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In Reply to: RE: You guys are accumulating a burden of proof you'll never get out from under of. (Hey!... posted by clarkjohnsen on March 20, 2008 at 12:09:46
On the subject of Schumann Resonance.
I am not wishing to interpret another person's words nor put words into Clark Johnsen's mouth but I think what he might be meaning when he said "You guys are accumulating a burden of proof you'll never get out from under of" was that the more everyone rushes along a path trying this and that and that - at some point along the path they will have to pause and attempt to explain all that has happened - they will have to begin to explain just how the 'sound' has been changed.
I wish to make it absolutely clear from the beginning that I am in no way challenging the observations and descriptions of what people have 'heard'. I fully accept that what they have heard, they have heard !!! And, I am sure that if I have misinterpreted what Clark was meaning he will very quickly put me straight !!
But, someone, somewhere, at sometime has to start to try to explain how the 'sound' has been changed by what they have been doing. AND, it does not make any difference whether the sound got better or whether the sound got worse, if the sound changed at all, then there has to be an explanation.
Starting with the Acoustic Revive RR-77 device generating the Schumann Resonance of 7.83 Hz. For the people who have tried it and heard improvements in their sound, which explanation given by the manufacturer of the Acoustic Revive RR-77 device are you going to go along with, which are you going to accept as the explanation you are going to attempt to work with to try to get some sort of understanding ?
*********************
Descriptions by the manufacturer of the Acoustic Revive RR-77 device.
(1) For Audio equipments
By generating the Schumann Resonance, there is an effect that it neutralizes electromagnetic waves generated from an audio equipment and external harmful radio waves. So interference of electromagnetic waves and radio waves that exist among equipments is disappeared, it becomes possible to reproduce the music clearer, the S/N ratio is improved higher and the distortion is reduced.
(2) For Listening room
Also, by generating the Schumann Resonance, there is an effect that it neutralizes harmful standing waves. And it has the feature of improving the viscosity of the air in the listening room. Therefore, you can reproduce the excellent music, the sound is improved clearly audible, and the depth of the sound image is increased dramatically.
(3) For Listener
It is established medically that generating the Schumann resonance activates the cellular immunity. And it is said that the Schumann resonance produces the good relaxation effects, and the attentiveness is raised greatly. So you can hear the details of the sounds that could not be heard before.
********************
If you chose explanation (1) are they saying that the audio equipment generates electromagnetic waves, that these electromagnetic waves are adverse and that these electromagnetic waves interfere with and adversely affect the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ? And that the RR-77 has such an effect on these electromagnetic waves so as to neutralise their adverse effect on the audio signal ? And that is the reason why the sound gets better when using the RR-77 ?
If you chose explanation (1) then how can generating a specific resonance of 7.83 Hz do what they suggest ? What is that specific resonance of 7.83 Hz actually affecting ?
If you go along with explanation (1) then surely the RR-77 will also be generating similar adverse electromagnetic waves ? How can it not be doing the same as the audio equipment ?
If you go along with explanation (1) then the concept of using a Shakti Stone fits in with the RR-77 generating it's own adverse electromagnetic waves because that, in turn, fits with the explanation given by the makers of the Shakti Stone. The makers of the Shakti Stone claim that there is an adverse electromagnetic field generated by the circuitry of audio equipment and which surrounds the audio equipment. That this electromagnetic field somehow doubles back on itself and adversely interferes with the very audio signal travelling through the equipment which generated the adverse field in the first place. That the Shakti Stone consists of passive circuitry which is only activated when in the vicinity of this stray electromagnetic field and, in turn, then generates a secondary electromagnetic field which prevents the first electromagnetic field doubling back and interfering with the audio signal.
So, if the Shakti Stone, when placed on top of or underneath (or both) the RR-77 gives an improvement in the sound, then is this what is happening ? That the Shatki Stone device is preventing an adverse electromagnetic field from the RR-77, doubling back on itself and adversely affecting the performance of the RR-77 so that the RR-77 can perform better in neutralising the effect of the electromagnetic waves affecting the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ?
If you go along with the explanation (1) then how do you explain hotbird's description (below) of what happened when he did not have a Shakti Stone but used an AR RIQ-5010 quartz insulator instead. What was THAT doing to the RR-77 which, in turn, is then (according to explanation 1) supposed to be affecting the audio signal going through the audio equipment ?
Quote by hotbird.
>>> "RE: Don't have a Shaki Stone but can try an Acoustic Revive RIQ-5010.
>>> "Ok, took a clear AR RIQ-5010 quartz insulator and placed it on top of the RR-77, noted more vivid snare drum snaps, and more texture from a more reverberant bass guitars. Tried putting below too, but the thickness of the disc lifted up the RR-77 of its feet, still works about the same.
As I wanted to use the top of the RR-77 for "schumanning" CDs now, I preferred the tweaks to be below the RR-77 so that the top is free to place CD. Also as the RIQ-5010 was too thick to be at the bottom, so I took a piece of Acoustic Revive QR-8 quartz resonator which is thumbnail size and just placed it below the RR-77 on the shelf-floor not in contact with the RR-77. Worked about the same as the RIQ-5010. In addition, I also stuck one QR-8 resonator to each end of my long DIY DC cord where the jack insert is (like in the photo). Wow, more details, better clarity and texture to the sound now. So in the end, I used 3 QR-8 to upgrade the performance of the RR-77." <<<
If you go along with explanation (1) then, in addition, what does using a better power supply for the RR-77 do ? To what ? Does it allow the RR-77 to produce a BETTER 7.83 Hz resonance ? How can it do that ? Does it allow the RR-77 to produce a LESS adverse electromagnetic field around it ? How ?
If you go along with explanation (1) then how is the positioning (height) of the RR-77 in the listening room so significant for the 'sound' ? How can a specific height of the RR-77 possibly have an effect on what happens to the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ?
If you wish to use explanation (1) then somehow or other you have to explain how, when, where and what affects the 'sound' !!!!!
You can see how 'satfrat' is struggling with his following quote:-
>>> " On Placing the Shakti Stone.
I'm not sure if the Stone is cleaning up the power supply or actually effecting the pulse generator...... what I'm hearing now. It's mind blowing,,,,, " <<<
Or, are you prepared to reject (1) as an explanation and concentrate on explanations (2) and (3) to try to find answers ?
Regards,
May Belt.
Follow Ups:
Hi May
Just to clarify, there was no struggle for me, I plainly don't know what i'm talking about. LOL I freely admit this. But I do know what I hear and I do know about the limitations I have for gear placement in my system. I don't stack cuz I want to, it's totally out of necessity. But for me, in my system and in my situation, stacking the RR-77 on top of a Shakti Stone which is on top of a KingRex ps gave me the best sound than any other option I tried with these 3 pieces of gear. Please realize that all this sits on top of a computer also. Could that have something to do with the Shakti Stone situation? I have no idea but I'm not struggling with it as I'm loving what I'm hearing. I'll leave the whats and whys to you and others who are much smarter than I'll ever be. I simply enjoy the music.
Cheers,
Robin
Please see responses interspersed with the original text of the above post:
If you chose explanation (1) are they saying that the audio equipment generates electromagnetic waves, that these electromagnetic waves are adverse and that these electromagnetic waves interfere with and adversely affect the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ?/ Yes / And that the RR-77 has such an effect on these electromagnetic waves so as to neutralise their adverse effect on the audio signal ? / Yes / And that is the reason why the sound gets better when using the RR-77 ? / Yes
If you chose explanation (1) then how can generating a specific resonance of 7.83 Hz do what they suggest ? What is that specific resonance of 7.83 Hz actually affecting ? / The explanation that makes sense to me is that the 7.83 hz pulse has the effect of breaking up concentrations of high frequencies, that otherwise feed into the circuitry, rendering them harmless.
If you go along with explanation (1) then surely the RR-77 will also be generating similar adverse electromagnetic waves ? How can it not be doing the same as the audio equipment ? / Of course this would have to be correct.
If you go along with explanation (1) then the concept of using a Shakti Stone fits in with the RR-77 generating it's own adverse electromagnetic waves because that, in turn, fits with the explanation given by the makers of the Shakti Stone. The makers of the Shakti Stone claim that there is an adverse electromagnetic field generated by the circuitry of audio equipment and which surrounds the audio equipment. That this electromagnetic field somehow doubles back on itself and adversely interferes with the very audio signal travelling through the equipment which generated the adverse field in the first place. That the Shakti Stone consists of passive circuitry which is only activated when in the vicinity of this stray electromagnetic field and, in turn, then generates a secondary electromagnetic field which prevents the first electromagnetic field doubling back and interfering with the audio signal.
So, if the Shakti Stone, when placed on top of or underneath (or both) the RR-77 gives an improvement in the sound, then is this what is happening ? That the Shatki Stone device is preventing an adverse electromagnetic field from the RR-77, doubling back on itself and adversely affecting the performance of the RR-77 so that the RR-77 can perform better in neutralising the effect of the electromagnetic waves affecting the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ? / Precisely.
If you go along with the explanation (1) then how do you explain hotbird's description (below) of what happened when he did not have a Shakti Stone but used an AR RIQ-5010 quartz insulator instead. What was THAT doing to the RR-77 which, in turn, is then (according to explanation 1) supposed to be affecting the audio signal going through the audio equipment ? / The pure quartz material has the capability of absorbing both vibrations and radiated fields. The RR-77 puts out a pulse 7.83 times per second. The same forces that interfere with the perfect behavior of your hi-fi components are at work on the body of and the circuitry of the RR-77. If it can be made to deliver that pulse in a more focused fashion, it stands to reason that the RR-77 will work even better. So then does one need an RR-77 on top of one’s RR-77? Don’t know. It might be a worthwhile experiment.
Quote by hotbird.
> > > "RE: Don't have a Shaki Stone but can try an Acoustic Revive RIQ-5010.
> > > "Ok, took a clear AR RIQ-5010 quartz insulator and placed it on top of the RR-77, noted more vivid snare drum snaps, and more texture from a more reverberant bass guitars. Tried putting below too, but the thickness of the disc lifted up the RR-77 of its feet, still works about the same.
As I wanted to use the top of the RR-77 for "schumanning" CDs now, I preferred the tweaks to be below the RR-77 so that the top is free to place CD. Also as the RIQ-5010 was too thick to be at the bottom, so I took a piece of Acoustic Revive QR-8 quartz resonator which is thumbnail size and just placed it below the RR-77 on the shelf-floor not in contact with the RR-77. Worked about the same as the RIQ-5010. In addition, I also stuck one QR-8 resonator to each end of my long DIY DC cord where the jack insert is (like in the photo). Wow, more details, better clarity and texture to the sound now. So in the end, I used 3 QR-8 to upgrade the performance of the RR-77." < < <
If you go along with explanation (1) then, in addition, what does using a better power supply for the RR-77 do ? To what ? Does it allow the RR-77 to produce a BETTER 7.83 Hz resonance ? How can it do that ? Does it allow the RR-77 to produce a LESS adverse electromagnetic field around it ? How ? / See above.
If you go along with explanation (1) then how is the positioning (height) of the RR-77 in the listening room so significant for the 'sound' ? How can a specific height of the RR-77 possibly have an effect on what happens to the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment ? / The pulse generated by the RR-77 travels downward and outward, so to cover an area that encompasses the majority of the system in the room, it needs to be above a certain height.
If you wish to use explanation (1) then somehow or other you have to explain how, when, where and what affects the 'sound' !!!!! / Again, the explanation that makes sense to me is that the 7.83 hz pulse has the effect of breaking up concentrations of high frequencies, that otherwise feed into the circuitry, rendering them harmless.
Thank you for your courteous reply.
So, Joseph, under your reasoning all (1), (2) and (3) explanations given for the RR-77 are in place ? The only one I was questioning was (1) i.e 'having an effect on the audio signal'.
However Joseph, surely, if you are correct in your explanation then why are some people so surprised by the effect of the RR-77 on their sound ? People who I would have regarded as quite intelligent and well informed would, surely, have just shrugged their shoulders at any improvements they heard and commented "Well, one would expect it to have that effect on the audio signal - no big deal" ?
It is exactly their surprise at their results after trying the RR-77 device that I touch on in my article just published in Positive Feedback Online. And, if the RR-77 device is having the effect you describe on the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment, then why are not the manufacturers and distributors of audio equipment ALL using the RR-77 in their demonstration rooms at Hi Fi Shows ? If the RR-77 device is doing what you suggest it is doing, then simple logic tells me that some of the worst environments in which to demonstrate Hi Fi equipment are Hi Fi Shows and Hi Fi Retailer's demonstration rooms - choc-a-block full of audio equipment - and therefore in dire need of such devices !!!
This next part is not specifically aimed at you Joseph, it is a general comment and observation because I see it as within ONE "world of audio" - ONE audio world covering manufacturers, retailers and the buying public (who are also quite knowledgeable regarding audio matters). I am still on the subject of 'surprise' - surprise at the effect of something on 'the sound' and it is about the latest coverage of 'cable elevators'. It is the same inclusive 'ONE world of audio' but with completely conflicting viewpoints - and, I suppose, these conflicting viewpoints stretching back over 20 years to when Enid Lumley described being able to improve her sound by lifting the cables up from the floor with strips of string or cotton.
On the one hand we have the latest article on the Dark Field Cable Elevators from Shunyata Research in Positive Feedback Online describing improvements in sound gained by using 'cable elevators' and these improvements also confirmed by others 'posting' on Audio Asylum. Yet, on the other hand we have 'postings' on the Stereophile Chat Forum ridiculing the whole idea !!
Regards,
May Belt.
May,
I think that I only addressed explanation (1) in my response. I have not seen an explanation as to why the RR-77 should effect the viscosity of the air in a room, and would rather to speculate as to why. (I will ask the manufacturer to explain how they feel that comes about and report back here.) I have heard that Schumann Resonance devices are being experimented with in the dairy industry to help cows give more milk. If that is true, it would seem to support explanation (3) which in turn could be explained by the claim that this resonance exists naturally in places that are undisturbed by modern technology. I think it is fair to say that we feel better when we are away from civilization. In fact, the electronic media that we bombard ourselves with could be seen as an attempt to fill in what we are missing: when we are on a trail in the mountains, the moon rising over a ridge is enough. (There is a larger context to this discussion which has to do with the experiment we are conducting on ourselves by living in a sea of electronica (microwaves, cell phones, computer screens, etc) and toxic substances that directly affect our well being. If in fact we need a device to correct the devices that detract from our well being, then perhaps it’s time to rethink the whole thing.)
But back to the question at hand regarding why people are surprised: I think the acknowledgement of the effect that the RR-77 is having by a fairly large number of people actually represents a breakthrough in the general understanding of how systems behave. I have been saying for years that the interactions between all of the devices, traces, chassis material, circuit board material and wiring in a circuit are practically incalculable, that the interactions between all of the materials in the construction of a single cable are way more numerous than can be acounted for by LCR alone, that the interactions of all of the individual components, wires, materials that make up the room and building are probably infinite. This is not original thinking but purely derivitive of what I have learned from others and what I have observed. Everything vibrates. Everything has an electrical charge. Each material is in relationship with the materials around it. This is why there is no such thing as a vacuum, even in a vacuum. There is only continuum and ever shifting relationship.
The blind men and the elephant can be said to be true of our knowledge of systems: no one of us has heard every system in every context. Based on limited experience, each one of us draws conclusions and embraces preferences. In a sense, trying to solve all of the problems inherent in systems by only changing components whether on a macro or micro level is like trying to build a skyscraper in a two dimensional world. One has to step back and observe what forces are acting on the system from a more global perspective. Acklowledging that the RR-77 works on the system/room/individual without being directly connected or even touching points to another source of interference which I would postulate is the sum total of interactions of any given system. This new understanding can be seen as a watershed moment. It may enable us to continue working on solutions that will be more universally applicable.
Regarding postings and counterpostings of cable elevators etc. (As a general comment): It is disrespectful of others to tell them that they cannot have not heard what they say they have heard because acknowledging their experience would be in conflict with one’s own world construct. It is always better to listen and learn.
Thanks,
Joe Cohen
Dear Joe,
May I say that that was a delightful reply. Particularly :-
> > > "One has to step back and observe what forces are acting on the system from a more global perspective. Acklowledging that the RR-77 works on the system/room/individual without being directly connected or even touching points to another source of interference which I would postulate is the sum total of interactions of any given system. This new understanding can be seen as a watershed moment." < < <
A watershed moment indeed !!!!!!!
Now, can we go on from that very point.
Regards,
May Belt.
A fruitful conversation, indeed!
Thank you.
...they probably won't be coming in our lifetimes!
You have delineated the problems faced by anyone who would attempt explanations of this (or any weird) phenomenon. Nor does it help that no one in the "'scientific' community" has ever taken such things seriously, so far as I know. It's all outside the textbook, not an area they care to venture into without serious and sustainable funding.
My title about "a burden of proof" was intended humorously (as Norm saw); I was attempting to waylay those scoffers and scorners who insist on others spending their money to establish "proof" when all *they* would have to do is listen. But you took it seriously, and you are right: the phenomenon deserves explanation and elucidation, as the beneficial results seem to be shared by everyone who's tried the thing. (I haven't yet.)
clark
:-)
findings...like Acoustic Revive and marketed these tweaks as Brillant Waves and Schumann Belts ;-)In some parts of Asia, if you are enjoying a delicious meal in a restaurant, try not to visit the kitchen to see how's its made, as you may vomit after you see the way it's prepared. Similarly, if the tweak works audibly for me, I will respect the explanation given and not try to make a mountain of a molehill of how it really works. After all I do not need to know the fine details of how the CD player works when it plays beautiful music as I am not out to manufacture another one. As long as it works, and can verify with others that we are not hearing things not there, it's fine.
Of course, if you are in the same trade, it's your perogative to pooh-pooh the explanations given, as it may be a competitive advantage ;-)
From Acoustic Revive's web site:"Ultra low-frequency pulse generator RR-77 is used in the major recording company!!
Because of the great effects of the RR-77, recording engineers or musicians take notice the RR-77. recently, the RR-77 is used for the recording process of the major recording company; it has given full play to its ability for not only recording equipments but also a live performance of a piano and other instruments. The RR-77 is also used at every music schools and concert."
Well check the URL for the recording artist and studio in Japan that uses Acoustic Revive RR-77. As for the RR-77 being used at every school and concert, you have to either accept it as a very bold artistic marketing license or assume that it's really used in the Japanese schools there. Can't verify this for you as I am not Japanese ;-)
Most likely they intended to say, "even at schools and concerts." Coulda got lost in translation. That would eliminate the "RFI getting into the electronics" angle, at least for the live performance thing, eh?
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