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In Reply to: RE: The soldering procedure you describe appears to still be OK. posted by rick_m on December 30, 2007 at 15:28:32
He can solder the twisted equipment ground wires splice but per NEC an equipment ground wire connection cannot depend solely on solder. He will have to use a crimp connector or a wirenut over the soldered joint.
Follow Ups:
They require a mechanical/electrical splice before soldering, brazing or welding. I would suppose that simple twisting or better yet twisting a Western-Union splice should be fine. I think this goes back to the knob and tube days but I know of people that have done it much more recently.
Rick
City inspectors in my area require jointed equipment grounding conductors be mechanically held. Most house wiremen here twist, solder, and tape their joints. Even though they twist and solder the grounds, they still must use a crimp sleeve or wirenut on the equipment ground joints.
NEC 2005 250.148 (E) page 70-115.
I personally like Scotchlok brand or equal wire compression connectors instead of solder and tape for splices.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
I read the section in my older 2002 NEC and it really just seems to repeat, and reference the earlier splice requirements. I suppose it's open for interpretation and not being my field I know not of the nuances involved, especially the quasi-political ones.
I found it interesting that folks in your area still solder joints. All I've seen are wirenuts with the occasional crimp used on grounds. The guy that I know that soldered his had to show the inspector the code because he didn't believe that it was acceptable and that was decades ago.
Just based upon AA postings I'm given to believe that folks have found that micro-arcing in supply wiring to be a problem for audio equipment. If there's anything to that then soldering (or eliminating) as many of the joints as possible would seem to be a good thing and I was tickled to find that it's still an approved method.
Sort of a sad testimony to the design quality of our gear that much of it won't work properly on normal power feeds...
Rick
Twist and wire nut.
End of story.
If that's not exceptable to an audiophile I suggest they then open their electricial panel box and examine the connection of the romex to the
circuit breaker.
Then look closely at how a circuit breaker is mounted in that panel box.
Better yet. Buy a 30amp circuit breaker open it up and look at the 2mm braided wire, the 4mm round open and close contact of said breaker.
15 and 20 amp breaker are built the same.
Then try to justify all this crasyness about twisting two wires together.
Let alone the use of special wall plates, outlet fixtures, etc.
> >
Here is a new 30 amp breaker.
Nice braided wire.
Look at those high quality 4mm contacts.
If the companies that can turn a $4.00 outlet into a $120.00 outlet
put their efforts in a $15.00 breaker and turn it into a $500.00
breaker some audiophile will say how much blacker the blacks are.
> > Nice braided wire. < <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Plenty big for the current it will carry. You have to take into account the short length of the jumper. Look how small the link is in a 20 amp fuse...... No voltage drop across it is there?
I tried to guess the manufacture of the breaker shown.
GE?
WESCO?
ITE?
Wadsworth?
Who is it?
If you get the time could you pick up a Square D QO 120 breaker and open it up? Take a picture and post it here on AA. Try to leave all the innards intact for the picture including the handle.
Thanks,
Jim
They something special.
> >
Then I'll spend some of my SSI disability to purchase one and cut it open
for you. I'll take some pictures also and post them.
Not sure of the price at Home Depot.
I would be more than happy to reimburse you. Just send me an Email.
Thanks again,
Jim
I appreciate that.
I've already purchased a GE and a Siemens breaker,
one 20 amp and one 30 amp to show audiophile's about
the need for super duper outlets and super duper extension
box's so they don't restrict "the current".
You know the current that manages to pass through a breaker
and all of a sudden needs to pass through greatly over sized
and priced audiophile approved devices.
Well... Do bear in mind that ascribing the problem to micro-arcing is just my take on it. I mean, can all the people spending more money on plugs, sockets and extra circuits than I did on my whole system be wrong? If they aren't, that seems a likely explanation to at least some of it.
Wire nuts are iffy from my experience. They're application sensitive. For instance, we bought a new house years ago and moved in before the power was on. We were told to just let them know which outlets were dead. Well, some were and I just fixed them, in every case it was the 'professionally applied' wire nut connections.
Your picture isn't too clear, but it looks as though the wires may be welded. The screw contact from the breaker to wire is easy to get gas-tight and the breaker to bus bar connector has a very high insertion and contact force. Hopefully that is also true of the master breaker and meter contacts.
Naturally the best solution is to fix the equipment so that it isn't as susceptible to these sorts of things. However that may not be possible after the design stage and is certainly not something the end user should have to do. So trying to reduce the problem externally is the best bet.
Rick
At the time I used a Nikon 3800. One of those pocket camera's.
I will take some new pictures with my D80 and 60mm micro.
As for bad connections.
Just because some electrician or! maybe the diy homeowner did the job
wrong or poorly doesn't mean their's anything wrong with them.
I am suprissed the soldering of household electricial wiring is legal.
I always thought it wasn't. It's totally unnecessary anyway.
Open many Audiophile products and you'll see the transformer
wires using a crimp buss or spade connectors.
I can't see these people getting all worked up over using wire nuts.
If used correctly their noting wrong with them.
Especially in light of reality about the use of aluminum wire to feed the panel box. The box itself. The circuit breakers.
The 50, 100, 150' of romex from the circuit breaker to the wall plug.
Paralleled wiring, staples, bends, and all the other necessities of running electrical wire within a home or apartment.
I am surprised the soldering of household electrical wiring is legal.
Actually residential electrical contractors swear by it. Hardly never any callbacks.
Every outlet opening is pigtailed for device install during rough-in. The electrician will first go through and strip and twist all the joints. For recepts he leaves one wire long, ( of the grd, neutral, and the hot) With his strippers he cuts the insulation of each of the long wires, (hot & neut), and slides the insulation forward on the two conductors. He then twists the remaining stripped conductors around the three bared longer conductors respectively. the three extended wires become the pigtails. He uses the same process for lighting openings also.
Receptacles are not used as feed through make-up devices. Takes to much time....
After the electrician goes through the entire house twisting the joints he then goes through the house and solders all the joints using a butane torch. After he does that he goes back and tapes all the joints and pushes them back in the box ready for trim out.
All of the above procedures goes faster than you would think. They have it down to a science.
By the way in my area before calling for a rough-in inspection all outlet opening boxes have to have all their joints made up.
Only two inspections, rough-in and final...... Nothing like commercial/ industrial.
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