 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
67.171.195.116
nt
Follow Ups:
just about got out of headphone listening cuz all the amps ( I could afford) had opamps in the signal path. Got my first tube headphone amp and never looked back.
Even then, the LP is mastered with 100's of op-amps. Anything digital will 99.9% of the time contain opamps.
___
Long Live Dr.Gizmo
The great RCA's, Mercurys and Deccas mastered in the 50's and 60's were mastered with pure tube chains. Not an op-amp in site. After all the transister hadn't been invented yet. When I play one of these recordings on my all tube system there is not a single op-amp in the chain. When I listen toCD's there are op-amps in my Sony 5400es and it sounds excellent.
Alan
I was under the impression many mixing consoles have discrete potted opamps like API2520 etc.
Untill very recently most mixing consols used NE5532 or NE5534 opamps. I doubt any used the modules you have suggested the cost would be far to high given the number required.
Sure some do, but see the link.
nt
Totaly none and also no transistor
Edits: 01/30/11
When I was looking to upgrade the sound of the Infinity-supplied equalizer that goes with my RSIIb speakers, I ended up clipping out the single-ended MOSFET output buffer stage (fed by a MOSFET CCS) and building an opamp output stage using OPA827 opamps, and the result was excellent! I was able to eliminate the output coupling caps entirely due to the low DC offset of the 827, and the unit is much, much more transparent with the opamps than it was stock. In this case at least, the opamps were the superior-sounding technology.
It has been spoken: Tubes are better than transistors which are better than analog integrated circuits which are better than digital anything. Real audiophiles have sworn such an oath on a stack of Lp's, the ultimate medium.
How dare you try and challenge my faith with your logic?
Rick
Plenty to do the job superbly and not one unreliable, environmentally brown, technologically obsolete thermionic device!
Perfect sound forever...
Rick
Some of my BEST vinyl records, such as Sheffield direct discs, have NO IC's at all in the entire path.
That is WHY they sound so good. AND I don't have any IC's in the reproduce path, either.
Not important, really. I can't imagine there are that many people out there who saved those LPs from an ugly grave. Great sounding LPs and those kids(Dare I?) are phenomenal.
******************************
Heck if I know! I ain't no genius.
20 - 30 years the selection of good sounding opamps was slim. Today there are plenty of opamps that are clean, dynamic, and linear.
I USED to think good sound was not possible with opamps/chip amps/ digital/solid state/IC's. Today I do not feel any of that is a limiting factor.
George
....sounds as if Curl disagrees.
Personally, I have spent the last 2 years trying to find the best IC op amps for audio service. There are many to select from, but few that really fill the bill, compared to a modest discrete op amp. I wish this were not so, but think of the problems in IC design: Need for low cost, low current consumption, compatible with existing design processes i.e. no comp diff. jfet inputs, or many other exotic topologies.
Like with some automobiles, serious attempts are made to meet certain specifications, but does the American auto really perform with the same comfort and control as a good European one? If not, why? It is the same problem with IC's vs discrete op amps.
Edits: 02/04/11
A SSM2019 is hard to beat.
Dedicated parts are the bright side of the coin.
Rick
"Need for low cost, low current consumption..."
You are spot on there. Virtually every design is now battery powered and low voltage and current operation are musts so the rest of the parameters are optimized as well as can be within those constraints. Even more daunting are designs that require that the analog functions to be implemented on a digital die without additional fab steps.
The glory of the 'Gadget' age...
Rick
Unfortunately, this does NOT help to make the HIGHEST QUALITY audio reproduction. Just 'good enough'. It is like trying to get really high gas milage and at the same time, lots of torque, for smooth operation or pulling a trailer.
"Unfortunately, this does NOT help to make the HIGHEST QUALITY audio reproduction. Just 'good enough'."
That seems to be the way of it. Today's consumers, i.e. the kids spending their parents money, know their ABC's: Acceptance (by their peers), Bling and Coolness. Sadly even folks old enough to know better want the same things, after all they don't want to appear 'over the hill'. And that means portable, flashy and flexible rather than profound.
On the other hand you've been in this game quite a spell, just when was there a golden age of parts for audio applications? Hasn't it always been largely a matter of doing the best you can with what's out there? There seems to be a pretty good selection of passives currently, perhaps this a metallic age of some color for them? On top of that most of the development beyond computers is targeted at switchers and the same technology being developed for them makes class D amplifiers better.
Of course we are becoming obsolete also (I'm there) and that's always a factor. When I started out in the late '60s there were two things helping to drive openings in the electronics industry, firstly it was still mostly domestic and secondly a whole slew of guys decided to throw in the towel as transistors came to the fore. They hated them with a passion, they liked tubes, understood tubes, had decades of experience with tube designs and damned if they were going to soldier on if forced to use distasteful technology. And a mini version of that happened with IC's, there was a lot of concern in the mid 70's that the only place circuit design would be done was at the semiconductor outfits. That passed quickly though and without nearly as much loss and we became more system oriented. And then came digital and mircocontrollers and and and here we are today coming to grips with class D amplifiers while digital speakers are perhaps being perfected. At some point, the thrill is gone...
On the other hand, I'm just amazed at the range of stuff still being used, sold and designed on a limited basis. About the only technology I don't currently see represented is Mag. Amps. and I may be overlooking them!
Regards, Rick
John, mostly I was just responding to a humorous question. At least I hope it was intended to be humorous. I don't even KNOW (or care) how many I have, one for sure in the preamp there may be some in the DAC.
I've got quite a few of the Sheffield labs records and they surely do sound good. But I reckon there are plenty of factors involved in that besides op-amps. And as you well know back in the day op-amps were made out of tubes and then transistors, and then integrated ones which have varied all over the map in technology, implementation and performance over the last half-century. Stir in the knowledge, skills and bend of the designer and the question is beyond meaningless, it's misleading. Perhaps it's corollary is to ask how many parts are on the BOM?
Regards, Rick
It is important to NOTE that the op amp question comes up to denigrate the very idea of better quality high fidelity. (lots of op amps limits the sound potential, therefore why try?)
It is a common rationalization, much like: Why make an auto that goes over 80mph in the USA? Well?
"Why make an auto that goes over 80mph in the USA? Well?"
Hmmm, margin I suppose. Probably if my car had a governor that cut off at 80MPH I wouldn't notice (at my age). On the other hand, if it couldn't go any faster than 80 due to flat-plate area and horsepower, I'd notice big-time.
Sort of like power amps, on my study system I've measured the peak voltage at my typical listening levels and normalized to 8 ohms it comes out 1W! 1W peak! So I've got good headroom with my 35W receiver yet I don't feel like I'm wasting anything somehow...
Of course once signals are damaged by, well any circuit or component thereof that's now doing well, that's it. And application is everything. I know 5534's were supposedly used in some popular mixers and ruined a bazillion recordings so they are 'BAD'. On the other hand I was using them at the same time for a narrow bandwidth, low noise preamp application and they had best NF going and provided sterling performance. They were GOOD! Damn idiosyncratic parts anyway...
Rick
not true
What is not true? Where are the IC's?
The good sound of direct disc is by omitting multi-track tape recorder, and tape copies, not by omitting opamps.
Sheffield leased my 30ips analog master recorder to record the Moscow Symphony. It has ALL DISCRETE OP AMPS, designed by me, and they worked out pretty well for that recording.
Always blowing your own trumpet. :(
...you should feel fortunate and thankful that a guy as talented, knowledgeable, who is legendary and has accomplished so much in this industry gave you the time of day.
Yet you're sarcastic and condescending.
What superior accomplishments do you have to tell us about?
I am at one with your post.
Regards,
Geoff
Why not? Better a 'has been' than a 'never was'. ;-)
I should elaborate on this topic. Almost ALL IC's are op amps, but not ALL OP AMPS are IC's. An IDEAL OP AMP is a perfectly good audio amplification device. The problem is that there is NO SUCH THING as an IDEAL OP AMP. However, there are very good discrete approximations to an IDEAL OP AMP that is pretty darn good, and there are other designs that are NOT OP AMPS at all but just audio gain stages.
To continue, there are many IC OP AMPS, in fact it is why the OP AMP concept is popular and in general conversation, OP AMPS are IC's, almost always.
When someone says that there are many op amps in the chain, they almost always mean IC op amps. This is why so much music sounds so poorly, and why many people who really care, try to use tubes or discrete op amps, to get better sound quality.
NT
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
