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RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6

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In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by pictureguy on September 25, 2010 at 12:46:06

Look IDIOT, I don't own the HK990 but merely offer it as a sane alternative to what's being discussed. I've owned the Mac 501's/202 and C46 and found the sound very average and not all that transparent or ballsy. The autoformers are crap and muddy up the sound something terrible! The HK is a well designed amp and dirt cheap...looks very much like one of the Levinson amps from what I can discern. Sunfire? Really...are you kidding?
dave_b

Follow Ups:

RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - The peleton 16:27:19 09/25/10 (1)
idiot? really? wow! take your medicine
- RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - thebordas 17:46:09 09/25/10 (0)
  The harsh, misguided rant against the importance of a High Current design for an amplifier ticked me off quite a bit, as I was simply offering a high value alternative to the question at hand....I've already apologized (read my followup). 4 Corona's later I'm feeling much more magnanimous:O)
  dave_b
RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - pictureguy 14:38:00 09/25/10 (9)
Sunfire? Wasn't that one of the 2 original choices? Why yell? I've seen pics of the Euro top line HK stuff.....yeah, its good. For the money the OP is going to spend of Mac, he has a dozen or more viable choices, from Spectron 'd' all the way to Pass or Bryston.

Just because I call out somebody on a ridiculous spec?

I been reading this hi-current nonsense for quite a while.
Test something, which I suspect is a little advanced for you..... Take yours or a borrowed DVM to your speaker. Turn it up to normal levels or slightly louder. measure the voltage. Google an Ohms Law Calculator and start filling in the numbers.
Since the DVM, unless it is a good one with 'peak hold' will have numbers flashing by, just double the highest voltage you see.
I wish I had a scope long enough to get a better number.

You'll be surprised at the results. Even my panels rarely see much above 10vac, though I've tested at 20vac peaks....which were pretty loud. If I uses 5.5 ohms for my Maggies, I see 35 watt or so peaks......I'd say that 2 doublings, to 150 watts should 'bout do it.

Too much is never enough
- RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - thebordas 17:39:15 09/25/10 (8)
  You were extremely harsh for no reason and I responded in kind, and for that I apologize:O) I merely mentioned a viable alternative which seems to offer excellent build quality, plenty of muscle and delivers said attributes for a veritable song! Anyone who belittles power supply reserves, current capability and or power ratings that double into a declining load, however, is living in opposite world soooo....have a nice life. No hard feelings intended.
  dave_b
  - RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - pictureguy 19:11:07 09/25/10 (7)
    I was 'harsh' at the mention of a nutty 'spec', for which no standard exists in the measure and which has little application in the real world. Even the datasheet for my 'd' amps (B&O ASP modules) have a current rating. The 'd' amp current rating is double nutty, to me because not only can the output devices not do it for long at anything over a couple volts, but the output zobel will fry. The Zobel network is a lo-pass filter used to remove all the hi frequency artifacts from power supply and switching.
    
    HK is great stuff. No question about it. What line was it....Citation? still has a following.
    
    No problem with HK whatsoever. It is specsmanship which is of little help to anyone seeking to better their system. And while I didn't mention it, doubledown has a little more validity. As an aside: it has puzzled me that NAD mentions only dynamic power into lower impedances, but the RMS power is constant........even on the 'M' series amps. I've seen a thread recently about 'are tube or SS watts more powerful'....or some such! Nobody seems to worry about NAD Amps.
    
    The UNKNOWN measure (does anyone DO this?) is how an amp performs into a real-world reactive load. Most amps, even stuff you'd never want, or would recommend, can probably do OK into a resistor. Tubes have difficulty with big impedance swings and some (capacitive or inductive? can't 'member) loads. I don't know if autoformer Mac has similar issues. Does anyone have any information on this?
    
    Is a 'better' spec the answer, or an answer? Don't know......Give me a read on this:
    If (big IF) amp measurers / testers were to agree on a real world power test, it might add some useful information. Just for Example / Trial balloon.
    Test at 8 and 4 ohms. into a resistor is fine. THAN repeat the test at +45 degrees (inductive?) and again at -45 degrees (capacitive?). When all are graphed together, you'd get a much better idea how an amp would perform. Add a short term dynamic power rating for a specified time under all test conditions......3db would probably be terrific.
    The perfect amp should deliver about 71% of it resistive power into a 45 degree load (cosine of 45degrees).
    Any less and it would indicate less than perfect performance. I don't know how any amp measures in this regard, since I've never seen any data.
    
    I would hope that what stereo folks consider better would indeed measure better under these conditions.....
    
    Again, sorry if I PO'd anybody. That was certainly not my intent. Cheers......I'm gonna go watch Sharktopus. Who thinks up that stuff?
    Too much is never enough
    - RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - thebordas 19:31:14 09/25/10 (6)
      Thanks for the heads up on Sharktopus:O)
      dave_b
      - RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - pictureguy 23:58:13 09/25/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by thebordas on September 25, 2010 at 19:31:14
        
        It was worse than you could imagine.
        Niece made me Tivo....than watch it with her.
        I'm the 'volunteer' bad movie watcher since virtually everyone else in the family can find
        something else to do......rather than watch more of that stuff.
        Worse even, than Dinocroc.
        
        Any thoughts about amp measures from my last post?
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - thebordas 07:31:03 09/26/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by pictureguy on September 25, 2010 at 23:58:13
        
        A �high-current� amplifier is capable of delivering power into low impedance loads (speakers)
        without going into protection and/or shutting down. Ideally, an amplifier�s output power would double
        every time the load presented at its output is halved. For example, an �ideal� amplifier rated 250
        Watts @ 8 Ohms would deliver 500 Watts @ 4 Ohms, noting that the load has halved and the
        power has doubled. In actuality, a �real-world� high-current amplifier capable of 250 Watts @ 8
        Ohms might be delivering about 425 Watts @ 4 Ohms.
        An easy way to identify a �high-current� amplifier for use with home consumer electronics is
        to look at what happens to the power rating as the impedance of its load (speakers) drops. The
        closer the amplifier comes to approaching the �ideal� amplifier scenario, the more current the
        amplifier is capable of delivering and the better the sound reproduced by the speaker.
        In a typical amplifier-speaker circuit, voltage and current are delivered to a very complex load
        consisting of speaker drivers, resistors, inductors, and capacitors. Voltage may be thought of as the
        potential to do work, and current as what actually flows to do the work. Although basic power may
        be calculated by the simple multiplication of voltage and current, it is the delivery of the power from
        the amplifier to the complex speaker load that accounts for why two amplifiers may have the same
        power rating into identical impedances (speaker loads), but still be significantly different from one
        another in sound quality. Some of these sound quality differences may include perceived loudness,
        depth, and clarity. Amplifiers that are designed to operate with high voltage as opposed to high
        current are typically much better suited to high impedance loads, typically 8 Ohms and higher.
        Lower current rated amplifiers have been said to sound dynamically limited and �harsh� at high
        listening levels.
        High quality �audiophile� speakers can have nominal impedances from 8 � 2 Ohms, and
        during very dynamic passages in source material can easily dip below 2 Ohms. These super low
        impedance drops can easily choke a high voltage amplifier with limited power storage capacity. For
        a high-voltage amplifier, this will likely cause problems and trigger its protection, not to mention the
        less than nice sound it may produce. A high-current amplifier operates with much less effort and
        typically does not have any problem with these types of speakers.
        High current amplifiers offer large amounts of capacitive power
        storage. Modern high current amplifiers can handle nominal impedance of 4 Ohms, as well as dips below 1
        Ohm while remaining stable, loud and clear with deep bass and good three-dimensionality. A good
        example of a �real-world� situation being very close to an �ideal� situation would be our Reference
        200.1 mono amplifier. Rated 250 Watts @ 8 Ohms with 150 peak-peak Amps of current, it is quite
        the powerhouse. When used with a 4 Ohm load the Reference 200.1 kicks out a cool 425 Watts!
        That�s about as close to perfect as one could expect.
        So, what�s the bottom line? For use with lower impedance speakers, high-current amplifiers
        sound louder, cleaner, and provide more depth than their high-voltage counterparts. High-current
        amplifiers will not shut down when the speaker presents a difficult load due to varying dynamics in
        source material.
        
        Not my writing (B&K's), but get's the message across. I've owned Levinson, Krell, ARC and Macintosh mostly. Large power supplies and storage capacitance combined with High Current capability just sound clearer, more dynamic and maintain control under complex signal demands. Equating potential HCC Amps of an amplifier to Arc welding is missing the point completely. High current capability reflects internal stability and the amps ability to reproduce complex musical signals during large impedance swings. kinda like having extra power reserves are always better for a speaker, no matter how efficient it is....the results will be less distortion, better dynamics, increased transient speed and better articulation. The HC amp sounds bolder, faster, cleaner and more "alive".
        dave_b
        
        RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - pictureguy 10:00:32 09/26/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by thebordas on September 26, 2010 at 07:31:03
        
        I had a nice post ready....and the darn thing ATE it.
        
        Anyway, in brief.
        I like robust power supplies. No question they bring some sonic benefits along with them.
        
        Big 'AMP' numbers, however don't impress me. I don't think any agreement even exists about how to measure them.....time period, load or do we or do we not stabilize the power the amp is plugged into?
        
        All those huge numbers, if delivered at a sufficient voltage, will handily exceed the SOR of any normal set of output devices. (Safe Operating Range) NAD likes hi dynamic power, which I hope is amps at voltage.
        
        The article doesn't give name to what they, in advertising mode, talk about.....Which is Power Factor.
        Power factor is when voltage and current are out of phase. The Cosine of the 'degrees' of lead / lag will give a number between 0 and 1. Zero, is the cos of 90 at which time NO power is delivered to the load. A resistor will have a theoretical value of 0 which means all the power is delivered. I don't think either extreme exists outside a lab.
        
        You never see amps rated into real world loads. People always talk about low impedance speakers as being a 'bad load'. Well, this isn't quite true. Combine a low impedance with a big phase angle and you've got a recipe for an amp killer. At least less than robust amps.
        
        I would LOVE to see a couple amps tested at 4 and 8 ohms. Test them into resistors. Than into 45degree capacitive than into a nice 45degree inductive load. We'll see who's got the goods.
        
        Also, the article glosses over the difference between current source and voltage source amplifiers. The perfect (doesn't exist) zero output impedance SS amp is also a voltage source, while tubes are considered a current source. As kind of an aside, there are a few users here who like really small wire for speaker leads. They may be adding enough resistance to the circuit to simulate a current source amp. Carver had an amp, some time ago with separate voltage and current source outputs. The current source outputs just had some series resistance.
        
        Time for breakfast.:: Amp ON!
        Too much is never enough
        http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - thebordas 17:45:32 09/26/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by pictureguy on September 26, 2010 at 10:00:32
        
        All I can sau is that I've owned the big amps were talking about and I can attest to the fact that the more powerfull amps of either tube (ARC VT200MKII) or solid state (Krell FPB600) sounded sooooo much better in every way. Of course they were well designed amps:O)
        dave_b
        
        RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - esande 08:35:38 09/26/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by thebordas on September 26, 2010 at 07:31:03
        
        No question that more is better. Whether its better in a qualitative sense as some argue or a quantitative sense, as most use, it's better.
        
        But there is the question of which amp actually sounds better.
        
        Now ideally, an amp shouldn't sound like anything at all. Its job is to make the signal bigger. But the fact is they do color the signal.
        
        It would actually be a wash for me, I'd probably take a Pass or a recent Bryston before either of the choices. If I had to go solid state.
        
        RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - pictureguy 10:02:07 09/26/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sunfire vs. McIntosh Amp for Magnepan 3.6 posted by esande on September 26, 2010 at 08:35:38
        
        BINGO!
        
        Too much is never enough

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