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Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out?

141.255.166.168

vinylheathen

Hey guys;

still waiting on delivery of my 1.7s, in the meantime..

Tweets in or out for you folks?

Follow Ups:

RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Ozzie 11:31:13 09/17/17 (1)
For my little Gunned MMGs I was told by Peter Gunn to put the tweets on outside.
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 12:34:16 09/17/17 (0)
  Ok, that is very interesting, as the stock MMG manual only provides guidance to set up with the tweeters in. But of course this may not apply to a modded MMG.
If wide spaced.. tweets in. If narrow, tweets out. I am tweets in, wide spaced. nt - 3+4=5 09:43:30 09/17/17 (3)
.
- RE: If wide spaced.. tweets in. If narrow, tweets out. I am tweets in, wide spaced. nt - vinylheathen 12:35:46 09/17/17 (2)
  If that is the case I may end of with tweets out after trying both ways, As I will probably not be able to spread them more than 6 feet apart.
  - mine 5' from inside edge to inside edge. outsides are 8'3" Room is 11'6" wide - 3+4=5 11:17:10 09/19/17 (1)
    mine 5' from inside edge to inside edge. outsides are 8'3" Room is 11'6" wide. this does not consider the distance 'lost' due to being angled
    Just for your information.. also have added 'wings' on the woofer side (close to walls) about 5" wide, and full height. They are just unfinished Red Oak 3/4" boards laid in against the back of the Speaker trim up to the actual speaker (and held tight by a small brace from the back.
    (to show how cheap and lazy I am.. they are 'attached' to the speaker trim at the top with clear 'long term storage' packing tape.. LOL
    This type of tape comes off rather easily and does not leave gunk. and makes it easy to take them off)
    
    Edits: 09/19/17
    - RE: mine 5' from inside edge to inside edge. outsides are 8'3" Room is 11'6" wide - vinylheathen 16:17:45 09/19/17 (0)
      Wow, 5 feet is as close as I would go, unless may they were MMGs or Mini Maggies.
      
      Yikes! Packing tape! LOL..I hear you. I am lazy too but looking at that wold drive me nuts. :)
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - josh358 17:02:30 09/16/17 (5)
Tweets in, but I don't have much choice because my speakers so wide for my absurdly small room.

I have a theory, though, that it depends on whether you're an innie or an outie. The arrangement that corresponds to your navel will induce beneficial harmonic resonances, while its opposite will sound dissonant and shrill.
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - watts 13:01:56 09/17/17 (1)
  Concave all the way :)
  - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - josh358 12:14:02 10/05/17 (0)
    :-)
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 18:41:58 09/16/17 (0)
  I think you nailed it!
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - BDP24 17:35:17 09/16/17 (1)
  Josh, that's why older guys, with their inevitable weight gain, almost always position their Maggies tweeters in ;-).
  - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - josh358 17:42:54 09/16/17 (0)
    Damn, I knew there was a reason mine were in! I have to drop the ice cream and do Atkins again . . .
as mood dictates - Green Lantern 12:39:27 09/16/17 (1)
tweeters in will give me a more detailed intimate presentation; tweets out will expand the Universe in my room -which is ok at times too
- RE: as mood dictates - vinylheathen 18:43:28 09/16/17 (0)
  I think this is more than likely the way it will go...
  I will probably start with tweeters in with about a 15 degree
  toe in work from there...
In - sbrians 10:26:24 09/16/17 (0)
I also just reduced the toe-in so that it is very little.
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - pictureguy 12:00:26 09/15/17 (1)
People ALWAYS forget that in addition to the tweeters In / Out discussion, you can also consider listening ot the pole piece side Or Not.

Original Maggies like my MG1 originals, intended you to listen to the pole piece side. My 1.6s? Opposite.

But in doing a detailed setup, I HAD to check all 4 logical orientations. Some tests lasted 1 minute or less. Nope. Other tests lasted from 10 minutes to a couple days.

After getting oriented, I got out the tape measure and using the wooden stiles on the edges of the panels, recorded various dimensions. A little crudely applied Trig and out pops toe Angle.
Too much is never enough
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - jimf42 08:26:50 09/22/17 (0)
  Currently in on my MGIIIa setup...definitely more toe in required, but imaging great improved.
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - RickeyM 09:27:02 09/14/17 (6)
I use one of those "laser" tape measurers to make sure the distance from listening position to speakers is the same for the left and right speaker. It's also handy for making sure the toe-in matches. Measure the distance of the outer edge of one speaker and make sure the other speaker matches. Do the same for the inner edges of the speakers. The amount of toe is now the same on both speakers.
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - grantv 09:09:24 09/15/17 (0)
  I use a different approach, but with accurate results as well.
  My couch has a raised level behind it for another couch (it wraps the lower couch), so it is (painfully accurately) centered in the room.
  
  My speakers are measured from each front and side wall. I built the room, it again, is painfully accurate side to side including adding a corner that is only "needed" on one side (far left and right in old picture).
  
  Different approach, same accurate end results.
  
  Edits: 09/15/17
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - watts 19:03:26 09/14/17 (3)
  Wow; high tech. I stick a tape measure end to the wood part between the tweet and mid stuck to my belly while in seating position left speaker then right...
  - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Desafinado 21:45:36 09/14/17 (2)
    Watts:
    
    I'm not sure about your situation, but if I tried that belly technique
    my speakers would, over time, be almost magically moving closer and closer to me!!
    - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - watts 12:25:21 09/15/17 (0)
      That makes up for the loss of hearing over time :)
      
      I put in my test tone cd tracks recently. Couldn't hear anything over 16Khz. Getting old.....
    - LOL, post of the day! - grantv 09:00:48 09/15/17 (0)
      I do all I can to lose weight, but that tummy just doesn't seem to go away. 10# is all I ask for.
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 12:11:56 09/14/17 (0)
  Good man. Equal toe in for each speaker is an often overlooked issue.
  
  I can hear it when there is a just a few degrees difference.
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - timm 11:24:48 09/13/17 (0)
Damn you guys!!!

You know ... I settle in on something... really like the sound .... and then THIS!! haha.... I know ... plenty of threads... but... Right now I have my 20.7s w tweeters in.... on short wall.... (17' wall).... My toe in is not 'that' toed in.... If 90 degrees is on edge... mine are probably 35-40 degrees....

I can try more toe in.... but what should I expect from it?
RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - BigguyinATL 09:08:34 09/13/17 (10)
main HT room
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

Edits: 09/13/17
- RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - vinylheathen 14:08:08 09/13/17 (9)
  That is a lot of toe in!
  - RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - BigguyinATL 13:28:18 09/15/17 (8)
    works very well! even side seats get a good center image because the seat near the loud speaker is so off axis! I previously had tweeters out and a 15 degree toe in - with the tweeters essentially in the same equilateral triangle arrangement as a more typical 15 degree toe in. The woofer/tweeter have the same distance/time delay with the interception of the speaker perpendicular bisectors in front of the listening seat instead of way behind.
    
    "The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
    - RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - paul3 15:59:00 09/15/17 (7)
      How does one confirm with complete certainty when her Magnepans are perfectly, optimally placed?
      - RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - Satie 10:29:38 09/18/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by paul3 on September 15, 2017 at 15:59:00
        
        You can use REW and a measurement mic to do an impulse response test - which will be a single sharp spike on the graph if you are properly time aligned, If not properly aligned then you would be having a smeared impulse or even emergence of a wide double topped graph.
        
        However, that is not the only thing you want from a maggie - you might want to alter freq response from the one on axis in time alignment to compensate for a hard untreated room or soft sounding room with overly treated surfaces and big stuffed furniture.
        
        RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - paul3 12:29:01 09/18/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by Satie on September 18, 2017 at 10:29:38
        
        I just downloaded the REW software (coincidentally I already have a Behringer mic), I'm mystified now, but am looking forward to learning how to use these tools. It will be a healthy exercise, especially since I'm more of a right-brain kind a guy. :)
        
        Thanks, Satie.
        
        RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - Satie 14:51:21 09/18/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by paul3 on September 18, 2017 at 12:29:01
        
        For the right brainer perhaps the listening tests should do you more than anything else, namely that image specificity, location precision and image saturation, Images outside the inter-speaker space tend to pop out and align with the rest of the soundstage when you hit alignment. Depth dimension will also be enhanced. You should note on naturally recorded fixed mic recordings how a mobile soloist (violin flute etc) moves against say a piano accompaniment while keeping its image unsmeared as it moves.. Heifetz tends to move a lot in his DG recordings from the early 60s.
        
        Watch for the shape of drum kits and piano and the match of transient and decay locations on the drums and cympals, and the separate piano impact locations and extended decays and the broadening of the image as you go down the scales to the lowest notes of the piano. Ideally a solo piano recording will have fingernail tinks on the left and will expand to ~9 ft wide on the lowest bass notes. Sometimes you can localized the hammer hits on sforzando.
        
        Brass instruments should have that startling sound onset before the brilliance comes on.
        
        RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - paul3 16:09:24 09/18/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by Satie on September 18, 2017 at 14:51:21
        
        Satie,
        Thanks for your detailed response. I hope I have not "hijacked" this thread, but the topic of the numerous ways to position Magnepans and other planar speakers, comes up often.
        
        I have found, in my room, with my electonics, that my version of "limage" placement satisfies much of what you describe. That's why I was so excited about it!
        
        I will still investigate computer analysis, but for me, listening is the ultimate test.
      - RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - watts 13:04:04 09/17/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by paul3 on September 15, 2017 at 15:59:00
        
        as far as a symmetry goes, put in Norah Jones, or Jennifer Warner, or Patricia Barber and you should see her voice dead centre. If not adjustments with either distance or toe-in need to be performed.
        
        RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - Norman M 19:30:46 09/17/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by watts on September 17, 2017 at 13:04:04
        
        I would grab any mono CD recording. Additionaly if srereo is required then a stepped stereo pan test CD: extreme L, midway to center, then dead center and on to the right side. I have
        used such a test CD, but it really doesn't answer the question. There might not be any answer.
      - RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... - Norman M 06:59:21 09/16/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: RE MMG tweets in 45 degree toe in... posted by paul3 on September 15, 2017 at 15:59:00
        
        "How does one confirm with complete certainty when her Magnepans are perfectly, optimally placed?"
        
        One has to wait until after they've died and gone to heaven.
Currently out. - grantv 06:46:26 09/13/17 (3)
Placement is everything, whatever you settle on.
I find tweeters in dictates the speakers to be toed such that the intersection of planes is ahead of me.
At one point I had tape on my floor for probably a year (more?); one for tweeters in, one for tweeters out, just in case I had an inkling to move them. It's "my" room, so nobody is concerned about some tape on the floor. It does raise questions for guests however. :)
(actually, now that I think of it... the tape is still there for my alternate position)
- RE: Currently out. - vinylheathen 14:09:33 09/13/17 (0)
  ...I have routinely used tape on the floor to mark speaker locations...it is a no brainer!
- RE: Currently out. - Swamis Cat 09:42:32 09/13/17 (1)
  Yeah, on the tweets needing to aim in front of the listener when inside. Wendell has repeatedly stated that -- especially in the i series -- the woofers and mids need to be closer than the tweeter. With tweets out that means the speaker needs very little toe in. But with tweets in it means a lot of toe in, even approaching 45 degrees in some cases as the comment above mentioned.
  
  If one measures the frequency response in the upper midrange, there are HUGE changes as toe in is adjusted, with a huge suckout if the mids aren't closer than the treble. With tweets out, too little toe in can lead to the opposite issue of a glaring midrange.
  
  Of course this is massively influenced by side wall reflections in smaller rooms. For example in the Limage set up with NO toe in and tweets in but very close to the side wall, we get the reinforcement of the midrange off the SW.
  
  Other random thoughts on tweets in or out...
  1). I find the tweets out to sound richer. Sumptuous.
  2). I find tweets in to have substantially better real world imaging specificity, but tweets out throws a further back wall of sound soundstage.
  3). Tweets out gets in the way for us imaging freaks. You can only move the speakers so far apart, and as such there is an extra 3 feet of giant monolithic panel in the middle of my precious soundstage.
  4). The bass will be better with the tweets in or out. But it depends on the room so you need to try both.
  5). The amount of toe in affects the bass quality. Extreme toe in excites the room laterally. I have tended to prefer the bass with less toe in (it is snappier), but again this would be room specific.
  6). If you have to get your speakers less than five feet from the FW, use FW diffusion or shoot the mid and tweets into the corner. I find that all the reflections and delays coming out of the corner acts like a diffuser in reducing the dreaded comb filtering which makes close to FW listening so uncomfortable.
  
  In general, I have spend substantially more time with tweets in than out. But it may be related to my rooms.
  - RE: Currently out. - jimf42 08:25:10 09/22/17 (0)
    I tried tweeters out (MGIIIa) for many years, but in the last year, switched to tweeters in. Vastly improved imaging...at least in my setup. It does however, as some have posted require more toe in. I am still experimenting
.7s out - zomax 04:17:17 09/13/17 (0)
Just tried them with tweeters out recently and was pleasantly surprised. Less "in your face" but no loss of imaging. They are on the slightly longer wall, slight toe-in, FWIW.
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Norman M 19:38:48 09/12/17 (3)
Out. (Sound somewhat 'conjested' when in.)
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 20:29:33 09/12/17 (2)
  Interesting.
  
  I am wondering if the degree of toe in affects this too.
  - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Desafinado 22:35:39 09/12/17 (0)
    With my T-IVa I favor tweeters out (17 foot short wall).
    For SMGa and MMGs tweeters in with a much closer spacing in the same room.
    
    Edits: 09/12/17
  - RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Roger Gustavsson 22:34:17 09/12/17 (0)
    Alan wrote:
    "Depends on the room and your setup. Also the type of sound you prefer. Easy to try both so find out for yourself what you like. There is no right or wrong answer to your question."
    
    Agree! Degree of toe-in and distances to the room boundaries will also make a differnce. There is for sure not an easy answer how to place a pair of Magnepan.
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - ahendler 14:40:14 09/12/17 (2)
Depends on the room and your setup. Also the type of sound you prefer. Easy to try both so find out for yourself what you like. There is no right or wrong answer to your question
Alan
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 20:27:44 09/12/17 (0)
  Magnepan in their manuals say tweets out create a wider sound field, which helps accommodate more than one listener.
  
  Interestingly, they say for the MMG, tweets in only. But I guess that makes sense as that is going to be used in a small room.
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - watts 17:22:10 09/12/17 (0)
  Mine are out on the short wall. A little too bright with them in, but I try it every so often...
RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - Satie 13:06:43 09/12/17 (1)
Out on the long wall

In on the short wall

In with square and irregular rooms
- RE: Maggie poll: Tweets In or Out? - vinylheathen 20:28:21 09/12/17 (0)
  I think this makes sense.

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