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In Reply to: RE: Wrap tweaks posted by unclestu on February 07, 2013 at 21:20:29
...obvious to even the most casual observer that both the Highwire and Shun Mook cable wraps address electromagnetic reflections in the cable and both Highwire and Shun Mook say that's how they operate. Whereas, the Reef Knot (obviously) does not address these reflections, but operates some other, more mysterious way.High Wire and Shun Mook cable wraps must be used on active (i.e., connected, cables in the system to have an effect, whereas the Reef Knot - since it doesn't affect the signal in the cables or anywhere in the system - can be used on *inactive* - unconnected - audio cables or non-audio electrical cords. Hel-loo!! In fact, the Reef Knot is unrelated to Highwire or Shun Mook cable wraps' operation.
The fact that the Reef Knot appears on the PWB web site should have been your first clue. You might have dozed off and missed this part of the discussion there:
"As I have mentioned before, Peter has given remarkable demonstrations using Reef knots on completely unrelated components such as the AC power cable of a vacuum cleaner, stored in a cupboard or the AC power cables of PASSIVE Quad Electrostatic speakers, just standing in a passage way, outside the listening room."
Edits: 02/08/13 02/08/13 02/08/13Follow Ups:
again.....First you give no credit to PWB, then you launch off equating Feng Shui with David Bohm.
The fact that the twist obviously obeys the basic physics rule of the right hand should be the first clue to anyone claiming to be a physicist and a rocket scientist. It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion ( same as using a Granny knot).
The fact is these tweaks are variations on a theme.
Trees got in the way of your forest?
IME, I'm a bonafide fan of Highwire Audio Power Wrap and All Clear devices based on direct experience and would protest against any accusation of the design concept as cable voodoo. On the other hand, I'm concerned to say the entire notion of some sort of nonlocal quantum physics being involved in an audiophile tweak of which folk's can tap into as "the source" in some manner is disturbing.
I went through an earnest study of metaphysics during a younger stage in life, and as a consequence learned that one can come to believe in things that can only make sense in the context of what one hopes to believe. Mysteries of the audible phenomena of wires and cables are a different animal, but some naysayers have accused such things as being a similar delusion. However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences. Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room.
Forgive me if I missed something that I might actually be able to wrap my audiophile head around.
just my 2 cents
accusing me of believing in a voodoo explanation for the tweak! As the photos show, I actually own some Power wrap myself, and can duplicate its effect. I actually modify the High wire approach and use thun mumetal strips wrapped around a cord covered with copper tape to unify the electrical and magnetic induction. I then ground the receiving end at the component it is connected to. This works extremely well although it makes for a bit more hum bug as you have another cable end floating around.This EMI induction even works for RF as I have used similar approaches using unconnected wire to shield sensitive components, phono sections in particular ( I live in an extremely high RF area). The unconnected wire acts as an antenna and thus can receive RF, and thus "wick" away unwanted RF. Of course such an explanation is disputed by Geoff who claims I have RF on the mind.....LOL!
In the case of Geoff, he forgets that one of the principle tenets of Feng Shui is to orient the sleeping body North-South. Why? To align the body with the Earth's magnetic field as the Chinese were the first to discover the compass. This is a far cry from the mysticism he is claiming, although some of Feng Shui is superstition (front doors should not be in direct line with the rear door because good luck will take the easy way out). The Chinese philosophies David Boehm was referring to in his writings were more of the Shang period Oracle Bones NOT Feng Shui.
I believe that wires and such make a noticeable difference, too, but I also believe an understanding of the nature of the effects is at hand.
YMMV, as is obvious
Stu
Edits: 02/09/13
I have no issue with your end of the discussion, Stu. There's nothing voodoo about the Power Wrap, nor your own experiments of the kind. It's the nonlocal quantum physics notion in this thread that makes me queasy.
Cheers, Duster
Duster replied :-
> > > "Mysteries of the audible phenomena of wires and cables are a different animal, but some naysayers have accused such things as being a similar delusion. However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences. Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room." < < <
Let me reply to the different points raised in your reply.
> > > "However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences." < < <
That is problem No 1, i.e when some people have themselves NOT had direct experience of something and therefore do not allow (or dismiss) other people's honest evaluations of THEIR experiences.
> > > "Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room." < < <
But it ACTUALLY happened (and can happen in the present tense), Duster.
For example. During the mid 1980s, Hi Fi retailers who stocked Quad Electrostatic speakers, when those speakers were not required for demonstration purposes they were usually kept in the corridor, outside the demonstration room. On numerous occasions, in different retailers and at different times, it was demonstrated that one could gain an improvement in the sound taking place in the actual listening room if a Reef knot was tied in the AC power cords (just dangling passively) of the Quad Electrostatic speakers stored outside.
Ditto tying a Reef knot in the AC power cord of a vacuum cleaner stored (passively) in a cupboard along the same corridor !!!!!
Problem No 2 occurs when an identical Reef Knot can be made in the pull cord of a curtain or venetian blind, in the listening room, and a similar improvement in the sound can be gained.
When such a thing happens, an explanation has to be found (or merely suggested) for what happens and unclestu's EMI or RF explanation will just NOT fit everything which can affect the 'sound' - much as he wishes it would. That is why I challenge him so many times on his explanations. I DO NOT challenge him on his observations - I fully appreciate that he hears the changes in the sound that he claims to hear - I do not challenge his experiences - we have heard similar changes but our own experiences have forced us to look in different directions to explain the same experiences, when EMI and RF explanations just do not fit what happens.
Unclestu says :-
> > > "The fact that the twist obviously obeys the basic physics rule of the right hand should be the first clue to anyone claiming to be a physicist and a rocket scientist. It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion ( same as using a Granny knot).
The fact is these tweaks are variations on a theme." < < <
Certain 'twists' MAY follow the rule of the right hand and YES, these particular tweaks may be variations on a theme but the theme is that they are ALL affecting the environment in which we (human beings) are trying to listen to the complexities of music and not necessarily 'affecting' how EMI or RF influences the signal going through the audio equipment or influencies the acoustic air pressure waves and vibrations.
Sometimes, yes, EMI and RF can influence the actual audio signal - my knowledge of audio is sufficient to know that much - but not EVERY single time the 'sound' change is experienced. And, my knowledge is also sufficient to know when they can't !!!! And, it is those other times which have to be explained.
Part of one of unclestu's replies :-
> > > "The unconnected wire acts as an antenna and thus can receive RF, and thus "wick" away unwanted RF." < < <
This is a constant theme of Unclestu's !!! Extending also to cover such as the effect on the sound which certain crystals in the listening room have !! "Wicked" away from what ? The audio signal ?
Again to quote unclestu :-
> > > "It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion" < < <
It's own peculiar distortion on what ???
Part of your reply, Duster.
> > > "Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind," < < <
I am encouraged to read that.
Regards,
May Belt,
Manufacturer.
I specifically stated that I live in a very high RF area. The RF used to be so high that many phono sections would audibly pick up radio and TV stations. Adding standard "fixes" like ferrite beads works but sonically impairs the signal. Several tweaks work extremely well.
One was to place a simple interconnect wound carefully on top of the phono section. It did not have to be connected to anything and it would significantly reduce the RFI received. Actually, grounding the cable increased its efficiency. Diameter of the winding was quite crucial.
Second was to make an "umbrella" frame: a radially mounted ensemble of wires of various lengths ( best if 1/4 wavelength of the offending broadcast). Placed over the phono section it absorbed large amounts of the RFI and made listening to the phono section pleasant.
I have pointed out that in the modern word, RF is increasingly an issue. Cell phones, Wi Fi, Ipads, Ipods, etc. all generate RFI. First generation CD players (Philips/Magnavox) with their plastic chassis' wrecked havoc on TV reception because their RF emmision was so high, so high that the FCC MANDATED metal chassis and placed restrictions on RF emmisions ( one reason why so many early CD players only had optical digital outputs).
That being said, I do not attribute everything which ails audio to RF. Geoff seems to think I do, but then he can scarcely understand the written word (backfire effect). Crystals, I attribute to the piezo effect. It can include RF but EMI covers a far broader range and if you actually tried my application notes (don't criticize others if you don't practice what you preach), you would note that I place my crystals in areas of intense EMI concentrations: transformers, motor assemblies, voice coil assemblies, and the like. Crystals are hardly working on RFI in those applications.
Also be aware that EMI fields extend over very broad distances: they may weaken in intensity, however. Experimental evidence by Alain Aspect proves this correlation, but apparently neither you nor Geoff have explored the experimental correlation with events in the real world.
Congratulations, you earned it.
Smoother for harsh vibration !
tweaker
That's rather cruel and unwarranted, don't you think, Megadeath?
Cruel !!!?
just a small joke, not jokefight !
Your sense of humor remind me our AC line condition . :-)
tweaker
Sorry for any misunderstanding. My father always said I should have been a comedian.:-)
Edits: 02/22/13
Alain Aspect's famous experiment actually has nothing to do with RFI or EMI and (because it does not) is neither evidence nor proof of any of your wild claims regarding crystals and RFI/EMI, or magnets and RFI/EMI for that matter. You know, dropping names as much as you do is not really a very good game plan if you can't grasp their ideas.What Alain Aspect's experiment actually demonstrated was that no matter how far apart two elementary particles, such as electrons - which at one time were intimately connected - eventually become, they are still in "communication" with each other - in terms of spin, direction or some other measurable property of the particles. Even if the two particles are light years apart! This was the proof of the Theory of non-locality, a concept in quantum mechanics, a concept closely related to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the subject of the famous EPR paper. It has nothing to do with how RFI or EMI diminishes over distance as you, for some bizarre and unfathomable reason, gather.
Paul Davies summarised the result of that experiment as follows:
"The Universe is not a collection of objects, but is an inseparable web of vibrating patterns in which no one component has reality independently from the entirety. Included in the entirety is the observer."
Anyway, maybe you'll have better luck next time, Grasshopper.
Edits: 02/21/13 02/21/13 02/21/13 02/21/13
a granny knot work?
The question answers itself, once one understands the two knots and takes into account that a second reef knot cancels the first.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"The quantum non-local physics notion of this thread makes me queasy."Well, it appears the Reef Knot may have broken another rule. Is anyone keeping count? What rule does it break when used on a Venetian Blind cord? One need not look too far for examples of quantum non-local physics in audio, let me direct you to Rainbow Foil, The Red X Pen, the Teleportation Tweak and the Clever Little Clock. Oh, and the Photos in the Freezer Tweak.
"People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little." - PT Barnum
Edits: 02/09/13 02/09/13
tying knots in my Venetian blind cords do NOT work except when it pulls the blinds away from the window. Tying knots in various pieces of rope in my sound room doesn't work either.Neither does the photo in the freezer tweak. As I pointed out in the past, lots of people in the NE right now are enduring several feet of snowfall. If they have photos in storage lockers or garages, and such, their stereo systems ought to be sounding magnificent, shouldn't they? People dwelling in Alaska dn the Canadian North should also have superb sounding systems too....
Seems like your favorite Backfire effect is working here.
Edits: 02/09/13 02/09/13 02/09/13
If you can't hear the Photos in the Freezer Tweak either you can't hear as well as you think you can or there's something dreadfully wrong with your system OR you don't know how to do the Photos in the Freezer Tweak properly. There's always All of the Above.This morning I attached a Reef Knot Device to most of the electrical cords and other cords in the living room and kitchen, which contain NO audio equipment. I attached a reef knot to the microwave oven cord, the refrigerator cord, some floor lamp cords and various cables for the TV and digital box. I just this minute listened to a CD that I had listened to the other day. The dynamic range of the CD is about double, and the sound much more intricate, after putting Reef Knots in the living room and kitchen. Sorry to hear you struck out with the photos/freezer thing and the reef knot thing. C'est la vie. :-)
To answer your question regarding the photos in the freezer tweak, and random photos in random locations, it would be extremely beneficial to know what the photos in the freezer tweak actually entails before making any assumptions about garages, lockers, snowstorms, etc., no?
My mojo is working, your Backfire Effect is in full bloom.
Edits: 02/09/13 02/09/13 02/09/13
you can offer no explanation. In fact, prior you had mentioned that NASA should send photos up into space in a refrigerator. No explanation was forthcoming when it was pointed out that the average temperature in space outside the suns rays was a few dsegrees above absolute zero. IIRC you claimed the enclosure was important: but then you didn't specify the zipock bag or the non air tight refrigerator door.
I bguess we all have to wander and guess at the actual means necessary sionce you never define the necessary needs for the tweak. Sure gives you a means to bag out when trials are contradictory to your perceptions.
Keep on running and dodging... All the readers have already caught on to your modus operandi.
"you can offer no explanation."Do you mean no explanation of the Reef Knot? If so, that's true, I offer no explanation. Get over it.
"In fact, prior you had mentioned that NASA should send photos up into space in a refrigerator. No explanation was forthcoming when it was pointed out that the average temperature in space outside the suns rays was a few dsegrees above absolute zero."
What good would it do to explain the freezer in space? I have already explained it to you many times, and each time you don't get it. If you're trying to convince me that you are dense you're doing an excellent job. There comes a time to fish or cut bait. Five years is long enough. :-)
"IIRC you claimed the enclosure was important: but then you didn't specify the zipock bag or the non air tight refrigerator door."
In your particular case, you should never start a sentence with IIRC. :-) This is an excellent example of "can't see the forest for the trees." The reason why I suggested NASA take some photos out in space was that it would be an easy way to measure the speed of the effect. It's a thought experiment. Now do you get it?
"I bguess we all have to wander and guess at the actual means necessary sionce you never define the necessary needs for the tweak. Sure gives you a means to bag out when trials are contradictory to your perceptions."
The details of the photos in the freezer tweak have been provided many times over on Iso. Must be one of those IIRC things.
Edits: 02/10/13 02/10/13
"The dynamic range of the CD is about double"
That would be easy to measure.
Show me the measurements.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I can hear 3 dB of dynamic range. Can't you?
"If you can't hear the Photos in the Freezer Tweak either you can't hear as well as you think..."
Not to be too picky about words, but I don't believe this tweak is a matter of "hearing". If you were to substitute "perception" then I would be good to go.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
> > > "Not to be too picky about words, but I don't believe this tweak is a matter of "hearing". If you were to substitute "perception" then I would be good to go." < < <
Can I introduce an all encompassing descriptive sentence instead ?:-
"The experience of resolving more of the musical information".
Because this is what most people are describing after trying various different and unusual 'tweaks'.
The word 'hearing' implies hearing the ACTUAL musical information changing whereas the word 'perception' (in some people) implies a 'feeling', an 'impression' that the music has changed.
I am of the opinion that with most people's experiences with the majority of the 'tweaks' they try, it IS the actual musical information which is being better resolved.
On Propeller Head Plaza section I posed the following question to awe-d-o-file:-
> > > "Would the people who describe hearing an improvement in their sound after fitting such as the ground loops describe the improvement as "resolving more of the musical information" ?" < < <
To which awe-d-o-file replied.
> > > "The last sentence you wrote in your post "covers" what many might say word for word or in other ways regarding the implementation of that particular tweak or other tweaks that make an improvement." < < <
That reply seems to confirm that the expression "resolving more of the musical information" might encompass most people's listening experiences after trying different 'tweaks'. As soon as the descriptive word 'perception' is used, people are wont to come in immediately with the retort "Oh, it's auto-suggestion at work, or the placebo effect, or bias, or imagination, or audio faithhealing, or effective marketing etc."
Regards,
May Belt,
Manufacturer.
While I appreciate the terminology "resolving musical information" this is also a highly ambiguous phrase. My late wife was a musician and to her all she cared about was forming an impression in her mind of what the musicians were thinking while they were performing, plus of course the notes. She could memorize a classical piece from hearing a recording once or twice, but normally obtained this musical information from reading and memorizing Braille music. She was pretty useless at commenting on quality of stereo playback, so after a frustrating afternoon auditioning amplifiers I never asked her to do this again. Other people consider hearing various subtle details of the musical performance, such as two guitars doubling a part, to be "resolving musical information".
The problem with all of these definitions is that information (and indeed all knowledge of this mundane world) is relative. After hearing some piece of information, such as that doubled guitar part, on a good system then it may be obvious on a cheap boom box. This is one of the problems with some blind testing protocols, and helps account for "everything sounding the same" once the testing begins. Other aspects involve much more subtle operation of the mind, e.g. how perception may not reach the level of conscious perception, but is still present and can be observed by certain unconscious behavior or by PET brain scans.
It is also very easy for a system to "resolve" non-musical information and fool people into believing that there has been a positive change for the better. (The classic example is boosting the treble and revealing things going on in the recording, but at the expense of early listening fatigue. This effect is common on systems set up by people who don't listen to acoustic recordings and who don't have any idea of what acoustic instruments sound like in real concert venues.)
I'm not sure there can be good, consistent understanding of definitions of these terms, for these and other reasons.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I dunno, kind of a silly semantics argument. The words Hearing and Perception are interchangeable in my book. Unless you're suggesting that "it's all in your mind," - in which case I certainly understand your hesitancy. Lol
"I just this minute listened to a CD that I had listened to the other day. The dynamic range of the CD is about double, and the sound much more intricate, after putting Reef Knots in the living room and kitchen."
I'm now feeling even more queasy.
That is a jaw-dropping extraordinary claim which in no manner can be validated as a universal experience, even by extraordinary anecdotal evidence shared by credible reporters.
Eccentric audiophiles with esoteric ideas is one thing (I am amongst them), but it's quite another level to advocate extra-terrestrial reports with such a straight face. Face to face in the 3D world might be a daunting task.
Cheers, Duster
Hell, I was being conservative. The sound is more coherent, more open, more realistic, with better rhythm, better pitch, faster sounding and has more information and impact in the bass and upper bass. The midrange and treble are rich but immaculate.
Edits: 02/09/13 02/09/13
nt
Nt
Stu, I am pretty sure that memory loss thing you have going is kicking in again. May Belt posted on the subject of Reef Knots here just last month. My suggestion - add more fish to your diet. By the way, how many laws of physics do you believe the Reef Knot disobeys, you know, what with the non-audio related applications and the passive cord applications?May Belt wrote,
Rick m,
It is that Granny knots don't work. It HAS to be a Reef Knot !! And, as Geoff points out, you can make a Reef Knot in passive (unused) cables, anywhere in the listening room, and have a very effective improvement in the sound.
The technique of tying Reef Knots in cables was first demonstrated in the UK (and written about in Hi Fi Answers audio magazine) some 20 years ago.
Regards,
May Belt.
Manufacturer
Edits: 02/08/13 02/08/13
Atleast we know where you stand.
AS far as the reef knots are concerned, NO laws or rules of physics are broken that I can see.
Maybe your feng shui knowledge can further elucidate your thoughts.
You wrote,
"AS far as the reef knots are concerned, NO laws or rules of physics are broken that I can see."
You better look a little more closely.
You wrote,
"Maybe your feng shui knowledge can further elucidate your thoughts."
I have a queasy feeling you're going to tell me you're a Feng Shui Master. Questions - is Feng Shui knowledge inherited? Are Americans inherently poor at grasping Feng Shui? I have a queasy feeling you think Chi is RFI.
Your flights of fancy are rather unbelievable, about on par with your reading comprehension.Incidentally, I am an American, but right now I am pretty much ashamed at your example of stereotypical bigotry. With a country like China with over 5000 years of history, you equate everything Chinese with feng shui? If you had even read an inkling about David Bohm you would know that his interest was NOT feng shui. In addition, you simply do not understand, nor does it seem that you have made even the slightest attempt to understand such concepts of Chi or Ki in Japanese.
Edits: 02/09/13
Stu, you wrote,"Incidentally, I am an American, but right now I am pretty much ashamed at your example of stereotypical bigotry. With a country like China with over 5000 years of history, you equate everything Chinese with feng shui?
I never suggested any such thing. Maybe you're just over-reacting, who the hell knows. Not sure we're on the same page. :-)
"If you had even read an inkling about David Bohm you would know that his interest was NOT feng shui."
Never said it was. As ocassionally happens in these discussions you're just having trouble following a particular line of logic. Moving right along...
"In addition, you simply do not understand, nor does it seem that you have made even the slightest attempt to understand such concepts of Chi or Ki in Japanese."
I am starting to get the distinct impression you really do think that feng shui is something difficult and mysterious from the East that cannot be penetrated by Westerners. So I was right! Lol
Edits: 02/09/13 02/09/13
You wrote,
"Your flights of fancy are rather unbelievable, about on par with your reading comprehension."
How so? You're the one that sees RFI behind every bush.
of backfire effect !
LOL !
Give Stu back his bullets. He's fresh out of ammo.
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