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I posted something similar on a less specific forum but am hoping I can get a more useful and informed response from the more educated and experienced `Maggy-ophiles' here...I have trialed MMGs and soon after bought 1.6s which I have been happy with although after ~20 years the itch to upgrade is growing. I enjoy the delicate treble and ethereal quality of the polite precise upper ranges. The detachment of the music from the panels is great although the imaging could be better. I don't miss bass slam as I have another setup that works well for that type of listening. I have the ceiling height and room space to consider the bigger options but my budget limits to pre-owned gear and/or DIY. I listen to streamed stuff via a generic source, so nothing wildly esoteric. I frequent the DIYAudio Pass forum and building amps and preamps is an accompanying process; i.e. this aspect is covered.
Having chewed on this in isolation I'd welcome input from the collective.
The more obvious options appear to be:
A. wait for an opportunity to pick up a set of 3.6R/2.7R or maybe 3.7 panels so as to experience a real ribbon. Or,
B. build a stacked pair of MMG, LRS, 0.7 or maybe even 1.6/1.7 depending upon how it adds up ($ and feet).
C. And occasionally there are Tympanis that come up for sale.your thoughts appreciated,
cheers
Beardy
Edits: 12/01/23Follow Ups:
Beardy, send me an email about 20.1's if interested.
Magnepans are driven by voltage. A lot of voltage will also result in more current. Most Magnepans shows an impedance of 4-5 Ohm, those with ribbon tweeters dip to 3 Ohm. Yes, the 1.7 is down to 2 Ohm in the treble but there is seldom a wish for very high SPL in that region.
Bass drivers found in series 3 are 4 Ohm, Tympanies 4 or 8 Ohm, almost pureley resistive. With a passive crossover the impedance is higher. With 40 W in 4 Ohm you get just about 3.2 A floting through your speakers. With 200 W it will be about 7A. I have used my 3.6 with an mini receiver from Denon for a while, it could deliver 45 W in 4 Ohm. It worked rather well but not like with the 3.6 running active with 4 x 180 W.
I will investigate higher power options and in principle have no issue going in that direction. There are number DIY projects like AB100 & Honey Badger at the 100+W level which would be fun to build and are Class AB.
I'd rather stay at lower power, purely due to a preference to stay with Class A amps which at higher power become excessive heat sources and are much less practical in summer.
It would be interesting to hear what people see measuring volts across the back of their speakers. My guess is that it is a lot less than one might anticipate given the choice of amps, but that in turn suggests there is something else going on with the choice of amps, like damping factor or output impedance and/or other paramters which I know little about. I would liek to understand better.
Sure there are many amp idiosyncracies which influence how Maggies sound but, before you decide on your chosen path - can I suggest you do a lot of amp auditioning .
You wrote: " There are number of DIY projects like AB100 & Honey Badger at the 100+W level which would be fun to build and are Class AB ."
From my experience with passive and then active IIIAs (and my 3-way Frankenpans) ... 100w is insufficient to bring out the best from passive IIIAs.
So try a Magtech ... or, say, a 250w VTL tube amp.
If you go 2 or 3-way active ... then 2x 100w AB amps will be sufficient to drive them well - but more power on the bass panels will probably make them sound better.
The amps I used on my bass panels for 20 years were 100w AB amps (into 8 ohms; 190w into 4 ohms) ... I suspect double that would've been better.
You also wrote: " It would be interesting to hear what people see, measuring volts across the back of their speakers ."
That will give you the average power levels ... but I suggest will not tell you what instantaneous voltages are being delivered, on transients. Faithfull transient reproduction is what distinguishes great ... from merely "good" sound, IMO.
Magtech - 900 WPC into 4 Ohms, and a price tag of $7k. (insert EEK imoji here)
250WPC Tube amp is into some rare-breed amp territory, high end monoblocks would probably cost more than the Magtech.
I don't follow you, Dennis!
Why should an amp cost less than the spkrs it drives?
Especially when they are very old (and at least second-hand) spkrs?
Who's Dennis?
It's the same reason I'm listening to T-IV's, and not 30.1's.
There's plenty of other ways to feed the Maggie beasts than spending 7k on an amp. My $600 modified Marshall 9200 is one of them...
.
Ive had maggies in my life about 30 years. (now have 3.5r) Would like to have the 30.7 but with recent price increases they are further out of my reach.
The maggies have grown with my system and allow me to hear every improvement. Last 20 or so have been network tweaks.
So probably nothing but maggies for the next 20.....
Keep in mind that 3.6Rs are easily bi-ampable and may surpass the performance of non-biamped 3.7s which are not easy to bi-amp.
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
So I hear the broad concensus to go with a system with a ribbon, but before I jump, what are the pros (and cons), of a Tympani?
Cons:
They're bigger so need more space and need more space to play
Only the IV has a ribbon but the others don't
Pros:
I assume the benefit of greater panel area is extension to lower frequency and being able to operate and any given sound level with less extension; hence lower distortion..?
Bigger Maggies are undoubtably better than small ones due to the limitations in sensitivity/driver extension/efficiency. But is this merely a fascination with girth?
My room is 17x42 with 9-11ft ceilings). Kids have gone and I have spousal approval. I currently use my 1.6QRs with a 200W XPA-200 Emotiva (forgive me), and it is loud enough for me.
So maybe a 3 series with a ribbon is a better fit but I'm doing due diligence.
Tympani IVa's would a superb choice, assuming you can provide the level of electronics necessary.
Failing that, 20-series would be the next best bet, though that would be expensive (though less so used) and still need a high level of amplification.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Which is the right thing to do! :-))
Lovely room - 17 x 42! T-IVAs would certainly fit right in, there.
T-IVAs would give you more bass extension than the IIIAs/3.X series - so much so I would suspect you would probably do away with the need for subs (which IIIA/3.X series really do need!).
In addition if you were able to get hold of that factory-refurbished pair ... you wouldn't have to worry about delam occurring!
Note: you can also easily bi-amp T-IVAs by replacing the external bass/mid XO with an active XO (if this is of interest). If you don't bi-amp, I suggest you will need a more powerful amp, to get the best out of T-IVAs. Something like a Magtech would be a good option.
I apologize for my ambiguity; I don't have access on a TIV. It was a more general question about a/any Tympani versus a 3 series. For example a T1D versus a MGIIIa... I'd lose out on not having a ribbon..?
And in answer to your Qu: " For example a T-1D versus a MGIIIa... I'd lose out on not having a ribbon ?" ... yes, you would.
So would a Tympani 1D exhibit any obvious advantages over a 3 series that might outweigh the lack of ribbon?
Tympani 1D's should have a fuller bass note than MG-IIIa or 3.7's, with roughly twice the area of bass drivers. They don't have the Magnepan true-ribbon, but they do have a push-pull driven planar tweeter. I don't know what the process is for re-building the push-pull tweeter, if it can be DIY repaired or if it needs to be sent in to Magnepan if it's non-op.
Another option might be to buy true ribbons from Magnepan and modify the panel containing the mid/ribbon to run a true ribbon. MUG specs page lists them as 2-way with 6 screens. I don't know if the push-pull ribbon of the T1-D also does some of the midrange or if there is a separate midrange driver.
A mate of mine has a pair of T1-Ds.
They consist (each side) of:
* 2x bass panels - one is 'tuned' to a higher FR than the other
* and a mid/tweeter panel.
IE. there is not a separate tweeter, as well as the mid panel.
Yes, the push/pull tweeter can be re-wired.
Does the panel with the P-P tweeter have enough room for a true ribbon next to it? Seems like it would be an easy upgrade to get them up to T-IV performance, add the ribbon and a crossover network to shift HF work over to the ribbon.
The T-IV also has a tuned mid-bass panel and a LF bass panel. I wonder if the mid-bass is tuned the same as the T1-D was.
You asked: Does the panel with the P-P tweeter have enough room for a true ribbon next to it?
Yes ... and no! :-))
The way Magnepan built the mid panel ... there is no way to add a ribbon tweeter assembly.
But it is pretty simple to construct a new mid panel frame - which can take the ribbon-assembly, as well as the what-will-now-be-the mid panel. That's exactly what my mate with the T1-Ds did.
With Tympani ID, there is room for a ribbon tweeter next to the original pus-pull Magneplanar tweeter. The whole push-pull tweeter is a bit weird, its overall width is very wide, about 8 inches. The diaphragm itself is only 6 cm wide. It can be cut down to 10 cm and then the ribbon next to it. Of course, you need to rebuild the baffle., which is very flimsy. Still, it is a bit of a compromise as the original ID tweeter is crossed over to the bass drivers at 1 kHz. I think, a midrange driver operating down to 300-500 Hz would be better with the ribbon tweeter. The tweeter of the ID does have a bit of the cavity resonace often found in push-pull drivers. There is a peak at 7.5 kHz.
Below, the response without crossover, fundamental resonance seems to be at about 400 Hz.
Here the wide tweeter can be seen on the left. Having the drivers closer to each other help the imaging greatly!
By the looks of that photo of the back side of the T1-D P/P driver panel, a Magnepan Ribbon should easily fit next to it. That large diameter inductor at the lower left would probably need to be re-located but otherwise, looks like it's do-able!
Current price for a pair of ribbons from Magnepan is about 1k unless you have cores from another set of speakers you could swap for. Still, not too bad considering the SQ you would get with a set of T1-D's that have added ribbons.
It is do-able. Not that the thin (1/8") Masonite board is very suitable for mounting the drivers to.
There are a few things that can be made differently. Like removing the drivers from the original baffles (well... maybe there is a better word for it in this case). The push-pull tweeter can be cut down in width in order to allow the drivers to be mounted closer to each other in a new baffle/supporting frame. The width of the speaker will shrink, making it suited (a must almost) to "the narrow room setup" as for the T-IVa. Low bass close to the side walls, then midbass and the tweeter on the inside. Adding a ribbon is also possible.
I dislike having directional information from all the three drivers. A new crossover may be the way to go. The first order slope of the push-pull tweeter is probably better replaced by a steeper order one, maybe at lower frequency (700-800 Hz?). I would also like the low bass driver to be rolled off earlier, maybe at 350-400 Hz, leaving the mid bass going up to 700-800 Hz. Adding a ribbon tweeter maybe at 5 kHz. This calls for some experiment...
Outline of a cut-down tweeter.
At minimum some strips to shim the ribbon to the correct depth so it's not protruding in the front, or a new MDF panel to get everything installed in better cutouts would be needed.
Not sure about rolling the bass drivers off earlier, IIRC the second panel is a mid-bass driver, tuned to the area where you want to reduce the response of the bass panels (500-800Hz). If you roll the bass off too early you could end up with a hole in the sound if the mid can't be driven that low. You would also be sacrificing the radiating area of the mid-bass driver since it won't operate in the low-bass frequencies.
There isn't a lot of directional sound at those low frequencies, maybe with drums in live performances or low freq. wind instruments mic'd for location in an orchestra performance? I agree that time/distance alignment will help with image, but there might not be very much stereo program at those low frequencies. Some sacrifice of time alignment is a necessary evil with multi-panel drivers like the Tympani(s), unless you go to active crossover/time alignment with delays to account for distance.
Maybe I was not clear. The low bass up to about 400 Hz and the midbass to 800 Hz. The push-pull tweeter above 800 Hz. Yes, I am aware there will be some fiddling with a suitable crossover. I prefer to use active crossovers. Well, there is a difference between the Tympani IIIA or IIIB to the Tympani ID in imaging. The "wide mouth" effect of my modified IIIA back then was far less present than through the ID.
Yes, that sounds about right for crossover freq's. Does the 1-D have a separate crossover section for the mid-bass driver? I'm curious about my T-IV's, why there is no XO filter for that panel.
The on the photo of the T1-D P-P tweeter panel, are the horizontal cuts and those curved cuts at the bottom in the MDF to reduce resonance of the panel? Seems like it would have been better to leave unused areas thicker of MDF instead of hollowing it all out and then trying to dampen the thinner section. Maybe it was a weight consideration for shipping/handling
"The on the photo of the T1-D P-P tweeter panel, are the horizontal cuts and those curved cuts at the bottom in the MDF to reduce resonance of the panel? Seems like it would have been better to leave unused areas thicker of MDF instead of hollowing it all out and then trying to dampen the thinner section. Maybe it was a weight consideration for shipping/handling."
Tympani ID is not MDF like later models. The thin sheet of Masonite is glued to some particle board frames covered with the usual metal strips. The picture below show one of the bass panels.
I found a pair of MGIIIA and the ribbons look in great shape and they play OK.
Bass bloats a bit when the volume is higher but seems better behaved at lower levels - not sure what that is about.
Otherwise they seem a fair bit more bass heavy than the 1.6QRs (more than I am used to), but I do like the highs.
I have 14 days to return them and freedom to whip the socks off and check them out. Aside from playing them and performing a visual check on the ribbons and panels is there anything else I need to do?
It's possible that the bass panel wires are delaminating from the mylar. It's a very common problem. The wires are aluminum and tend to corrode over time as well and go open circuit, despite being insulated/coated wire. Try running the palm of your hand up the back side of the panel near the top and bottom, gently. If you feel lifted wires at either end you will know without having to remove the speaker cloth.
If you do remove the cloth, keep in mind that it's got a ton of staples holding it on at the bottom edge and usually removing them is going to cause fabric tears or runs that might make it useless to put back on. Maagnepan doesn't use the burlap fabric anymore so you would be stuck if you decided to try to return them after removing the cloth. Decide if you are willing to keep and rebuild them or have magnepan rebuild them before taking the speaker cloth off of them.
Yes there could also be a tear in the mylar causing a bass note problem. No real way of knowing until the cloth comes off. Whatever is wrong in there can be fixed, it's just a matter of time/expense and whether it needs to be serviced by Magnepan or not.
At what volume do you start to hear bass distortion? Another possibility is the the bass panel mylar has stretched and not taught enough to prevent it from slapping the magnet screen.
Its not a slap and I dont hear "snare drum" like rattling or buzzing. Its just like the bass goes soft (rounded, blobby?!), maybe smeared is a better term. I've only had them for a couple of hours so need to spend a bit more time working out what I am hearing.
May of course be something in the amplifier chain, but volumes are not massive and XPA-200 should do 240W into 4 ohms, so I don't think I am pushing it.
Could be something in the 35 year old crossover electronics.
Regardless lots learn and play with.
Bad electrolytic caps in the crossover boxes is definitely a possibility with muddy sounding lows. Sometimes they are just stubborn about charging if they have been sitting unused for a long time.
Also, double check the phase of the inputs/outputs at the XO box. If OK, then try inverting the input to the XO box, it could be that the absolute phase is inverted.
If that doesn't improve the bass note, try reversing the bass connection between the XO box and the speaker, just in case the bass panels are internally wired backwards (not likely but stranger things have happened).
I have since spent more time listening with more familiar music and at reasonable volume levels it seems fine. I think it was a combination of factors, not the least of which was a crappy choice of media.PS Ribbons are great
Edits: 12/09/23
I just got a pair of IIIa's from a recycler for cheap. They only had one mid and one bass driver working when first tested. Checked the ribbons, both were not soldered correctly. I attached jumpers just to get them working, and gave a listen for a couple of nights. To get some balance in the bass/mids I connected one T-IV bass panel to the bass output section of the IIIa crossover box (not ideal, but to get -some- balance, it worked).
My initial impression is that the IIIa is much more forward in the midrange than my modified T-IVa's. It's good in the sense that the vocals are more forward in the presentation, but a bit of a loss in the total image because the musical program gets reduced, at least in the mid-highs and the mid-lows. This could be a reason why people tend to consider them 'power hungry'. Increasing volume will bring up the background, and your ears will attenuate the vocals as SPL increases.
Keep in mind that I didn't do any proper placement, or room EQ and they were sitting directly in front of the T-IVs. Still, amazing sounding even as such. The extreme highs seemed to have a bit more sparkle than the T-IV's do so I'll be looking into why that is, but it could be lack of room EQ on that issue.
That's great to hear! :-))
Maybe your next step - just because you can , with the IIIAs - is to replace the external XO box with an active XO ... and actively bi-ap them!
Already chewing on that!
:o)
What amp are you currently driving your new IIIAs with?
An Emotiva XPA-200.
My plan is to build 2 or 3 Pass F5 clones and biamp/triamp, but I am still chewing on the active crossover. I'd prefer to build rather than buy and this
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/diy-biamp-6-24crossover.357657/
is the current favored approach. I am working through exactly how to set this up. I have your MUG tweaks page up in a seperate tab.
cheers
You keep your Emotiva XPA for the bass panels ... and build an F5 for the mids+ribbons - or an F5 for the mids plus an F5 for the ribbons (ie. 3-way active).
Even then ... you may find (although the only way to do this is to borrow other amps, to compare) that the F5s aren't really powerful enough. :-((
Why do I say this? Because for about a year (before I then got rid of my Frankenpans) I used 2x 40w-into-4-ohms AKSA ' Alpha Nirvana ' Class A
amps on my mids & ribbons. Actively driven. (You can find the AKSA AN thread on DIYaudio.)
Hugh Dean - the designer - came over and had a listen; he knows my system well and admitted he was a little 'underwhelmed'. :-(( Which surprised him - as he knew how good the amps should sound.
Yet when he came over subsequently - to listen to the same amps driving my new 'zero baffle' spkrs - he was amazed at how good the amps sounded.
My conclusion was that ... although my ANs were the "4 ohm" version (to optimise their delivery into 4 ohm spkrs rather than 8 ohm - and they are stable into 2 ohms!), the Maggie mids & ribbons really needed more power.
The Pass XO should be ideal. I myself (nearly 30 years ago) used Rod Elliott's P09 L-R XO circuit (modded to provide 'Maggie' slopes) - which worked well.
Pass F5 is only 40 W into 4 Ohm. That is not enough!
I tend to agree here, but I'm running a ~50W (@8 Ohm) tube amp right now driving the T-IV's full range and it's sounding good/detailed. If he's going to bi-amp with the Pass amps it -might- be enough if the room is on the smaller side.
I say appx. 50W because the amp is designed for KT-120's and I'm using 6550's instead, so it's output is less than the design spec of 75WPC. As I've stated before, I only need about 15WPC (on 8-Ohm meters) for the room to start feeling 'too loud', however.
Output volume is unarguably related to I^2R. With my DVM I measure typical AC voltages of 5-6 volts at speaker terminals when playing loud. However this meter does not have the temporal response to read accurate values for the peaks, so let me get back to you on that once I have a decent analog AC Voltmeter to play with.
My unfounded belief is that much of this preoccupation with massive power is a reflection of the amplifier architecture required by low impedance speakers. A power supply that can readily provide the current required is feature of a better quality amp. The degradation in sound quality that one might hear from lower power amplifiers may be the impact of shortfalls in the power supply dept.
My expectation is that at `my volumes' there are peaks to perhaps +/-20V, and potentially the impedance of planar may be as low as 2.5 Ohms. This suggests an F5 with a power supply that can give 40V/2.5 Ohms (16A) might do the trick.
However, my wife tells me that on occasion I am wrong.
Keep in mind that Magnepans are one of the most capable speakers at producing impulse transients like drum/cymbal percussion. These instantaneous changes in voltage approach infinite wattage/current in the instant they are generated.
The signal path from the source through to the amplifier all have to try to reproduce that signal/current demand, of course at lesser extremes with lower voltages. When it gets to the power amp, that current demand goes way up as it tries to drive the low impedance load (relatively) of the speakers.
So it really depends on the amp, and it's current delivery capabilities to be able to keep those notes sharp/accurate. Magnepans are so revealing that deficiencies of the amp can be heard, where they may not be with a standard speaker that's not 'fast' enough.
Understood - that echoes my thoughts.
There is always the turbo...
:o)
As Dennis said: " So it really depends on the amp, and its current delivery capabilities to be able to keep those notes sharp/accurate ."
Maggies are not the only spkrs that sound better when the amp driving them has bags of current-delivery capability. A mate of mine had some stand-mount B&Ws for many years. He first drove them with a very good-sounding Oz-made 40w tube amp. They sounded very nice - if a little bland ... so one day he decided to try a 150wpc ss amp. That made a huuuge difference ... and he thought he was done! Then, a wicked friend brought over his Magtech to try (500w into 8 ohms, 900w into 4 ohms ... and stable into 2!). Russ then bought a Magtech! :-))
Well, with all forms of conversion to mechanical motion from electricity, it's the magnetic field of the permanent magnets interacting with the magnetic field of the voice coil, or in the case of Magnepans, the linear voice wires. The magnetic field of the wire is generated from the current flowing in the wire. Voltage and current are inter-related but the current (flow of electrons) is what generates the magnetic field.
Still I=V/R. As the Magnepans driven active is a pure restive load there is not a lot of currrent running through them. The power amps used by myself will not run out of current but of voltage. They can deliver a maximum peak current of 80 A but that will only be the case with some completely stupid speakers which need to go back to the designing board. With the 4 Ohm basses of a Magnepan peak current may be about 10 A (400 W in 4 Ohm).
I think it depends on the amp, some amps spec'd at high voltage/wattage will fall short on current delivery under load with dynamics, which again will create higher than 'average' instantaneous current/voltage demands. A lower wattage amp that can deliver high current can be OK, if it can keep up with the instantaneous demand (at lower volumes, of course).
I'm learning a lot here, but I'm not sure I can gauge the relative benefits of say a T1D over an MGIIIA - one has greater bass extension, `more full sound', but perhaps has a small sweetspot due to beaming of the tweeter, the other has a true ribbon.
Does the push pull tweeter sound different from the QR tweeter in the 1.6?
Anybody anywhere close to Portland or Seattle who might have time to put up with me for an hour?
cheers
Having had MG-IIB's and now listening to T-IV's, it comes down to what you would prefer in terms of overall sound/stage. The IIIA's are going to have the top-end detail in the highs from the ribbons, where the I-D's will have better low-end and a larger stage due to the 3-panels/side. If you are willing to compromise the shimmer/brightness of the ribbons (or go to the expense of adding them) you would probably prefer I-D's.
I ran the ribbons only on my T-IV's in parallel with Carver ALS to get the top-end notes that the Carver ribbons don't do as well. There is a fair bit of highs that were either dull or not audible with a driver that rolls off at around 10k. It's just a matter of personal preference whether you feel the need to hear the highest highs. When one of my Magnepan ribbons failed, I noticed the loss of those highs when both were turned off, and yes I did want them back/operational again.
I would think probably worse ... as the 1.6QR used the 1/4" wide "quasi ribbon" on the mylar for the tweeter (at least!); the T-1D used the old-style, round-wire.
Got it - thx
nt
If you decide to go all the way, I know where there are a set of factory restored Tympani IVa's available!
Edits: 12/07/23 12/07/23 12/07/23
Tympanis require care and feeding, not to mention a lot of space.
3.6R is better across the board than the 2.7R, which has a smaller baffle and shorter ribbon, and the 3.7R is better than both.
Stacked can be pretty amazing. But note that the MMG and LRS have limited bass and won't play loud.
I'd say that your best options are the 3.6R and 3.7R, unless you want to go all in and modify a pair of Tympanis.
Sorry - 2.7 does not use a true-ribbon, Josh. It's all wire/QR on mylar.
However, the new anticipated 2.7i may well use a true-ribbon tweeter.
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
If you want an "upgrade" then a model which has a true-ribbon (as distinct from the 'quasi ribbon'!) is the option to go for.
So your option A would include:
* 2.5s
* 2.6s
* IIIAs
* 3.3s
* 3.5s
* 3.6s
* 3.7s.
2.7s are a) rare and b) don't use a true-ribbon.
And re. your option C:
* only T-IVs and T-IVAs use a true-ribbon.
Seems like the advice is pretty consistent - thanks for the guidance.
How much of a compromise is a IIIA versus 3.6 or 3.7? It looks like the IIIA has a much lower cost. Is it still a significant step-up from the newer QR systems?
TIA
Yes, IMO the true ribbon would make the IIIA a significant step up from 2-way QR models.
The only thing wrong with IIIAs (and probably 3.3s/3.5s) is that the glue which Magnepan used back in those days ... is inferior to what they switched to.
So - unless they've been re-wired by the factory - any set you come across may suffer from the dreaded 'delam' problem. :-((
cheers
1 vote for option 1. You sound like you need true ribbons in your life...
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
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