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...because I felt the result was in question. Since each subsequent session from one to five yielded the same result I'm posting. I guess part of me wanted to doubt the result. There was no doubt what I was hearing all five times. The doubt was in what seems to be doing it. So the doubting Thomas in me (my last name IS Thomas) has said uncle, it's for real.
Some background:
My last tweaks recently* have been: 1) the ground loop (four-one on each speaker ground post as I bi-amp) 2) I went from a CD transport to a Squeezebox classic (into the same DAC with the same digital cable) 3)Better suspension under my transport (moot as it's no longer used) 4) The copper foil tweak; one inch by half inch adhesive foil on all windows in the listening room.
I posted on the ground loops and how nice they were/are and how I should have done them long ago as they were easy and I had everything on hand to make them.
I've posted on the Squeezebox and felt it sounded the same or perhaps not quite as good but not really noticeable. I called it a wash in another post. I use several recordings for reference testing and had loaded those all on to my music server. I plan to use the SB for a month more and then go back to my transport and see what I hear after an extended period of streaming. Streaming is fun and has gone well although I only have about 2% of my collection ripped so far. More later.
So you guessed it, the shocker is the copper foil tweak. It really did work for me. First let me say I have a lot of glass in the listening room. Well over 200 square feet of surface area (two dimensions) in the listening room. All of the glass is covered when listening either by special latex backed curtains or cloth blinds or something.
So I was thinking the first time I listened after adding the copper foil that other things were at play. Perhaps better power that day or who knows what. Each time I've listened though the same things occur: bigger better more succinct image. Cleaner top end. Much more decay is audible. This was an easy to do tweak in about ten minutes since I already had copper foil tape that I use on the Detail Magnifiers. Now I'm wondering if more is better. I also ran out of tape and ordered more which I need anyway but there is also about 35-40 square feet of mirror that hasn't been "foiled" yet. So we'll see. Anyone else actually try this? If so what were your results? Thanks in advance.
ET
* recently = the last 45-60 days
Follow Ups:
Both Enacom and Harmonix had similar items, back in the 90's.Harmonix had these chrome plated ( or what appeared to be chrome plated)chicklet sized devices you placed on equipment or even the corners of your room to control resonance. Placement in the room corners was about four to six inches away from the actual corner IIRC.
Enacom made this roughly 20 mm round sticker with green printing of what appeared to be a Buddhist swastika ( backward from the German one) in a stylized circular motif, and was supposedly applied in a similar fashion to the Harmonix. The enacom could also be appled to CD's.
Again it was supposed to be resonance control.
Stu
Edits: 03/05/13
Speaking of resonance control esp. for windows one really shouldn't forget Golden Sound's Acoustic Discs, Marigo Tuning Dots and Mikro size Brilliant Pebbles.
About two and a half weeks ago I placed the 1/2" by 1" adhesive backed copper tape on every window pane and glass door in my apartment. I believe the OP said every one in the apartment/house not just the listening room.
Anyway...I then played a particular Bach oboe concerto recording that I really like but had always thought was a little strident. For whatever reason, it no longer had the strident quality to it. Also thought that timbre seemed a little more realistic and just sounded a little more musical and less "hi-fi".
I chalked it all up to wishful thinking but I really don't know and the tape remains on each pane and glass door panel.
Joe
I "hear" ya. I was a bit perplexed as to my results so much so that I made myself do many listening tests before posting on this. Usually I do one session or perhaps two. By perplexed I mean I didn't understand it, I heard what I heard consistently in every session.
It seems our HF experience is a little different as you consider the HF less strident which may equate to less or smoother. My HF was boosted or higher and I cannot say if it was also better but there is/was more of it. The image and decay and I should have added detail improved as well.
I still have many other things in the room to treat once my new roll of tape arrives. I have to admit I am puzzled so that I considered not posting on this tweak as I cannot fathom why it might work.
ET
Ummm, because you wanted it to? Expectation bias is incredibly powerful...
-RW-
-RW-
I totally disagree with about everything you say audio-wise. Um I never either want a certain outcome nor do I have expectations on any tweak I try or have ever tried. What makes a person like you think you might even have a clue as to what someone else's thought process might be? Are you always this pretentious? Oh wait, duh! Of course you are! Have a nice day. Oh and this post had the exact outcome I wanted by the way. Now go away.
ET
I have no idea what your beef is with the other guy, but what he says has a kernel of truth. Whether you are conscious of your bias or not, and whether your bias is in the positive or negative direction (e.g., "this tweak will NOT work"), you (and I and everyone) do have a subconscious bias, if only because you know you changed something. I hate to say it, but this is why serious "scientific" work that requires human judgement as data always must be done in a double-blind fashion, and preferably placebo-controlled, at least if you want to publish it in a reputable journal. I personally am fine with reading about your subjective opinion here, but that's what it is; that's all it is.
so we end at OBJ v SUB? Wow, that never happened on an Internet BBS.........
Consider yourself to have had the last word!
ET
He should do some minor tweak and give himself permission to be happy. Or, better, figure out that he can just give himself permission without a reason.
Unlikely, though. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Agreed, thanks for the reply Tony
ET
What are your windows like?
We got vinyl ones with argon filling and extra thick glass maybe 15 years ago and they are quite 'damped' sounding when thumped.
Does the tape make an discernible difference in how they sound when rapped with your knuckles?
I didn't notice any change in the stereo but the room is quieter which is nice.
Tnx, Rick
First was with simple blue painter's tape: easy to remove and relocate. The sound of the glass plane in the door exhibited a change using the thump test ( two sheets 2 1/2 feet square). Higher frequencies are reduced. Interestingly, depending on the location, the resonant frequency seems to change. Corners seem to have the most upper frequency propagation. Center of the plane seems to do very little (eigenmodes, perhaps).Replacing the painter's tape with copper tape adds more top end at the expense of the upper bass in terms of tonality. The top end seems to be clearer though. Bass is somewhat restored when the copper is covered with the painter's tape. Actually, the best location in my experience is about one third of the way from two of the major sides. The paper tape, of course, has way less top end than the metal. I have some aluminum tape somewhere, but can't locate it as I haven't the need for it for some time. Haven't tried duct tape either
Your interpretations may vary, but it seems to me to be a damping of the glass. The old IAR by Peter Moncrief (whatever happened to him?) had an excellent article on eigenmodes, it would be worthwhile to dig it up, but unfortunately my back issues were destroyed in a storage leak.
Stu
Edits: 02/16/13
Does it have to be copper tape? If it is a damping (sounds reasonable) effect then other (more accessible) types of tape (aluminium, rubber, duct etc.) should work also. I can imagine that some of the Herbie products might be worth experimenting in this regard.
BTW..PM is still around. I recently had an email conversation with him regarding one of his products (Wonder Solder).
The tweak also affects ambient noise: fan noise, AC noise , etc.
Stu
Not sure this tweak would do anything for me. My windows are behind the speakers, but normally for critical listening heavy curtains are pulled down and these are magnetically sealed to the boundary of the window frame to block out light and heat transfer. There is an obvious change in sound quality when raising or lowering these Roman blinds.
Perhaps I should try reef knots in the cords that work these blinds.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
> > > "Perhaps I should try reef knots in the cords that work these blinds." < < <
Now, that WOULD be interesting if you could try the Reef Knot technique in the cords of the blinds !!
Our experiences have shown that some people can detect a change in the sound far more when going back to listening to how it was before the Reef knot was tied. I.e. When listening to some music after tying a Reef Knot and getting used to that sound, they might not be absolutely sure if they have heard a definite improvement but when they then remove the Reef knot and listen again, they can readily hear that the sound is now not anyway near as pleasant and as enjoyable as when the Reef knot was in place.
As I say, it will be interesting.
If you DO have success with the Reef knot technique, then I would suggest another technique to try with curtains. Pin back (with a safety pin) ONE corner of ONE curtain !!!
Regards,
May Belt
Manufacturer.
The Copper Foils Tweak AKA Flying Saucers was developed using my headphone system. If you see what I mean. SET Hybrid tube amp, Modded Oppo 103, naked Sennheisers.
Edits: 02/17/13
at all
...
As I wrote: I tried blue painter's masking tape first: Easy to remove and to experiment with placement without worrying about any size changes. I determined the most optimal placement with the masking tape and then subbed the copper tape with an increase in top end. Placing the blue tape over the copper increased the amount of bass. The copper tape is harder to work with and doesn't stand up well to repeated removal and placement.
I'm sure other forms of tape would yield different sonic properties and may also have different optimal placement.
As far as damping is concerned, one of the best tapes i have tried is the 3M VHB (Very High Bond). They make a version with red plastic backing and uses a clear plastic substrate similar to the the 3M tube dampeners of old. I believe Staples carries it and it sells for about $25-$30 a roll. Expensive but when I first bought it, when it was first introduced, it cost me $200 a roll !
Of course the plastic has such extreme damping properties a very small piece would work, so that tape may be overkill.
Haven't had time to experiment with other tapes, but your experience would be welcomed.
Stu
Nt
nt.
moray james
I suspect you are better suited to bird watching.
well actually Geoff I saw you as the guy who was trying to provide the useful information. Sorry I suppose I should have said something but it was very late. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
Have some coffee and try again, maybe then you will be able figure out the correct subject.
Good luck, Rick
Nt
"The sound of the glass plane in the door exhibited a change using the thump test ( two sheets 2 1/2 feet square)." Says Stu.
Let's see, parenthetical statements without explicit subjects must rely on is the most recent subject or contextual clues and I doubt that those were the dimensions of the 'thump test'.
Glad I could help you out...
R.
Nt
Thanks for the report Stu. Should be fun to play with...
Rick
..."I used two sheets 2 1/2 feet square"
That is precious.
Edits: 02/17/13
Please locate anywhere, for any price, blue painter's tape availability in sheets 2 1/2 feet square. You don't even know how to quote properly: a parenthesis means the words are directly taken from the source: your supposed quote, is most definitely not.
LOL !
The house was built almost thirty years ago and the windows are quite run of the mill. I did not do a before and after "thump" test.
ET
Ah, our old friend, the knuckle test. Favorite tool of inquisitive audiophiles everywhere. Hmmm, let's see, a 1X1/2 inch copper foil acts as a damper on a large glass window? Interesting theory....well, It's not a terrible guess, I suppose, I mean folks have long suspected that the much smaller 3/4X1/8 inch Silver Rainbow Foil from PWB acts as a damper when attached to a CD. To continue along that line of inquiry: So, if they aren't dampers then what the heck are they, resonators?:-)
Edits: 02/16/13
"So, if they aren't dampers then what the heck are they, resonators?"
How would I know, it's your posting! I was just curious. I take it you don't know either and that's cool by me. I'm willing to try things just on a lark so I will, especially since I have some Cu and Al tape left over from doing (shudder) EMC work.
Rick
"I'm willing to try things just on a lark so I will"
Yeah, right.
"Sometimes I will, then again I think I won't
Sometimes I will, then again I think I won't
Sometimes I do, then again I think I don't"
~ Chuck Berry
I have begun Larking!
So far so good.
Even if this really works out I'm not completely confident that other household members will appreciate the one on the TV screen however... But I do appreciate you posting it as I have several unavoidable glass surfaces in bad locations so any improvement would be welcome.
Rick
Actually, I only specify windows.
the Feng Shui
gesundheit!
Works using the same technology as the Anti-Alien Heavy Duty Aluminum foil hat correct ? :^)
.
As you'll see in the link Pixel added simply put one inch by half an inch pieces of adhesive backed copper foil tape on any window in the listening room. I did a total of thirteen panes of which four were actually the large size 4' X 8' sliding glass doors. I ran out of tape and ordered more as I have some mirrors in the room too.
ET
NT
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