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In Reply to: RE: Back to ask again (long! sorry!) posted by WilHenry on March 18, 2009 at 17:17:28
Answers:
1) Yes, others (non-audiophiles) have heard demonstration of both the problem and the break-and-reconnect solution, and heard the difference
2) No, main components have been swapped-out extensively. The Arcam CDP is the elder statesman in the current configuration, but even it came along after the first instances of this trouble
3) I can sometimes convince myself that I hear similar things on other peoples' systems sometimes, but not to an extent that would rule-in listener fatigue or tinnitus, since in my own system the problem can often be 're-set" with a quick re-establishment of the IC connections. (The other possible explanations for hearing things in other peoples' systems being, a-they're on the same grid, and b-I could be suggesting that to myself as a means of saving money
4) When it's unpleasant, all CD's are unpleasant. But I do seem to hear (maybe, maybe not) an added component to the usual low-level 60Hz hum that my amp dumps into the speakers, when the problem is happening: There seems, when it's happening, to be a very faint and very rapid metallic clicking sound in the speakers, when the problem is happening, and not when it isn't.
5) Not really a reply to your last, but since it doesn't fit anywhere else: All current electronic compnents in my rig are misbehaving in at least one way that other owners of the same piece cannot confirm with theirs: The Arcam CDP has a power supply that gets burn-your-fingers hot after a short interval of routine operation; the McCormack preamp makes an enormous bang if it is accidentally disconnected from AC, the power amp issues a transformer hum through the speaker wire *and* mechanically, through the front-apron, and the dvd player occasionally makes a very loud, higher-pitched back (a sort of "scratch") totally at random during playback.
...All of which has led other people to suspect contagious failure of electronics, owing to some as-yet unidentified root cause, such as faulty earth ground, excessive DC-offset, etc.
Follow-up thoughts?
Follow Ups:
After reading this post I'm more convinced than ever that this is not your system at all. (The other place where you played your components may also have a ground loop problem.)It is your house wiring and/or a ground loop problem. If the problem is being transmitted from the grid all you can do is keep it out with the appropriate products. If it's in your home I'd bet that it has to be a ground loop situation, because they are so common and so insidious. Is there more than one ground point? You may want to use Al's suggestion for the humbuster as a way to diagnose/ eliminate a possibility. A ruthless inspection of your home's grounding method may show up two ground points, the difference between them may be causing a drastic loop. Al, what would happen if the ground were absent altogether due to a deterioration of some kind?
Anyway, when I break the CATV cable connection my stereo is dead silent even at significant volume setting. It is also much more pleasant to listen to. I still feel like my system is fighting something but have not definitively tested for DC yet. I say there is more because when the furnace kicked on and the CATV connection was intact the speaker hum was very disconcerting. There may also be minor ground loop not related to the CATV.
Who needs this c...!!!! Bill
Edits: 03/19/09 03/19/09
The house was built in 1949 by what appears to be a reputable builder for the time and place (Florida, where safety regs are... well... a Bush was running the place until fairly recently), but much about the way the house works is kinda sketchy. There are hot water pipes running outside for awhile and then coming back in, there are weird outlet plates all over the place that have been "blinded" by the previous owner, and the main breaker box on the outside of the house is showing signs (according to my electrician) of penetration by the weather. On top of that, we already know that all of the AC power in the house except for the dedicated line has no safety ground.
Suppose I find out that the hot-water heater (for example) is grounded separately from the rest of the undedicated lines, outdoors someplace. Does that mean automatically that I'm running a huge risk of ground loops, regardless of the fact that a maximum of one of those circuits is in use with the home entertainment rig?
...Shall I post some pictures?
No, not for sure on the ground loop/ water heater example. Your pictures confirmed the impression I had of the situation-- several modifications to the house wiring over the years. When I upgraded our electrical system (with pro help) I found I was following in the footsteps of some very inept people. As for the ground loop, I was thinking that more than one ground may exist because of rehabs in addition to the fact that sometimes CATV installers will put in a separate ground. The Florida location makes sense with the exterior conduit. Still the seals age and leak so you may have water penetration in more than one location. Because of the presence of water it is even more important that the entire system is properly grounded, by a pro who can be held responsible. So far you have not been shocked but it looks like some preventative work (at least) needs to be done on the electrical system. I can't tell for sure but it looks like some of the breakers are 40amp and not the main breakers? They might have run a whole bunch of legs off just a few breakers. Or are those the main breakers? 40 amp total service is not enough these days.
You may should have a few electricians come out and give you estimates for repairs. You may get a sense of what is wrong from their proposed repairs/updates. There is some urgency on the grounding issue. I said it above, you and your loved ones don't want to become the ground path.
Be safe, Bill
I was just sitting here thinking that, if the money is the principal reason for *not* re-doing the electrical system, then one way to "obtain" the money might be to down-size into less esoteric and uncompromising gear, since even much cheaper configurations have sounded just fine to me when they aren't having to deal with whatever else is wrong. At all events, you're right about a couple of things that have needed attention for awhile:
1) The entire electrical service is depicted in the two photos you're able to see -- an outside master breaker-box and an inside box -- and many, many branch legs have been run off of those puny breakers.
2) The main electrical service has no safety ground and (apparently) questionable 2-pin ground, to boot.
One is left to wonder why something pretty ugly (having nothing to do with sound quality or burned-up left-channel tweeters) hasn't happened already.
One piece of equipment could misbehave because of an internal fault or design sensitivity to peculiar AC conditions, but when all of them do weird things it is time to call in the exorcist!
Can you borrow a DC eliminator device (such as PS Audio Humbuster III) or isolation transformer to power your whole system? Either of these would eliminate a problem of "DC on the AC" from your equipment.
Your power wiring situation is shaky, but it may only be a coincidence with your audio problem. Harmonic distortion causes DC on the AC and may be imposed from outside your house.
Thanks as always, Al, and sorry for having to keep coming back in here every few months and post the whole story all over again.
I looked at the humbuster link -- PS Audio suggests a juicebar downstream if multiple pieces are to be connected, but as you know (now) I have a dedicated line (four outlets) and an undedicated line (two outlets, no safety ground) right next to each other, and all three of audio amplification, digital front-end, and video to connect (no cable).
Would I, perhaps, connect the amp, preamp, and cd-player to the juicebar, and the video stuff to other outlets on the dedicated line? On the one hand I've read that it's a good idea to separate the video (and even the digital audio) stuff as much as possible, but on the other hand I'm concerned that mixing and matching the outlets and lines would lead (is leading?) to ground loops.
You might get some degradation from the shared AC noise environment, but that will be constant. What you are looking for is the lack of obnoxious degradation after 20 to 30 minutes of listening.
If your dedicated circuit is wired and grounded properly and the Humbuster works, then you would need more Humbusters, one for each additional circuit you use. This assumes you don't have control over the suspected harmonic distortion that causes the suspected DC on the AC. If you have a major electrical load that is the cause, then you might be able to address the source.
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