated unclestu. Peace all round.
Now we have calm, can we continue to look at the subject of freezing - irrespective of whether it is freezing using a domestic deep freezer or freezing using cryogenic temperatures.
It is a 'red herring' approach to bring in the FACT that cryogenic temperatures are much lower than the temperature of a domestic deep freezer. Everyone and his uncle KNOW this FACT so, with intelligent people, it is already 'taken into account' in any ensuing discussions. Particularly when the descriptions given by people who CAN hear the beneficial effect i.e. greater height, greater depth, greater width, better separation of instruments, better resolution etc are identical descriptions - irrespective of which freezing temperature they have used.
It has now been acknowledged that some people can 'hear' the beneficial effects of freezing, some cannot but ALL can try the technique, for themselves, at no cost (except in time and patience) but for the people who CAN hear improvements in their sound by carrying out the freezing technique, the time spent and the patience devoted to it is well worthwhile.
Nor can one dismiss these people's experiences as "It must be because of suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, audio faith healing or effective marketing." because one would then be dismissing so many 'professionals in audio' THEIR experiences !! As I have said previously you can have some disbelief, some scepticism that what many people are describing actually happened (that the sound actually improved) but to not try something when it is so easy to do so but yet still be prepared to dismiss 'out of hand' other serious and sensible 'audiophiles' and 'professionals in audio' experiences borders, in my opinion, on arrogance.
Over the past 25 years I have seen people go through the whole spectrum of reactions.
Some people do not want to try things for themselves but they don't want others to try things either so they make every attempt to discourage others from trying things.
Some people do not want to think things out for themselves but they don't want others to think for themselves either so they make every attempt to discourage others from thinking things out for themselves.
Yes, everyone is entitled to and can voice their opinions but it seems, on so many occasions, to be a downright prolonged attempt by certain people - way beyond what could be regarded as an 'opinion' - to be naysayer regarding anything out of their experience as well as self appointed policemen for the audio world.
So, I would encourage people to experiment, for themselves. At the least you might be pleasantly surprised, at best you might be amazed !!
Regards,
May Belt.
There are procedural consequences also. When I freeze my discs, I allow 48 hours in a standard freezer, and developed this time frame when comparing results to items I had treated with a sry ice/liquid nitrogen process. Too short a freezer stay time, and the actual amount of change was rather limited.
Some times an xperiment with different procedures can lead to various and different conclusions also.
Stu
Going back four steps is fine with me.
Peace is quickly restored.
Regards,
May Belt.
Exactly. Does he think I'd really consider copying all my commercial cds onto black cdr if it was just a self delusion that they sounded better? I'm naturally quite lazy after all! I doubt if people would go to all the trouble of cryoing their cds on a mere self delusion.
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