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SVS Subwoofer

100.38.89.205
Posted on July 18, 2024 at 07:42:36
zacster
Audiophile

Posts: 2201
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 I finally got rid of my SVS sub. It was one of those cylindrical monsters that took up too much space. I stopped using it even for watching movies years ago since I almost never turned the surround on anyway except to watch GoT, and that's been over a long time already too. My main speakers go down to 23hz and that was plenty low for normal watching, and certainly for music.

If I used it 10 times to watch movies that would be a lot, and when I tried it with music it just didn't sound good, too much of that thump, thump sound. I could probably have experimented with placement if I had a larger room that wasn't already filled with stuff.

 

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RE: SVS Subwoofer, posted on July 18, 2024 at 16:25:28
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Having recently been persuaded into investing a significant sum on subs (I've always been sceptical of their worth with high spec main speakers), I'm tending to agree - they really don't add much and the money involved is better spent in getting first class full-range main speakers.

 

RE: SVS Subwoofer, posted on July 18, 2024 at 20:16:20
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4435
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 One of the problems is most subs don't have a high pass filter which admittedly is difficult to do. But done right it opens ups the octaves above the sub substantially.

 

Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 06:26:09
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 Integration of a sub or subs is not trivial although it may work for casually-implemented and casually-enjoyed HT or audio systems.

For those who really care about good (and accurate) reproduction, having just HP and LP filters available is not sufficient when adding additional sound sources in the freqeuncy range that is most heavily influenced by room modes and placement. One needs measurement tools and correction filters, ideally via DSP, to both optimize and integrate the sources below the critical (Schoeder) frequency.

 

RE: Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 07:42:15
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks Kal

Yes, it certainly isn't a trivial job, nor one that most "amateur" users (including myself) can do properly on their own, particularly if we already have full-range main speakers.

I've been struggling but helped by the guys at REL with regard to where to start with the settings available. Although I sometimes feel the bass is that much deeper and more robust, there are other times when the bass "booms" or "honks" when the subs are on, and I've not established why I get better sound on one track and worse on another!

I prefer not to use Dirac Live DSP (I have it in my NAD M33) because it slightly reduces the top end sparkle that my AG Duo XD speakers can deliver. I don't like the fact that the entire signal (not just the sub 500 Hz part that Dirac adjusts) has to pass through this signal processor.

I do have the option of engaging a subwoofer filter within the M33 in order to cut the lowest frequencies from the amp's speaker outputs, leaving those low frequencies entirely for the sub, but there are potential difficulties with that.

Or, I could move to the M66 that offers Dirac Live Bass Control. Although I know very little about this, I'd want to satisfy myself that the top end does not pass through any signal processor. From what others have said here (or on other forums), DL has to be active in order to use DLBC. Do you know if that's true?

I'm hoping that the M66 can send an unmolested signal to the main speakers (thus retaining top end sparkle), while applying DLBC to the sub outputs. Do you have experience with DLBC or could offer hints? Thanks

 

RE: Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 10:10:08
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 "I prefer not to use Dirac Live DSP (I have it in my NAD M33) because it slightly reduces the top end sparkle that my AG Duo XD speakers can deliver."
You can set a curtain in DL to prevent any corrections/adjustments above the critical frequency (or anywhere you want).

"I don't like the fact that the entire signal (not just the sub 500 Hz part that Dirac adjusts) has to pass through this signal processor."
Inevitable.

"I'm hoping that the M66 can send an unmolested signal to the main speakers (thus retaining top end sparkle), while applying DLBC to the sub outputs."
That is impossible.

 

To complicate things, not all bass is recorded equally, posted on July 19, 2024 at 11:21:26
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1433
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 So no matter how precise the measurement tools and correction filters, which are adjusted via test tones, some music recordings will still boom and others will be bass-shy.

A lot of modern recordings put the bass in yo' face, while many older ones (like lots of 1950s and '60s jazz) put the bassist in a cardboard box on the loading dock behind the studio. Often with the drummer right next to him, playing cardboard drums.

So even when room response is optimized, the listener may wish to boost or dial back the LF response for certain recordings.

 

You may recall..., posted on July 19, 2024 at 11:23:34
acres verde
Audiophile

Posts: 734
Location: Big Easy
Joined: November 13, 2004
 ...that I also have Duos and I have the exact same concerns/reservations about DSP implementation as you do.

 

RE: You may recall..., posted on July 19, 2024 at 12:29:17
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Yes indeed - and we both use Atma-Sphere amps to power them. Ralph's well-known OTLs for you and his more modest gallium nitride Class D for me.

With twin 12", or even twin 10" bass drivers, who really needs subs?

Another coincidence - we both registered at AA within 2 weeks of one another - way back in 2004. Peter

 

RE: Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 12:41:34
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 > You can set a curtain in DL to prevent any corrections/adjustments above the critical frequency (or anywhere you want).

Yes, and the DL in the M33 has this pre-set at 500 Hz (unless you pay extra for the full frequency DL) - but you can't prevent the higher frequencies from passing through the digital processor, unless you XO beforehand and send only bass frequencies to a DSP, then to a dedicated amp, while the upper frequencies could go to another amp without DSP.

> Inevitable.

Yes with full-range amps that include DSP. Solution described above but adds complication and cost

> That is impossible.

Not sure why that should be. The M66 is capable of XO'ing the signal and could (if NAD wanted it) send the bass only to a DLBC and then to the Sub Outs, while the rest could bypass all DSP and leave the M66 via the main output sockets.

Are you sure this is not what could be done within the M66? I don't know, but I see no reason why it couldn't be done that way. Thanks

 

RE: Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 13:48:26
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 "Not sure why that should be. The M66 is capable of XO'ing the signal and could (if NAD wanted it) send the bass only to a DLBC and then to the Sub Outs, while the rest could bypass all DSP and leave the M66 via the main output sockets.

Are you sure this is not what could be done within the M66? I don't know, but I see no reason why it couldn't be done that way. Thanks"

DB-BC involves integration of subs and mains including configuration of crossover filters above and below the nominal c/o frequency and phase correlation within the shared portion of the spectrum. It cannot correct the sub(s) only; that would be the sound of one hand clapping.

P.S.: It works well on the M66.

 

RE: Now we are getting somewhere.............., posted on July 19, 2024 at 14:19:36
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I'll have to borrow an M66 to see if it causes less damage to the higher frequencies then DL does in the M33. I'm anxiously waiting for a Stereophile or HFN review that will hopefully provide a comprehensive description.

As it happens I can do without DL as my speakers (Avantgarde Duo XD) have a rather less user-friendly DSP built into its bass amps, but of course this wouldn't help with the REL subs that I'm considering ditching.

 

RE: To complicate things, not all bass is recorded equally, posted on July 19, 2024 at 14:26:00
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I'm not talking about one recording vs another, but that some tracks cause an apparent conflict between the main speakers and the subs, whereas with others, they seem quite well integrated.

It's not a simple matter of reducing bass on some tracks that are poorly recorded or mastered.

 

RE: To complicate things, not all bass is recorded equally, posted on July 19, 2024 at 16:11:46
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 2827
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 "I'm not talking about one recording vs another, but that some tracks cause an apparent conflict between the main speakers and the subs"

Please give us a few examples.

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

Reviews on the way..............(NT), posted on July 19, 2024 at 16:19:41
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002


 

RE: To complicate things, not all bass is recorded equally, posted on July 20, 2024 at 01:31:54
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I've not made a point of noting which tracks seem to cause conflict, but it's noticeable each time I spend time listening to music. Even sources such as Radio Paradise will often feature such a track.

As I said before it's nothing to do with the quality of the recording as there's no problem playing it with subs switched off. It could well be more to do with individual frequencies than the recording itself. When the 12" drivers in my main speakers are working with the 12" drivers in the subs, they either work happily together or they argue - perhaps only at particular frequencies!

 

Remote control EQ presets available for over a decade. nT, posted on July 20, 2024 at 21:10:56
M-dB
Audiophile

Posts: 299
Location: Nor Cal
Joined: June 26, 2014
 *

 

Using measured response.., posted on July 21, 2024 at 07:19:09
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 the only EQ needed in the HT system is on the LFE channel for the pair of diagonally placed subs.

No need to corrupt the eight octave signal to the stats. :)

 

I recently added a pair of good subs (SVS SB-3000) to my Magnepan 3.6Rs..., posted on July 26, 2024 at 10:02:35
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2255
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 with a first-order passive line-level HP. They work very well to take away the sense of the main speakers being "cut off at the knees" in the low bass, the result being things sounding much more natural to me.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

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