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I have heard inexpensive systems that sound great ,,, but on the flip side I have walked into rooms at major audio shows and walked out thinking the room sounded mediocre ..... at best.
I wonder if there is a formula for spending a lot of money and not getting great sound quality ?
..... just asking
Follow Ups:
Nt
*
Thinking that throwing $$$$ at expensive gear and cables will automatically make the system sound good.......Overlooking factors like impedance matching between preamp and amp or between amp and speakers..... Or cartridge and phono stage......
Or using underpowered electronics in a large room. (This often occurs with demos in which the person demo'ing the system normally plays the system in a smaller room.) Or misdiagnosing a sonic flaw in which making a change in attempt to mitigate the flaw ends up making things worse........
Maybe the biggest one is using a source that isn't all that great (or if a turntable, not set up optimally) or not paying enough attention to the pressings being played...... (I've encountered demos on YouTube of megabuck systems playing noticeably compromised audio tracks..... )
There are a lot of oversights that can occur in system building, in which putting more money into the system alone will not necessarily cure the resultant sonic disappointments.
Edits: 04/15/23
Compound that trend across amp/digital/hi-tech speaker materials result in a ready ability to expose/emphasize flaws in both system and rooms.
I'm not pining for dull or nostalgic sound to be the benchmark either.
It may be my eyes but the big shiny metal boxes and drivers seem to be the ones that no matter the $$$$, are nearly as steely sounding as they look. Damn accurate, damn uncomfortable fairly quickly.
To the degree a loudspeaker is accurate, meaning it's reproduction of the input signal without error, the greater the number of generations one can pass a signal and still be "listenable".
They don't do "generation loss tests" with loudspeakers because each pass highlights what's wrong and it's unusual for a speaker to go more than 3 generations vs electronics which pass many generations.
I've never done that type of testing with a loudspeaker.
If emphasis and faults can be found after couple generations, could help refine the hard to refine.
What conditions (like test environment to reduce room interactions), what level of quality for recording (tape vs hard drive, mic type and it quality), what is the frequency limits due to measurement (like bass below 200 needs to be spliced in vs above 200 type deal)
Any docs or websites that might fill in details without having to bug all here or that dont need 10 years of experience in reading doctoral thesis skills?
I can see benefit, but also could envision details required to implement the test correctly could be very specific and detailed.
Hi
Well the Generation loss test was very popular in the days of recording tape for the same reasons. We started doing this at work out of curiosity as much as anything else about 18 years ago.
What we did was use a measurement mic and a 24/96 recorder.
We put the speaker on top of a ladder with the microphone at a meter.
We played a section of music (parts of several tracks edited together) and recorded the mic signal (and in the beginning we also made a gen loss copy of the music track but after 5 generations there was no detectable difference in the direct audio so we stopped that and just did the speakers).
Now days i would skip the MI recorder and get a Motu m2 or other good usb interface and a decent measurement mic. IF you have a set of good headphones, there is something important you can discover too.
They did an interview for a recording magazine at work and some of it was edited into a video that goes into the gen loss test and some on how we hear.
Hope this video makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tE8yVtw1-o&t=2s
Up high outside "chamber" and normal mic requirements and distance.
Will give a shot , thanks for idea/ info
Is that "accuracy" or is that coloration leaning towards lean and bright spectral balance? If a system is accurate and the subjective result is antiseptic then it would stand to reason that the original recording was "antiseptic."
I believe that "accurate" is an idealistic quality that almost never occurs in reality...... (And whenever it does, hardly anyone would realize it.) And too many of us think it somehow equates to an "analytical" or "antiseptic" sonic presentation.
Edits: 04/15/23
I will confess that at times I generously use the term accurate to really describe overly forward and edgy.
I am trying not to offend possible owners of gear and their musical preferences.
"It may be my eyes but the big shiny metal boxes and drivers seem to be the ones that no matter the $$$$, are nearly as steely sounding as they look. "
Most of these metal boxes are also available in black - for a less steely sound ;-)
enn tee
all the best,
mrh
I have clear memories from age 17 when my system consisted of Technics SL110/SME3009/Ortofon M15, H-K Citation 11, Crown D-150 driving double Advents. The dealer who sold me the electronics lent me an Audio Research SP-3a for the weekend.
Wow.
The opening shakers in Do It Again sounded more lifelike - a certain "steeliness" was replaced with a more transparent and delicate voice.
I'm enjoying an SP20 today. :)
I have several Steely Dan but these have been in rotation lately at my place:
Nt
I love the band. I enjoy listening to their recordings. Aja is on balance pretty good quality of a recording. But none of their recordings would make my "demo" list unless I am demoing how a system sounds with a regular recording as opposed to an audiophile recording.
.
Gsquared
Mark, I only heard Steely Dan once today at Axpona and only one room was playing orchestra music, a room with KHorns. Must were playing insipid audiophile music, most with no human voice. In one room the guy said he was putting on a tune from West Side story and I foolishly hoped it was music from the 1961 movie. Nope, it was horseshit audiophile West Side Story full of "air" and a rinky-dink arrangement. The most impressive speakers were $1700 a pair JBLs with a vinyl wrap finish played with "regular guy" electronics. Not the best but very impressive when compared to the mega buck systems, some of which the JBLs bettered. They made me say "What the fuck..."
I just finished watching West Side Story, it sounded great over my Altec 890Cs. As it should, right?
enn tee
all the best,
mrh
Enjoyed the chuckle
I could have to you anyway but the timing is on point. I just listened to a $1,200,000.00 system. Sounded like crap.
Two words. Room acoustics. That system had $330K in cabling and $0.00 in bass traps or other acoustic treatments.
that's a spicy meatball
It boggles my mind that anyone would spend $330,000.00 on patch cords and speaker wire.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
Nt
Doesn't that depend on how many times absolute polarity gets inverted going through the electronics? You need to know that first, to determine cable directionality.
The correct direction of cables is unrelated to polarity. Polarity has to do with cables being attached incorrectly (reversed) at the speaker or amp terminals + and -. You know, like "polar opposites." Inverse Polarity can also be caused by something other than cables, for example speaker is wired incorrectly or polarity inversion of some electronics. The correct direction for cables or fuses - if they don't have arrows on them - is determined by listening both ways. To test for system absolute polarity you need a test test with that track on it.
Edits: 04/18/23 04/18/23 04/18/23
It's insanity
as I suggested below.
Thanks,
john
I think I already did but I will check again tomorrow
The set up was very problematic and the results suffered for it.
john
" nothing - there is nothing behind door 584 - and you stay out ..... do you hear me ? ......stay OUT ! "
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
A system that lacks synergy. There is no formula for synergy.
But there are formulas for fixing rooms. Not many folks doing the rooms at Axpona seem to want to deal with that.
You do, however, get quite the meter collection. ;)
.
nt
The room is actually a bit larger from this (scroll down) view. Plenty of additional width for the $1800 BFM clock.
Not sure how the "Experience Director" would find that.
Remember all those Magnepan ads with giant Maggies pushed against a wall ?
:D
perhaps you can cite an example.
Here's what I find in terms of pics on their website.
FWIW & YMMV.
john
Luck.
The best system at any price point is the one with strengths that align most with the system owners preferences. I like to think of it as the heaping on of strengths. I call it synergy. Some like to call balancing strengths and weaknesses as synergy - me I call that the road to assembling the most "meh" system or a heaping on of weaknesses.
In my experience, when that happens, there usually is a reason... and the reason is often-times, non-obvious. NOTE, I am talking about home systems, and not audio show rooms, which always have Angelic (or Satanic) Hosts of Uncontrolled Variables.
Two things I have encountered more than once are:
1) The real motivation was "The Transactional Experience."
Far too many audiophiles are more interested in being able to brag to their buddies about what a great bargainer they are, rather than buying for VALUE.
If a guy thinks that he "saved" $50,000 on his "Dog's Breakfast" of a system, and that's the most important thing, then that system usually sounds like a Dog's Breakfast.
One guy reached out for advice. He was the perfect candidate for Wilson Benesch loudspeakers--or at least, he pretended to be. He called every Wilson Benesch dealer he could locate, shopping for a bargain. He was mortally offended that they suggested that he should pay retail, buy them once, and buy them right.
He somehow stumbled onto a dealer who offered him 40% off on the floor-demo Dunlavys they had on display. The guy later told me that he wasn't in love with the sound, but "he could not pass up the bargain." Then he belatedly found out that Dunlavy had closed up shop. "That bastard didn't tell me that they were out of business!"
And of course, once the dust had settled, the Wilson Benesch speakers cost a lot more because of currency fluctuations.
If a celebrated craftsperson (YT attached) tells you that a certain guitar costs $6000 (or whatever), that is that. Don't embarrass yourself with a lowball offer, just because Guitar Center is having a Saint Patrick's Day sale when a Fender knockoff that lists for $799 and their usual price is $599 but TODAY the price is $399... That Chinese guitar probably cost GC not more than $150. So, that's really a $75 guitar, plus 100% markup by the maker.
2) Getting great sound was not the most important thing.
I was asked to troubleshoot a home audio system that supposedly cost way more than $100,000, but which could not create a solid phantom center image on my mono test track of Ella Fitzgerald singing "Easy to Love." Epic fail, to the point that I had to run Stereophile's Test CD 2, to make sure the speakers were not relatively out of phase!!!
Well, there were Boulder electronics ($$$$) and IIRC the biggest Dynaudios of the time, and... Oh, I almost forgot the Wilson Audio subwoofers!!! Dog's Breakfast. WELL!
The loudspeakers were spaced to make room for the drop-down video screen. They were pointed straight forward because "that looked better." The room had been acoustically deadened down to National Security Agency standards, for HOME THEATER.
That guy was very poorly advised, IMHO.
ciao,
john
Yep, I've seen it happen quite a bit. Some folks I know buy items that are on sale or at a massive discount and then try to cobble it all together expecting immediate synergy. IOW, throwing what are logical (but more costly of course) choices aside in favor of "getting a deal".
This knife cuts both ways. Sometimes the deal is there and requires more spending - it's not just cheapsters who get caught in this trap. It happened to me twice - where the all the work to find the right upgrade based on how much more I was going to spend and my system and preferences had been completed and the choice made. At last minute the dealer, who I had been working with, offered me a more expensive product (at a great price but still more than I was planning on spending). From experience just spending more can be as bad and maybe even worse than not spending enough.
Yep, I've been on both sides of that equation myself. With 45+ years in the hobby, it's pretty difficult not to have passed thru the "school of hard knocks" at least a couple of times if not more.
Getting derailed by the deal. And FWIW with research and listening required to make a good decisions paying full retail is still a bargain compared to buying something based on relying on the experience of others, magazine reviews or recommended component lists.
Edits: 04/15/23
Sure, the acoustic principals and driver properties and execution that governs what it sounds like when your eyes are closed.
Eyes open it's also what it looks like perhaps more strongly than what your hear as people have expectations about materials shapes etc
See your eyes dominate the conclusion over ones ears, Google and try "the McGurke effect"
Yea but the ooohs and aaahs from girlfriends, neighbors, teammates, business partners, etc. might be worth much more to some system buyers than sound quality. Not sure why audiophiles would think someone with 4,000 sq. ft. living room would share the same values as the commoners? What's a 1/2 million to accessorize the living room of the average 100 ft + yacht owner?
Hilarious to think some dealer down the road is on the edge of his seat waiting for me to come into his shop.
Back on topic - there is something really special about green and orange LEDs.
Intriguing point and interesting that a recent study claims that "skilled musicians" may not be subject (or to a lesser extent) to the McGurke effect.
I've often wondered about the eye candy effect of audio gear on auditory perception..
So maybe for a high end manufacture of audio - having a component look like it sounds good is actually more important than having one that actually sounds good - LOLfor me personally Wilson speakers look really cool but never quite sound as good as they look .... other than their dynamics - but I can never recall walking out of a Wilson room thinking they blew my mind ,,,,, yet I have seen newbie audiophile with their jaws on the ground listening to them .... where as the silly looking Audio Note speakers were the exact opposite ..... as if they actually care much more about the sound over the looks
they say you should never pick a Wife based on looks - its a recipe for disaster - perhaps the same with audio
its an interesting topic and a great thread
Edits: 04/15/23 04/15/23
I like my women slim and sexy and my speakers fat and ugly.
"....having a component look like it sounds good is actually more important......"
To my ears and eyes you describe Audio Research perfectly. I -want- to love the sound of their gear because my eyes love the look. Clean modern lines, understated laboratory instrument styling, some with meters [w/o the garish McIntosh blue glow]. Nice looks, pedestrian sound.
On the other hand I think Rogue gear looks pedestrian to ugly but I love their sound.
for me personally Wilson speakers look really cool but never quite sound as good as they look...
flat black Polane Sherwin-Williams makes! ;)
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