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Posting for some advice on room treatment -- and hoping some pictures will help. The story is that my audio system (SET / single-driver -- details listed under "Main System" in my personal information) is currently in something resembling a closet in our apartment in New York City. We have a log cabin upstate, too, but no room there has struck me as an obvious "listening room." My wife has been gunning for a jacuzzi and sauna in the unused room in the pics below (and I can't say that I'm 100% against :-), but she's decided to renovate the kitchen instead; so, I'm taking over. Completely dedicated listening room of decent size and regularity: 13' x 15' even rectangle with 8' ceilings. The problem is its construction, which is almost completely fieldstone "borrowed" from the state forest behind our property. Beautiful stuff, but not sure that it's "what listening rooms are made of." Is there *any* hope for this room -- or do I turn it into a wine cellar (which is what it looks like)??? Please see pictures and comments/questions below:
West wall. I would like to have speakers "against" this wall so that I face this direction (lake view, sunsets, etc.). In reality, I listen in true nearfield configuration, so they won't really be *against* anything. Still, something obviously must be done to cover those glass doors. (They open -- but only into a *completely* glass sun porch.) How about thick velvet drapes covering them (along with my view)?
North wall. Okay, lots of stone, obviously. Would be nice to replace space heater on left with gas fireplace -- especially since plumbing is already installed. A big trophy of a moose or something above it to soak up reflections? Nah -- I'm a vegetarian :-/ How about tapestries....
East wall. Hmmm. Lots more stones. Anyway, this is the wall that I'd sit against -- although a few feet out. (Windows look into a bathroom of all things; this was once an exterior wall. Okay, more heavy drapes?)
Large closets constructed of thick pine paneling form most of south wall; door on right side of pic exits to a deck. There's a tiny step-down slate foyer there.
Ceiling is the same think pine paneling that the closets are made of. Probably the only okay construction feature of the room :-/
Floor is poured concrete. Am thinking padded sisal carpet -- wall-to-wall.So, there it is. My very own listening home. It even locks from the inside! But, as my subject line asks, "do I want it?" That is, can I truly achieve the transformation of a cave into a decent listening room without spending a fortune on room treatments and working like a dog to get things set properly. The risk is taking apart a system that functions pretty well where it is -- although it's in a tiny space. Not exactly sure what the rewards could be.... Although it looks pretty bad on the surface, at least the room is rigid! And the fact that all surfaces are highly irregular might be at least *something* in my favor. Don't know, though -- have never tried to set up an audio system in anything even remotely resembling this kind of space. That's why any input would be most appreciated!
Edits: 11/25/07Follow Ups:
I too would try a angled placement. What matters for you is what happens after you hear the sound. So listen with the southwest corner behind the speakers, left speaker in front of the south wood wall, right in front of the windows. You still get your view. Temporarily try an area rug, under the listening area and extending back behind you to the northeast corner (thus creating a quiet zone for you and sound that has passed you). Don't do any other room treatments 'til you find out how that sounds. You can introduce them as needed. Berber would work better than sisal, or wool.
Steve
Hi Jim,
I'm sure you have gotten most of what you need with regard to opinions about the room. I have two suggestions that might help a little. I have a large sliding glass door behind my speakers and the view is an important part of what I like (particularly at morning and dusk - I admit it sounds best to me when the room is dark). I also listen in the near field (about 8'). I had a level one Rives Audio done and Richard suggested I put fabric vertical blinds on the window to creat a bit of diffusion. I was skeptical, but tried it and it works well and I still get the view. He also had me put honeycomb blinds on several other windows, but obviously you lose the view. He also had me put up 2" fiberglass panels for the first reflection and they make a huge difference. I made them by mounting them on artist frame and canvis, then covered them with Gilford of Maine accoustic fabric. (I actually have six of them in various places in the room and four more on the behind me on the ceiling). I also use diffusion and a mondo trap and the room sounds quite good. Obviously the rock will be a real challenge, but how can you not try?
in diagonal placement based on idea from this site http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/paper14.htm&intro
it looks awkward at first , but i get used to it now. With traditional setup in my room, i got null low freq.
Yes, I've read that "white paper." In fact, I've read a lot of Steve Deckert's material. Don't always agree with what he has to say; but, whatever it is invariably gets me thinking. So, all for the best. I've never tried that diagonal placement; but, one of Steve's papers inspired me to try (and taught me how to set up properly) a true nearfield configuration for my loudspeakers. Based on the results, I've never gone back!
I've tried different methods on traditional setup,but i never get any close to the triangular setup , especially comes to the low freq. However, i notice the high is a bit recessed. In the end i'm pretty happy with triangular setup as the sound is balanced. Being said that, i still have corner traps and fist refection point :) It looks kind of cool.
Hi.
Not that bad at all , given there a voided wood ceiling which helps bigtime to tame down ringing in a not-too-small room dedicated for audio.
To stop uncontrolled reflections from the two french doors backing the loudspeakers, just add a thick curtain which can be rolled aside to show the lake scenary outside when music is off.
You may add cheapie decorative wall carpets at both sides of the wall franking the loudspeakers, preferrably at the location of FIRST reflections from your loudspeaker.
Lay wall-to-wall carpet, with fully bonded rubber underlay to absorb footdrops & side/ backwall reflections.
Then try to clap yr hands to detect any prolonged reverberations.
Then take from there.
Don't think you need to drop a bundle for it.
The final question: you still want yr music for your weekends - without yr neighbours' finger pointing?
c-J
Thanks so much for the informative suggestions so far. And although I'm obviously not accumulating tons of support :-), I was obviously prepared to hear what I didn't necessarily want to hear. I don't post questions otherwise....
One issue that might inform things, though, is that I now see that I obviously downplayed the amount of time we spend upstate. We're not a day's drive away -- more like 35 miles. So, we spend every weekend there, solid weeks in the summer (although it's a nasty commute, especially in the morning), and lots of vacation time. It's really a toss-up between apartment and cabin as to where more listening would get done. (Besides, apartment neighbors and audio systems *never* get along! Oh, well.) So, while folks are astute enough to ask, "will you use it enough?" the answer actually is, "yes."
And as far as the room, itself, is concerned, it's sat unused (except to store some furniture, which is now gone) for two or three years. The living room, den, library, bedrooms, sunroom, etc. -- almost all of the living space -- is all upstairs. (This place is *too* big for us -- considering our apartment is like a closet in comparison :-/ ) No, it's truly wasted space that I'm trying to utilize *somehow*.
That said, I certainly understand the obvious limitations of the space as a listening room (which is why I ask the question in the first place). I simply didn't know -- with my very rudimentary understanding of sound treatment options -- whether I had overlooked a very obvious and easy "fix" for the room. The very informed responses that I'm getting make me feel like my intuition (which is all that is was) was pretty much "spot on." This is likely not where I belong. Please, though, continued suggestions are most welcome.
Any many thanks to those of you who have taken time to help me out already. I definitely don't mean to argue -- particularly when the substance of the responses strikes me as right on! I simply didn't want the "you're never going to be there" misimpression (which *I* created) to dissuade anyone. Thanks!
You can certainly make the room work but it won't be cheap. You're up for carpet and some drapes to start but then you're up for some startup costs whatever you choose to use the room for so there may not be much difference there. It's what comes later that may make the difference.
I think it is probably a highly reverberant room. Carpet and drapes will help but it's still going to be highly reflective with a fairly hard sound which you're going to need to tame. A near field listening setup will certainly help and there's no cost to setup, but you will still need some acoustic treatment in my view. There are DIY options that will make the cost of that quite reasonable but there's also some time and work involved. The results would, in my view, justify the costs of making those treatments, and that includes the financial, time and work costs.
What you may not be prepared to pay is that if you set things up as you're suggesting, the first thing you lose is the view because you cover the doors with drapes and lose the view and natural light. Actually, during the day you could open the doors and keep the view and light since an open door to the outside is a perfect absorber and that may help make things workable to a much greater degree.
In fact, what this single issue with the doors highlights is the question of whether making the room workable for good to high quality music reproduction will turn it into a room that loses enough of it's good points (view, light, character) to make it a less than satisfactory room to spend a lot of time in and you're going to want to spend a lot of time there if you turn it into a listening room. You've got a tube system with single driver speakers, it's not a high-tech system (this is not a criticism) but you're effectively talking about building a high-tech style environment, something with a lot of visible acoustic treatment, in a room with a fairly rustic appearance in many ways, to go with that system. I can understand that the room has some charms for you because it looks like it could be made into a very nice room if you were going to turn it into a library or sitting room, but I wonder how much of that charm would be destroyed by visible acoustic treatment and how well the resultant 'feel' of the room would sit with your system and with your tastes. That's the question I think you have to answer and I think that is the underlying issue that's niggling at you.
There's a number of us here who can offer advice on how to treat the room and I've no doubt that we can get you to a point where you'll be satisfied with the sound, but I'm not sure the resulting room will be one that is congenial to you and I think a congenial listening room is just as important in some ways as an acoustically good room. I think your room needs to be both if it is going to make a satisfying long term listening environment. Only you can make the decision as to whether you want to live with the room.
David Aiken
A number of points made here are very well taken. (And don't worry about saying that mine is "not a high-tech system." That's sort of the whole point -- but a different discussion, right? :-) With that, I've been shown by other posters (and have done some exploring on my own) what a "high-tech style environment" looks like. Sorry -- and absolutely no offense intended -- but not for me.
That said, I don't want anyone to be confused. This room is pretty damn far from being the most beautiful room in the home. (Which is why it became "mine, all mine" ;-) I'm not going to ruin the look of the place by covering up the walls of a room that's not even original to the structure. The balance of the place is constructed of 100-year-old chestnut logs; floors are either barnboard or slate; ceilings are petrified cypress. And enough rooms have views. No, this room is the "ugly duckling" for sure. I don't find the rock-quarry-for-walls look particularly attractive, so don't worry about recommending things that would tone that "ambience" waaay down. At the same time, though, nor would I find egg cartons glued all over the walls particularly attractive.
So, I guess I'm left with a simple issue/question: if I can get away with padded wall-to-wall carpeting and drapes across the glass doors (as I originally proposed) for starters, then will some amount of tasteful fabric that is meant to be hung on a wall calm this room down? It could be anything from vintage Native American wool blankets to Indian or Far Eastern tapestries. (My wife's a decorator and has access to tons of this kind of stuff.) Or is the high-tech look, as David suggests, about the only thing that is going to turn this into a success?
OK, I see I have to be more explicit :-)
First, I don't have a problem with high or low tech systems or the ones that come in the middle. I've yet to hear a system that was genuinely loved by its owner that didn't have something to offer, something different from what my system offers. That's good because we don't all like the same things and I genuinely enjoy listening to other people's systems. It's nice to hear something in a familiar disc that comes over in a different way, putting a different slant on the music quite frequently. I often find that particularly rewarding.
So, if I had to categorise what I think some of the main points about your system would be, I'd probably say warmth and coherence. An overly reverberant room with lots of hard reflective surfaces can destroy both of those characteristics. If your system offers those things and you like those things, be careful. The reflective surfaces will reduce the natural high frequency roll off that occurs in most rooms and contributes to the type of sound we call 'warm'. An excessively reverberant room can produce distinct echoes and/or spread and smear the imaging of a system, and both of those things can destroy some of the coherence that a single driver provides. Those things certainly don't have to happen in the finished room, but they constitute the starting point with that room and they're probably a couple of the biggest problems you're going to have to work with as far as sound quality goes.
"…I'm left with a simple issue/question: if I can get away with padded wall-to-wall carpeting and drapes across the glass doors (as I originally proposed) for starters, then will some amount of tasteful fabric that is meant to be hung on a wall calm this room down?"
It will certainly calm it down somewhat. No-one can say how much at this stage because the choices you make for soft furninshings are what is going to determing how much you calm the room down. For carpet, go for wool if you can and a deep pile. For wall hangings, also go natural fibres and hand woven, not machine woven. The looser pile of a handwoven rug will be more beneficial than a tight machine weave. Thickness definitely helps, so don't go for thin. It just won't be as effective as thick. For curtains, you want thick with deep pleats but a better option may be a lighter weight curtain with acoustic linings behind them. These linings are used to cut down external noise which they do by absorption, but they also absorb internal sound as well. I've got them on my windows along one wall and they do make quite a noticeable difference plus they don't interfere with the look of the room. They're simply another, thicker curtain hidden behind your front curtain.
I think you can certainly make it workable without going for a high tech look but you're going to have to work at it. One thing you could try is framing some decorative light weave fabrics like a batik or similar in wooden frames and concealing polyester or fibreglass batts behind them for absorption. In other words, making sound absorbing panels like those in Jon Risch's DIY instructions but using decorative fabric to cover them so the panels don't look like acoustic treatments. Alternatively, if you want to use rugs on the wall, don't wall hang them but hang them on a frame spaced out from the wall a few inches to get a bit more effective absorption from the addition of an air space behind the rug.
Another alternative I forgot to mention is books. Tall bookcases stuffed with books provide quite a deal of absorption and a little bit of diffusion. Lots of books can help considerably with the acoustics and certainly don't look high tech.
I think short of throwing a fair bit of acoustic treatment at the room, you will not hear a system like yours at its best in the room, but that does not mean that you can't get it sounding quite nice, and definitely nice enough to enjoy listening to music.
I said in my final paragraph that the room has to be both an inviting space as well as providing reasonable acoustics. I think its fine to trade off a bit of acoustic quality for a more inviting space. I know that's a trade off I make to some degree in my room, though we all have different ideas on what makes an inviting room. The big question isn't whether I think it can be done or someone else thinks it can be done because the room can certainly be made to sound reasonable without going high tech. The question that only you can answer, and probably only by trying, is whether you can do so and end up with a room you can live with together with sound quality you can live with. No one but you can make the call on what is an acceptable room and acceptable sound quality for your purposes.
David Aiken
Thanks, David, for your continuing insightful comments. I certainly find them very valuable -- although they may, in the end, come to naught: you've pretty well convinced me that, although I may be willing to go to significant lengths to get this room "up to snuff," I'm likely starting from so far behind that I suspect that I will likely never be truly satisfied with the results.
It's actually ironic that our respective systems have somehow entered the conversation. My move to single-ended topology came on the heels of the realization that most every other circuit (and, by extension, system) design -- and I've tried many -- started out with some inherent flaw and utilized a host of "fixes" (most of which simply led to more flaws and more fixes) to achieve ultimate success. Whatever that particular component's or system's "ultimate success" was. Just like this room! With that, it makes me very uneasy to feel like this is exactly what I'm trying to do, here -- i.e., start out with a flawed concept and go to great lengths to mask those flaws. Better to find a more amenable environment to begin with -- and have things go smoothly and naturally right from the beginning. I've been able to do that repeatedly in the past -- except it's always been in small urban environments (that is, apartments). This seemed like my chance to start from scratch with a single-purpose room (into which I could have run any number of dedicated AC lines -- another plus that I never even mentioned and that I was pretty excited about) and make no compromises. I haven't heard from anyone that doesn't think that the room is at least somewhat compromised to begin with, though. (And, as I've said before, that was my original inclination, which was the entire purpose behind my original post/question.)
On the issue of whether this room would be *particularly* incompatible with my system -- implying that it would be better suited to some other system -- I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning. (I was afraid that this was going to happen, which is why I suggested earlier that this was probably a discussion that should happen elsewhere.) I do agree that "low tech" is possibly an okay shorthand to describe amplification equipment that utilizes single-ended topology and for loudspeakers that eliminate crossovers (or, indeed, really anything between power amp output and driver). It's a term that sweeps awfully broadly, though, when one starts to consider (in a "high tech" way) the amplification properties of something like a directly-heated triode -- and the manufacturing process required to build such devices with quality and reliability. There are obviously a number of reasons why the average audio consumer wouldn't know a 45 if someone dropped one on his head; but, the fact that it's essentially unrivaled when it comes to inherent accuracy/linearity in amplification is probably not one of those reasons.
Either way, I get "coherence." I think that coherence is something that everyone desires in a system and that everyone tries to achieve. And I can at least imagine -- without having experienced it -- that my room might destroy that for any system with "coherence" as a goal. But, I'm afraid that I simply don't get "warmth" -- and never have. Now, that said, you're not the first person to use the term with me, so don't worry :-)
Of course I know that there are lots and lots of vacuum tubes in my system. And I know that lots and lots of vacuum tubes can exhibit an unwelcome (at least to me) over-lushness and bloom -- a kind of smearing, oozing quality that people mistake for . . . well, all kinds of things. I also know that lots and lots of vacuum tubes can exhibit an equally unwelcome (at least to me) hardness and edginess -- a kind of clinical, sterile quality that people mistake for . . . well, solid state (at its worst). There *are* tubes "in the middle," though, that many people find just plain accurate. I would posit that the 45 is one of them, which is why it's the mainstay of my current system. (Hasn't always been this way; used to go crazy for a pair of Magnepans sucking up boatloads of current! Talk about extremes.)
In any case, my point is absolutely not to argue the merits of different system set-ups. Do I like mine? Of course. Would I marry it -- as in, "'til death do us part"? Not sure. I may like your system; I may not. And vice-versa. Doesn't matter. What does matter -- at least to my sense of curiosity -- is why you think (and I hope that I'm reading you correctly) that the room in question would be better suited to a certain kind of system than it would mine. In other words, if we're all going for "coherence" (at least I think we are), then excessive reverb is going to kill it for all of us. As I said, I've never "gotten" warmth. I get accuracy, though; and if we're all going for accuracy (at least I think we are), then reflective surfaces are going to kill it for all of us.
And, David, listen, this isn't to argue with anything you've said. I repeat, you've been extraordinarily helpful in steering me away from what I am beginning to think is a mistake. And I may be reading you wrong -- or over-simply. But, it seems to me that you're advancing a position that holds that "some rooms are better suited to some systems; other rooms are better suited to other systems." Aside from the very general (i.e., something like "huge planar speakers don't belong in bedrooms") and the very particular (i.e., something like "this trap cured this standing wave at this frequency in my system in my listening room"), I don't see the obvious force behind an argument that says that "tubes go in this room, solid state goes in that room," for example -- assuming that's what you're getting at. If it is, then you may be absolutely correct. Like I said, though, the position doesn't strike me as obvious; but, if there's truly merit there, then I would love to understand....
Jim,
I wasn't so much trying to match rooms and systems so much as rooms and people. I think our systems say something about us and I was trying to extrapolate from what I was deducing about you from your system page to how the room would suit you.
Don't get me wrong. As I said, I do think the room can be made to work with your system and without filling it with highly visible acoustic treatment but doing so depends much more strongly on making really effective choices for curtains, carpet and the like. Each time one of those choices doesn't give you all you can get from it, the chance of not ending up with sound you'll be happy with increases.
On the other hand I think that with a dedicated room, someone (definitely not everyone) who has gone the 'high tech' route may be more inclined to make a matching visual statement with room treatment as well. It's a lot easier to guarantee successful results soundwise with that option and the treatments are a lot easier to deal with visually if you're going to make a statement with them. I think there is definitely a place for the "if you've got it, flaunt it" approach with room treatment if you can make the treatments and components into a strong and complementary visual statement but my feeling was from your comments that this approach was definitely not what you wanted.
With a more 'average' room, it's a lot easier to be able to do a lot with soft furnishings and to add a few selected acoustic treatments in ways that are less visually 'overpowering' than trying to do everything with treatments can be. That's the approach I've tried to take in my own room with some success though I would love to make the treatments less obvious in my room. I'm once again thinking about ways to do that currently.
As to the tubes and warmth, one of my close friends whose system I enjoy listening to often runs SET amplification and vintage Altec Lansing horns though he is using add-on supertweeters with them. That system sounds a little warmer than mine but I suspect that the warmth tends to come more from the contribution of the 15" woofers in comparison to my 6.5" woofers rather than from the top end of the system. When I think of tubes, I tend to think in terms of the sound of his system in comparison to mine and I think his is slightly warmer as I said. In absolute terms I regard both systems as reasonably neutral though I'd also say that both are on the warm side of the neutral range rather than the cool side, with his a bit more to that side but still within the neutral range. Whether or not you regard your sound as warm in absolute terms, I think it will probably shift to a cooler balance in a room like that unless the system setup and what you do with the room manage to reduce the acoustic signature of the room very significantly. And while I agree with you that many of us go for accuracy, we can't achieve absolute accuracy and I think that we each prefer to be slightly to one side or the other of that. My assumption was that you would go for the warm side of dead neutral.
David Aiken
My home has some of what your second home has. My views of pastures, mountains and a lake in the distance has a lot of what I want and brings out how I feel about my music that I listen to while still being able to look out side. What ever you don't make it a cave, sight still goes along way with how sound feels in your over all being.
...that's the first question you have to answer.Are you going to spend enough time here to want your primary system here?
And if you do modify the room for it, will you be spending most of your time up there alone?
Personally, I'd go for the jacuzzi outside where there's a view first.
Then the room.
You will need heavy lined drapes behind your speakers along the wall with the two glass-paned doors with the view. You can't optimize your music-sound and have a view.
Next, a good pad and wall-to-wall carpet is a great idea.
Now you'll need something to absorb first tweeter reflections (rugs on the walls or wall hangings) and bass traps.
Then you'll need to fine-tune the room's reflectivity vs damping it.
The room might make a better library with a compfortable chairs to sit, read and listen to your iPod in while taking in the view.
Build the wine cellar, stock with some of your nice upstate wines with a tasting area. Put in a nice tube headphone amp. A great room and a view too. Jacuzzi's are nice, wine cellar is better. I don't think you could ever get the sound you would like from speakers, other then going very near field and low level. The clap test is got to be loud, maybe enough wine racks and bottles with a thick carpet your only hope.
.
The room is not in a house where you spend most of your time.
The room is largely stone with a lot of glass.
It has views, either of the country or the bathroom (???!!!???).
A concrete floor.
This is not the room for your best equipment.
YOu want to listen to it more often than that and you will have to change too much of the room to make this a good idea.
Do the kitchen. Do the jacuzzi. And send us the photos!!!
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