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In Reply to: RE: To continue the incessant questioning - to space speaker wire or not? posted by Japesgalore on October 05, 2008 at 15:26:00
Please post your complete system including power cords and cables, so that we can better advise.
Otherwise it will be a shot in the dark.
Also, does your listening room have a lot of glass surfaces or ceramic tile floor?
C U soon
Edits: 10/23/08Follow Ups:
Cheers, I've got a Jolida CD player, running with 2 tesla and 2 sylvania tubes and a Jolida hybrid amp running with 2 tesla tubes in the preamp section. Speakers are Dynaudio Audience 52SE. Interconnect is a simple spiralled 30awg gold wire in cotton dialectric with rodium plated furutech connectors. Power cords are DIY starquad design without other shielding, running on a dedicated line. Room is 4x5x2.7m with heavy concrete walls and wooden floor covering. Large wooden furniture is closing in the space a bit but have thick cotton rugs on the first reflection points and other large hangings behind the speakers. Theres a large window behind me but it has a thick curtain covering the whole wall.
At the moment I'm working with this cotton/beeswax insulated solid core wire as speaker cable. It's 16awg and, even in a fairly loose, uneven spiral it sounds better than the much larger CAT5 cable I was using - the highs are nicer but there's less bass energy (although it might be a little toughter). My plan is to get it into a quad-core design but experimentation so far has shown its quite difficult to work with. But, with a little perseverence, I should be able to make something decent out of it, especially after applying further cotton dampening. Any experiments with spiralling the wire AROUND a cotton core proved futile - thick gauge solid core wire just doesnt lend itself to that.
As you can see, I'm pretty much decided on keeping the conductors close together. I believe theoretically it's the right approach. Plus, I've reverted to a close spial for a my interconnet after experimenting with a wide-spaced spirals - its much better all-round like this.
Hello Japesgalore
Is your amp this one ?
Model JD 1501 RC: A Remote Control Integrated Stereo Hybrid Amplifier
Rated Output Power:
100 W per channel at 8 ohms, 22Hz to 19KHz
Yes.
OK, here's my 2 cents:
You wrote:
"I have a pretty forward sound, with a bit of glare in certain upper frequencies, and slightly flabby, disconnected bass. All in all, everything seems to be a little tipped up.
I'd say the extention in the high frequencies is about right so I don't want to veer too much from the sound I have. I want to help tame that glare, especially at higher volumes, and get me more of that good ol' bass. Are there experiences out there that could relate? To sum up: to space, or not to space?"
You seem to be dealing with a quality issue: quality of bass and "glare", which can be distortion or midrange coloration.
You told us that the glare increases specially at high volume levels.
So it's a power issue, either distortion from the amp/speaker combination or too much acoustic power, high sound pressure levels exciting room response peaks. However, your room is reasonably damped with absortive surfaces.
Cable inductance and capacitance (separating conductors or not) can effect minor changes in a givem system's frequency response, but do not work miracles, unless there is something aufully wrong with your cables to begin with.
Your speakers cables have enough cross-area (AWG gauge) to provide adequate bass.
Your ICs are potentially more troublesome. 30 AWG is too thin in my experience. This will emphasize treble and lose bass punch. In addition, contrary to popular belief, gold is not a great conductor for ICs. I have made many gold ICs, they all sounded veiled to me, no matter what the geometry. I suggest 24 AWG pure copper, it sounds more balanced.
So,in summary IMHO opinion your IC and speaker cables attenuate highs, your IC also attenuates lows. We have a partial explanation for the soft bass, because lack of treble definition impacts bass definition.
Bass instruments do have subtle upper harmonics that are in the mid/treble range. An easy experiment is to disconnect the tweeters and hear how soggy the bass becomes.
But let's get back on track:
Your speaker specs (my comments between brackets):
Sensitivity (2.83 V/1 m): 86 dB (LOW sensitivity, actually 83 db/W)
Impedance, Nominal: 4 ohms (LOW)
Impedance, (20-200 Hz): 3.4 - 19.3 ohms (VERY LOW and a tough load, many ups and downs, this requires a high-current amp designed for 2-4 ohm speakers)
Impedance, (200-20 kHz): 3.4 - 6.7 ohms (LOW)
Frequency Response (+/- 3 dB): 45 Hz - 26 kHz (Nice)
Your amplifier's specs:
Rated Output Power: 100 W per channel at 8 ohms, 22Hz to 19KHz
(Jolida does not provide a power spec into 4 ohms. If the amp behaved well into 4 ohms, they would surely publish the 4 ohm power ratings, it would be to their advantage).
Frequency Response: (at 1 watt into 8 ohms) 5Hz to 100KHz + 1dB (Good)
Bandwidth: 22Hz to 19kHz + 3dB; 0dB 100 W 1KHz (good at 1W)
Distortion THD: Less than 0.1% at 90 W output, 22Hz to 18KHz
(Please note that distortion increases below 22Hz and above 18 Khz at 90W. This means that the amp is limited by its power supply or circuits, above 90W).
My conclusions:
You are driving 4 ohm power-hungry speakers with an amplifier optimized for an easy 8 ohm load. IME the consequences are flabby bass at most levels, insufficient headroom and possibly distortion (glare?) at high volume levels.
Suggestions: replace your speakers, look for speakers that are more amplifier-friendly and more efficient (8 ohms 89 db minimum) or buy a 100W into 4 ohms amplifier that can accept impedance dips closer to 3 ohms. A 150W amp that can safely play 2 ohms speakers would sound much better in terms of controlling the speaker's tough load.
Dynaudio speakers are known to require lots of current to control them, therefore they DEMAND expensive amps (Google and ye shall find).
No amount of cable tweaking will correct this mismatch issue.
I have nothing against Jolida Integrated amps or Dynaudio 52SE, they are excellent products within their price range, but they are simply not made to work together.
This is my opinion, in my experience, take it for what it is worth.
I am sure you will hear from other guys driving Dyunaudio speakers with Jolida tube amps..but that is a different story...tube amps have a 4 ohm output tap that matches the speaker load to the amp output.
Good luck
Wow, thanks for the in-depth response! I have indeed considered that there could be a mismatch between my speakers and amp but doubt i could do much better without spending A LOT more money. It's true that Jolida doesnt publish stats for a 4ohm output but the amp has a really large transformer (or whatever you call it) so I believe that it can, in fact, deliver a hefty amount of currant (compared to similar such amps in its prive range). I've read a review where the review thought that 100w per channel was actually a conservative estimate.
I've changed the speaker cables to 16awg solid core and the highs are way better now, with much reduced glare, if any! I'll soon be doubling up its thickness and will see if there's an improvement. I've cleaned out my room from all the junk that was lying on the floor and noticed that the highs have become a little more pronounced again so I guess the room is a an area I can still work on - it would help the bass response as well if I got more bass traps in.
Anyway, removing the PVC-infested CAT5 I've been using has made the music a load more natural and enjoyable. I'm actually very happy with the way things are, even without the eath-shattering, gripped-in-a-vice-tight bass. I'm out looking for any pointers or suggestions, cos without it wouldn't have made the type of progress that I've made in such a short space of time. Thanks again.
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