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In Reply to: RE: Only if you want to believe we know everything about nature's laws. posted by Norm on April 18, 2010 at 15:10:17
Norm let me ask you this:
A co-worker comes to work and tells you that the old addage about a watched pot is true, that he stared at a pot of water and it took way longer for it to boil. He didn't have a timer, didn't boil a pot and not look and then boil a pot and look, nothing like that. What would you do with that information?
I would probably say something like it may have seemed that it took longer only because you were standing there looking at it.
I guess (from your posts) that you would call anybody that didn't agree with him arrogant and full of it.
And btw: I've been posting on these forums for a long time and have never run into anyone with absolutely no information to back their position, nor anyone so quick to call people names and get personal.
Have a nice day, I'm out.
Follow Ups:
I have spent too much time in research methods teaching and in critiquing research to accept the "everyone knows" argument.
I am strongly of the opinion that your attitude is quite unscientific and hurtful of improving our understanding of what can be done to make audio reproduction better. If direction of a fuse seems to matter and is unexplained by what we know, then the charge is to account for it, not to say that those hearing it are delusional.
I'm sorry to rock your boat, but you deserved it.
... is that nobody in this post has done the most basic thing to back their claims or impressions: a blind test.So it's actually your attitude which I find unscientific, and Sebrof's approach the right one.
Science is observation and THEN proof through repeatable experiments. When I listened to the fuse knowing which one it was, I heard a difference.
When I did it in a blind-test, I couldn't hear any difference. At all. Unless somebody does the same experience and comes up with conclusive results showing the opposite, I will keep considering "audiophile" fuses are a waste of time and money.
No I do not believe we know everything about nature's law and as I said, I'm ready to change my mind. But I do find interesting that people who believe in the "sound of fuses" are actually unable or unwilling to back up their claims by the most basic means available to us, a blind test.
Now if you tell me fuses (or even audio in general) are a religion or something, I'll stop insisting on blind tests. But I thought we were talking about science.
JB
Edits: 04/19/10 04/19/10 04/19/10 04/19/10
I like your definition of blind tests rather than the same/different definition used in some psychology research and most double blind tests in audio.
However, what I object to his Sebrof's rejection without any listening that there can be no impact of fuse direction, which personally I know and many of my friends know is not true. His attitude is what is unscientific, namely that observations can be ignored as "we know what is true."
"Hearing" a difference doesn't mean s*** to me. Of course you hear a difference. I heard a difference too before submitting myself to a blind test. You like research? Wine tasters in the Brochet experiment, presented with the same wine in two bottles (one expensive-looking, one cheap-looking), tasted two totally different ones when it was one. WINE EXPERTS!!!!And sure enough, my definition of a blind test is a loose one in this case and I never pretended it was anything else.
The blind test I offer, nevertheless, is really easy to realize (although considering the number of people who've done it, one wouldn't think so). Plus on such a simple issue, there really is no need to over-complicate things.
Test yourself say 10 times, alternating stock fuse and audiophile fuse.
Write down which one is which on a piece of paper. Then see how many times out of ten you get it right.If you make it to 8, then we'll discuss fuse "polarity". If the difference is real, 2 off is already generous.
The truth is, when you look at your little piece of paper, you'll realize you're far off the count... And if you're not, well then I will have learnt something.
JB
PS: on another cynical note, I find it interesting that Hifi Tuning, who's always declared fuses are not directional, suddenly discovered they were! Lol. Come on guys.
Edits: 04/19/10 04/19/10 04/19/10
One of the basic principles of scientific research in hypothesis testing is that your measures have to validly assess the concept to be tested. Other researchers may question the validity of your measure. I have on several occasions participated in double blind tests. Once it was a valid test where we listened to several preamps and did our own rankings. I did not agree with the most commonly highest ranking unit. Afterwards, I borrowed the highest ranking unit for an extended listening. I still did not like it. I have no objection to such blind tests, but also see no value in them.
The other was a same/different testing. I could not accurately tell whether it was the same or different. Afterwards, I listened to the two amps for an extended listening where I still did not know which was which. I greatly preferred one. My conclusion here is that 30 sec. same/different testing is invalid.
Finally, you say if I guess right 7 or 8 times in 10, "we'll discuss fuse "polarity"! Go to hell! You have no basis for such a statement.
As posted somewhere above, I recommended to take three days if needed before changing the fuse. I never told you to do it in 30 seconds.Your anger-fuelled reaction, I'm afraid, is not helping the cause of the poor audiophile fuse!
To a lot of people the word "blind test" is anathema and I understand only too well why that is... I would also like to add, re. methodology of testing, that one of most significant factors of distortion in a blind test is, to me, stress. By doing this at home, the way one wants, stress is as removed from the equation as it can be. The simple blind test I suggest is perfectly valid and a good start. There's nothing else at stake than to try to understand how a component and/or our brain work. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it's not a competition.
These fuses are not a huge amount of money so prospective readers, by all means try them, just be intellectually honest and try to reduce subjectivity to a minimum.
I stand firmly in the camp of those who think so-called audiophile fuses are a total waste of time and money. But I will change my mind if a brave soul from the other camp has the intellectual honesty to test himself and comes up with different conclusions. I really, really don't see how that can be seen as unreasonnable but hey, seems there's some weird thinking going on in the other camp...
Any volunteers?
JB
Edits: 04/19/10
You don't yet understand why I find them invalid, but the concept of validity is one of the most difficult to teach in research design.
I think you would also be best served by studying selective perception and other studies of what is wrongfully called the placebo effect here. It works both ways, if you are a person who thinks "..audiophile fuses are a total waste of time and money" you will tend to not hear their benefit.
I must admit that I don't understand why those so interested in blind tests are so proselytizing. Not many have any concern with them. Furthermore I don't know why any of you weird guys think anyone owes you "proof" that they find x improves the sound. You made you God?
Live long and prosper!
You still fail to explain why the blind test I suggest, which I would just call common sense, is flawed or not a good start.For your information, I wasn't biased against fuses when I bought my Silver Star! I don't have the luxury of spending $40 just to prove I'm right. I bought it because I thought it'd work. I thought I heard something, until I did a blind test.
You don't want to run a simple test, fine. Enjoy your fuse and its "sound". Let's not wonder how from the power station to the speakers that turn your electricity into sound, your fuse can be "heard".
JB
Edits: 04/19/10 04/20/10
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