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In Reply to: RE: Alan Maher crystals inside AC plug bodies. posted by LarBo on November 23, 2010 at 10:53:41
I don't recall where I saw it, but he said putting the crystals inside the plug bodies would work, but not as well as placing a packaged filter outside the plug.
This makes sense, as the electric fields from RF noise extend in space around the plugs and cords. The crystals close to the conductors, as they would be inside the plugs, would not be exposed to much of the field lines.
Follow Ups:
"The crystals close to the conductors, as they would be inside the plugs, would not be exposed to much of the field lines. "
Errr, that's just backward I'm afraid. Their density decreases rapidly with distance. Perhaps it's a matter of material quantity and/or saturation.
Rick
You are correct for normal-mode noise. However, the crystals seem to be most useful in reducing common-mode noise. They would be more effective in the space outside the plug rather than closer to the conductors, unless you can achieve a uniform distribution of absorbing material within the plug.
Edits: 11/27/10
"unless you can achieve a uniform distribution of absorbing material within the plug. "
I think I'm with you. The problem in the plug is that the material may not fully surround the wires which is what you need to have a high effective perm for common mode signals. At least that's the way I'd think of it for ferrites. I don't know how to think of it in terms of fields interacting with damped piezoelectric elements, it's too foreign a notion for my feeble brain.
Do you know of anyone that has actually measured their insertion loss over frequency? I suppose that would be a reasonable characterization...
Rick
I personally find the crystals to work extremely well inside of power plugs, when placed in the center of the three conductors. Outside of the cable requires a lot of crystals because most lines of a power cord are twisted and you need, as you point out, a lot of coverage to affect each of the lines.
What bugs the hell for me is the fact that most cables employ a twist like a left handed thread. In fabricating power cables from scratch, I find and a right handed thread twist imparts a much "faster" sounding cable, indicating that there is a hell of a lot of inductances going on.
Stu
Hi Stu!
"most cables employ a twist like a left handed thread. In fabricating power cables from scratch, I find and a right handed thread twist imparts a much "faster" sounding cable, indicating that there is a hell of a lot of inductances going on."
Hmmm, actually most of my powercords are flat. (Perhaps that's why I get a smooth, flat response?) I've never paid any attention to how cords are twisted, I'll eyeball them next time I'm in the hardware store. Do you think it affects their mutual inductance?
Putting the crystal in the center would certainly get it in the high field region. Lot of interesting things to look into and contemplate in this hobby...
You know what Stu? While I used the toroid you sent me to good advantage, I still have the crystals and blu-tack in my drawer. And I just went downstairs and dug them out! I'll play with them and see what I can hear and/or measure. The weatherman says this is going to be an excellent week for inside projects so all is good.
Well... except maybe for the heatpump which quit pumping yesterday. But surely, in the name of safety, I shouldn't work on it in the rain!
Regards, Rick the rationalizer
I use the toroid centered on the CD spin motor. Since the field is toroidally shaped the EMF field will drop straight down the center of the toroid and that's where the use of the crystal is very obvious.
And yes I do believe the twist affects the inductance. I used the braided Kimber speaker cable to test this out, using some cable with neutral colors ( you know my position on black wires). depending on which leg you select for the positive you can get either a left or right hand twist in the braid. The left hand twist as positive always gives a more open and "faster" sounding hookup, although for some reason it is normally the black that has the preferred twist.
This was rammed home as a Kimber dealer, when I got shipped some cable with the twists reversed. A customer came in who needed one side longer, so I cut off the length of the new spool and then he complained that his speakers no longer sounded balanced. When he returned both cables, a closer examination revealed that the twists had been reversed. I complained to Kimber and they have been very careful to standardize the braid ever since.
I also got a mil surplus power cord made of teflon insulated wire, interestingly. It was a relatively small gauge but did sound excellent, and while I have no doubt the teflon was a contributor, I did notice the twist was reversed to most.
Also in regards to power cords check out the Dale website (www.daletech.com). They market, for medical use, a low leakage power cord, something I have never seen addressed by any audiophile company. Their Euro color coded low leakage cables do sound quite decent, and are very quiet. The only difference I can see is that they add additional insulation between each conductive strand. ( I may have posted this to you already).
Stu
OK two questions:
1) If I want to max impact of crystals in a torroid, would I put them in a tube down the center?
2) How do I DIY a left hand twist? And from which end? I know this one must be ridiculously obvious, but I'm feeling sluggish today...
Thanks, Uncle!
Left hand twist is the direction of the threads on a normal screw. When a right hander twists wire, he normally twists in a clockwise rotation,That sounds a tad slower in my experimentation than if you twist in a counterclockwise rotation.
As for the crystals in a toroid I just center them within the toroid. Although if you do have those crystals drilled for jewelry you could run a string across the toroid and then center them. Remember the picture I posted of the crystals centered in front of a speaker?
Stu
Unclestu, I do understand about the "left hand twist" thing, though somehow I thought we had right hand screws in the US. See how easy it is to get those confused.
So how you view the spiral might differ depending upon which end of the cable you look from. Here's an easier question: I use my drill to do the twist on power cords clamping the receiving end and drilling from the source end; do I do it in forward or reverse to get the left hand twist?
Thanks and sorry for sounding so dense. Today ain't my day!
I think you're screwed both ways.
The threads are the same from either end. If you turn the screw CW it goes in (away from you). If you turn it around it still does, you turn it CW and it goes away from you.
I too thought that meant they were RH threads.
PS: In the name of science I went to the garage and tried it with a 1/4" bolt and nut just as a reality check this close to bedtime..
If you use a drill running normally you get a thread opposite to a standard bolt, whatever it's called. Just take your desklamp's zipcord and give it a couple twists by hand and you'll see..
Rick
This should be simple in principle, but I don't know of anyone with the equipment and the motivation.
Here is a quote from Alan Maher on the subject of crystal placement."Placing the CBF crystal inside the AC shell offers a 15% to 20% improvement in sound quality compared to attaching the CBF case to the outside of the shell." (On 03-22-2010, 05:21 AM at Audio Aficionado forum.)
In my experiences I have always noticed a bigger sonic improvement putting Alan Maher's crystals inside my power cord connectors.
I think the 15% to 20% is very conservative.
Edits: 11/23/10
One wonders if that means the crystals don't actually operate on EMI/RFI... Hmmmmm
geoffkait, do you have more specific thoughts on crystals working on something besides RF/EMI? I have no technical background, but have always considered crystals to work on the magnetic field genereated by the electric current. Something along the lines of the crystaline structure aligning the magnetic field in a way to reduce interference. In terms of the hematite that I prefer, unclestu mentioned that magnets allow the signal to pass through the magnetic field more quickly, if I understood him correctly. I can see how less interference could equate to smoother/faster passage.
kendo
the piezo effect of some crystal with the magnetic effect of hematite. Hold a magnet to hematite and it will pick it up with no problem at all (I was playing around with a piece of bloodstone/hematite last night) The bloodstone was not magnetic but the hematite certainly was. I do not believe the hematite is a magnet itself, but merely magnetically conductive.
You experimentation shows one very neglected fact in the Audio industry: the effect of the magnetic fields being generated or induced. I've never used hematite, preferring to use mu metal or iron/steel shim stock instead.
In fact I began wrapping my connectors ( binding posts as well as RCA plugs) with a piece of mu metal foil. This gives a noticeable boost in clarity.
RCA's in general develop a lot of inductance in the design of the negative contact surface. In making the full circle around the positive conductor, I believe inductances are created. The new WBT and the Eichmann ends are interesting in that they limit that loop, probably one additional reason why they sound very good. I've also experimented, early on, with sawing a thin cut to break the 360 degree loop in an RCA connector. It did improve detail and clarity, particularly in the top end, but the RCA's developed a slight problem in holding together mechanically.
Stu
Your experience with mu metal foil matches my experience with hematite beads in the 4mm and 6mm sizes. I noticed better dynamics (umph) with hematite over amythest. Placing the hematite beads at the midpoints of my IC's and speaker cables(both unshielded), as well as at both ends also yielded better transparency and presence.
kendo
One way to look at it is why crystals work when placed in room corners and on the room walls? It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the crystals are acting on RFI/EMI in those applications, eh?
I wasn't aware that crystals worked on walls and room corners. Would you share your knowledge/experience in this area or direct me to a site/post that would be helpful.
kendo
Peizo electric crystals will absorb RFI and EMI no matter where they are. The idea is to control the amount which reaches your gear. As a collector of mineral specimens I had a large quartz cluster I kept in between my speakers. While there I could never get rid of a certain "hardness" I heard in my system, no matter how hard I tried. One day noticing that the cluster was very dusty, I took it outdoors to wash and the hardness in my system simply disappeared. It was obvious that the cluster was absorbing EMI/RFI and re-radiating it back into the room.
Since RFI can be airborne (think of all the TV and radio broadcasts, Wifi transmissions, etc.), it can appear anywhere in your room.
Stu
He who laughs last laughs best.
:-)
Happy to oblige, Kendo...
Man it must be tough being you...you're BS is getting old.
A-
I take that as a compliment from someone who can't spell "your."
~ Happy Turkey Day.
Thanks for the grammatical correction, sometimes my fingers get a little ahead of themselves when I’m typing. Always good to know you’re there to point things out. As I was saying prior your gripes are becoming a little too much, especially as of late, it’s a shame your gripes are not dipping into our profits, I look forward to the friendly competition during the next year.
Take care and Happy Holidays!
Alan Maher
If you don't like my opinions feel free to lump it. Sounds to me like you're the one griping.
Cheers
I use them both inside the plug bodies and behind the plug bodies (strain relief area) around the wire. I also use them along the nodes of the wires.
Those positions pretty much cover all bases.
Had I more patience than gumption, I would have tested the types and placement of different crystals for effect. But hell, if it sounds better, so what? ;=)
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