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RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design

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In Reply to: RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design posted by marty1675 on September 18, 2010 at 13:59:55

More likely, I think, that they'll leave it as it is, since few if any rear projection sets are sold these days. Why the center channel speaker, anyway? Unless you have theater-style seating and need to anchor the dialogue for people sitting at the sides of the room, it does nothing except degrade the sound.

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RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - marty1675 14:32:04 09/18/10 (6)
Many people who buy 60 to 70" flat panel TVs are not likely to put them on a stand as high as 32" and be looking up at the TV. Most would prefer a lower stand. My point remains the same.

I can't imagine not having a center speaker to lock dialogue in the middle. It improves the sound and does not degrade it. Magnepan apparently agrees on that point, given the introduction of new center speakers, even if they are of the wrong height and impractical.
- RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - josh358 15:35:26 09/18/10 (5)
  I have a 100" projection screen and there's plenty of room for a Maggie woofer under it. Not sure if it would accommodate the center channel speaker too, I wasn't interested in that, just in finding a way to fit a larger planar woofer in my undersized listening room. Of course, some may prefer their screens lower down. You can't accommodate everyone.
  
  Magnepan sells center speakers because people buy them! And because they do have a legitimate purpose in the case of theater-style seating. But the quality of the Maggie center channel speaker doesn't match that of the 20.1, not to mention most of their other models. Even if it did, the soundstage height would be wrong because they're too low. And a center channel speaker reduces the quality of the stereo image for a listener in the center because of phasing problems. The center channel is there only because it's needed in a theater. And most home users don't realize this, so they waste money on something that merely compromises their sound.
  
  For that reason, I always recommend that people avoid a center channel unless as I said they have theatrical style seating, or have to push their speakers so far apart to accommodate sight lines that they end up with a hole in the middle. In that case, it's still best to disable the center channel speaker when there's no one sitting to the side. The dialogue won't go anywhere if you're sitting in the middle!
  
  IMO, it would be a crying shame to have this stuff reproducing most of the music when it could be reproduced by two true line sources with a much bigger woofer, a push-pull midrange, and perhaps the finest tweeter ever made.
  - RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - marty1675 15:48:21 09/18/10 (4)
    Of course it works for your 100" screen. That's not my point, is it?
    
    Especially if it is a screen that drops, since how far it drops can be adjusted. I have a 110" screen, that drops in front of my TV, and any center speaker, no matter what size, would work with my screen. But many times I watch TV with the lights on and need a center that works with both my TV and drop screen. But not everyone who buys these speakers has the luxury of a drop screen or anything that is 100".
    
    Almost everyone with EITHER a 60" flat panel or a 60" rear projector will have it on a stand that is 6" to 8" lower than the combined CC and CCR. Almost no one will have it on a stand that is 32" up in the air.
    
    I still think it is an incredibly dumb design, and reflects that Magnepan didn't go to a Best Buy or TV store and use a tape measure. Yes it works with a drop screen. No, it doesn't work with any existing rear projector OR with the lower height stands that would be used by most people with 60" to 70" flat panel TVs.
    
    If you have six to seven people in a room, or more, three or more will be off-axis. For them a center speaker is mandatory.
    
    Does it compromise the 20.1s for music? Yes. So turn off the center and use stereo or analog bypass straight to the 20.1s.
    
    My original point still applies. For those who want to use a center speaker, this design will likely not work for anyone with either a 60 to 70" flat panel or rear projector TV.
    - RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - josh358 16:12:30 09/18/10 (3)
      Well, I don't like to second guess the designers without good information on the trades they faced, such as perceived image height (the closer to ear level the better), lateral dispersion, and dipole cancellation, as well as an understanding of the anticipated market. And if I had to accommodate a plasma or LCD, I'd just use a taller stand.
      
      None of which of course applies in your situation, or to that of others who have rear projection sets. Since you do have reason to use your center channel, it seems to me that your best option would be the bass rerouting one. How much does the base cost? If it's $1600 like the Maggie woofer, an electronic bass routing solution would cost less.
      - RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - marty1675 16:55:14 09/18/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design posted by josh358 on September 18, 2010 at 16:12:30
        
        I can only report that Wendell did not raise any of those issues about lateral dispersion, etc. He had simply *not* considered that the height of both the CC and CCR would not work and was surprised to hear that.
        
        And, again, this applies to almost all 60" flat screens AND rear projectors. I believe most people would use a stand of less than 32" for a 60" TV regardless of the type -- for the same reason that manufacturers put rear projectors on stands are less than 32"
        
        This is only a difference of 8" at most. But those 8" matter for 60" TVs. Look at the photo of the CCR and CC on the web site. By simply making the CC stand wider, they could have easily reduced the height by that amount. But, based on my conversation with Wendell, Magnepan never even considered it.
        
        Not sure how much a bass router would cost. I'd prefer to just use my Lexicon MC12HD. I can't comment on whether other high end processors work like the Lexicon, which rules out the precise bass management suggested by Magnepan.
        
        My view is that Magnepan has cost themselves a significant market share by virtue of a design that is about 8" too high. They will eventually have to correct it. I will wait and use my Martin Logan center in the meantime, however long that will be.
        
        Others in the same situation should look at other centers such as Martin Logan.
        
        RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - IEaudiodude 21:33:50 12/30/13 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design posted by marty1675 on September 18, 2010 at 17:55:14
        
        Rear projection ???? People actually still use those ? And stands ?? What are those for ? I thought adjustable wall mount brackets were what people use in 2013. I did see a place that still carries rear projection Mitsubishi stuff, but they are still to damn big and take up way to much space compared with a flat panel on the wall.Come to think of it I don't think I know anyone that has rear projection these days. I think the center channel problem might affect about 0.5% of HDTV owners so Magnepan has it about right. IMHO as always :^)
        
        RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design - josh358 18:10:44 09/18/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan center CCR & CC flawed design posted by marty1675 on September 18, 2010 at 16:55:14
        
        You could use an active crossover and a couple of resistors. Or throw together a passive one. Kludgy, I know: Lexicon should just direct the midbass from any speaker set to small to the front speaker on the same side if that speaker is set to large, or both front speakers in the case of a center speaker set to small. That they apparently don't seems to me a design oversight on their part.

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