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In Reply to: RE: Complete speaker cable RC-Network filter plans available posted by cdc on November 03, 2007 at 20:21:23
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Follow Ups:
With the filters installed, you will hear more information from your loudspeakers. Clarity is improved, timber of instruments more natural, stunning with vocals for HT, etc....read the .pdf, I go into detail what you should expect and what I experienced in my system and others I have tried them on.
Chris
Hi.
What hi-cut frequencies you chose for your R-C fitlers to reveal "more inforamtion from your louspeakers" assuming this is an RFI filters per the Walker Audio" link.
Sonics is so subjective. Can you come up with more technical substantiaton. But I don't buy any commercial talks by the vendors without any technical substantiation.
c-J
the white papers, waveforms, graphs and testing procedures that show how playing vinyl through a water scrim is, as you've so vociferously argued on VA, a) musically advantageous, and b) does no harm to record or stylus.
I'll just assume the mess and time involved is worthwhile vis-a-vis the sonic advantages produced, so no need to go into that aspect of the procedure.
Since you're the only person I have heard talk about using this technique (though I have heard of it, many many years ago) and you seem to rely so heavily on the "technical" aspects in building an audio system, I'm eager to see the black-and-white evidence to support your claims.
TIA
Hi.
Before the moderators move it to an more appropriate venue...
But out of courtesy from me the technical nut, produce your technical substantiation to support your challenge that wet playing LP does damage the vinyls.
I've been playing them for many years - wet. So? If there is any technical write-ups on wet vinyl playing, I want to read? Tell me where to find some.
c-J
I don't know what it is-it's certainly not mainstream.
But of course, I'm not really referring to your soggy records-the point you've made for me is that there is no scientific or 'technical' reason to be forcing your poor stylus to hydroplane through an H2O bath in order to play some music-however you, as opposed to 99.9google% of other vinyl aficionados, have decided that it's the way to go even without scientific or 'technical' proof.
In other words, get off your 'technical' soapbox concerning the much less far-fetched tweak being discussed. You're just another case of the pot calling the kettle black.
vaya con dios
Hi.
So you make yourself a case of lime calling lemon bitter as you already answer your question for me. Thanks.
c-J
PS: why don't you tell us how you 'tweak' or treat the kids last Halloween? Oh, yes, this is tweak/DIY forum.
*Demands evidencial bona fides from cdc to validate his tweak, yet when asked for the same for his own, um,"different" methodologies, wants proof that it's not scientifically plausible. i.e, you can't prove it's not viable, ergo it must be viable.
*Using syntax that grows more tortured the further his arguments deteriorate, he mimics my old maxim with head-shaking results, at least to those of us here on The Planet of Linear Logic.
*Ends his exercise in Master Debate with a nonsensical reference to kids, trick-or-treat, and Halloween that, frankly, gets creepier with each reading.
Nice job so far, Jack! Keep diggin' man-the hole just gets deeper and deeper.
Hey C-J...here's a post by Al with some more technical details...characteristic impedance matching, corner frequency, etc.
Hi.
We better shield up our loudspeaker boxes completely as there are inductors/caps inside the box which only make the RFI effect worse.
On the contrary, I placed the X-over networks for my loudspeaker system outboard, which should be affected by RFI much much more. How come my music sound so good???
c-J
Hi.
Don't try to corner yourself in a dead-end alley.
Yes, the characteristic impedance of a cable for wave transsfer is a crucial factor for any audio interphases.
I agree we have to pay due attention to RFI on powerlines & audio front ends where RFI intermodulation can cause complex audo waveform deformation upon amplification, affecting the sound.
But we are now dealing with strong audio signals going through the loudspeaker cable into a very low impedance passive loudspeaker load.
How much sonic effect, if ever detectable by our ears, such RFT can act on the strong signals at the end of the audio journey??
Use common sense, please.
R-C shunt filters when hooked up across the loudspeaker terminals, do change sound due to something else more relevant, e.g. damping factors, not simply RFI.
c-J
The speaker output ports of your power amp admit RF noise from the speaker cable. There are plenty of locations inside where the parasitic capacitances allow noise energy to penetrate to the gain sections of the amp, and many amps have feedback networks that couple a fraction of the output directly to the input.
Once RF noise gets to the gain sections, it intermodulates with the audio signal. One outcome of this intermodulation is production of spurious audio-band tones that mimic natural musical overtones. These spurious tones are most obvious as the bright, spitty treble of enhanced sibilants and mushy cymbals, but also cause a dry and disconnected midrange and a vague bass. The soundstage is brought forward and compressed. Massed voices and instruments are blurred together. A low level of RF noise pollution causes just a little treble enhancement and often is mistaken for an increase in "detail." However, careful listening tests reveal that the true detail in the recording is suppressed by RF noise.
These R-C networks help by loading the speaker cables to reduce their resonant quality factor. Cable resonances takes broad-spectrum background RF noise and amplify it at the resonant mode frequencies. This is true for all cables, but the methods to treat power cords and interconnect cables are different. The strong resonant tones of undamped cables are usually the biggest contributor to audio degradation from RF noise.
Once the audio cables are damped, further improvements can be had by damping resonances in the house power wiring network, and placing filters on the AC power feeds to noisy non-audio appliances. These are two different actions, and complement the other measures to reduce RF noise pollution.
RF is in megahertz. Thus hi-cut. 20K is thousands not millions- that's the difference. Getting crap in the form of RF and EMI makes things sound clearer, more enjoyable etc. That's my technical take. Of course the bottom line is it must make an improvement regardless of what the tech specs say or promise.
ET
I differ from you. I want to know what time it is, not exactly how the clock works. That is not to say I do not know how these filters work. I am not really interested, nor do I have the time or equipment to come up with technical substantiation. I do think you are correct, sonics are very subjective.
I took the time to write the DIY project plans so that others can benefit from such an effective accessory/tweak. The plans are made available to the public for free. I am not a commercial vendor, and will not be selling the filters. I did not come up with the concept of the filters, nor am I claiming invention rights. It is up to you, like I stated in the plans, if this DIY project is not for you, I recommend that you try the Walker Audio's product.
Chris
Hi.
Just this morning, I made a quick stop over in Wal-Mart to pick up some replacement mineral wool filter for the air registers for my home heating system to get ready for the cold winter.
My attention was grapped by the big pricesign $9.99 for a bathroom weight scale. I stepped on one & showed I lost 6 lb weight! I went back to my office & jumped onto the digital scaleplatform in the warehouse at the back of my office to recheck my weight. Thank goodness, I do not loss any weight at all as I check it weekly.
You believe what all said in that Walker's link? I don't as I'm under the impression he does not know what he is talking about.
RFI filters for loudspeaker cables? Give me break, please. Someone again uses science as smoke mirror for vendoring again.
To get a fuller picture of loudspeaker cable conditioning, may I suggest you to read more. Read up the white paper: "The effects of audio cable as related to articulation of speech & music", published by MIT (Music Interface Technologies Inc), a maker of expensive yet well raved loudspeaker cable+conditioner systems.
Still I read it with skeptism as the measurement charts published catered for their cables, again a vendors's one-side story, but this paper is much more convincingly relevant to what you are going now.
Don't make me wrong, your excellent effort in sound improvement is appreciated, no need to take invalid reference from Walker's sales pitch which reads like a joke to me.
When there is a shunt R-C filter across the speaker terminals, there are other more relevant issue involved, such as damping factors which affect the sound.
c-J
Were you going to use the bathroom scale under your amp or speakers?
Bob :-)
PS: Many thanks for the excellent write up! Tons of people are going to be playing around with this.
Just imagine? People sitting down with soldering irons, during the writers' strike, playing around with caps and resistors!
To paraphrase "Ahhh. The smell of rosin in the morning reminds me of VICTORY!"--Robert Duval in Apocalypse NOW!
Bet the little filters would fit inside of the empty, small, 1/2 pint, heavy cream cartons I throw away.
A novice in basic electronics; verify anything I post with an expert.
I agree with everything you have said. And as I read your post, I was laughing to myself. I was not laughing at you, I was laughing because I believe I actually understand where you are coming from. The thing is, I have no desire to prove to anyone "why" this design works.
On many occasions I have wanted to share findings or experiences in the past with other audiophiles. Except for a very few instances, I kept to myself and a few friends I know that are into high end audio. I just do not have the time to discuss, nor the desire to debate why this or why that. There are many (!) aspects of an audio system that effect the overall performance. These filters have improved the performance of my system to a degree that has impressed me. So I finally broke down and shared some of my experiences with them and how to construct them.
Chris
The wise man knows he doesnt have all the answers, the unwise dont.
Howdy
In general here at Tweakers' we talk about what makes a difference in our experience, we don't try to browbeat others with our beliefs (no matter how well or uninformed.) You made your pointer earlier and whether or not you believe a given explanation we don't really care. Some will read your post with interest and others may decide to try for themselves.
Email me in private if you have any questions.
-Ted
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