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In Reply to: RE: R-1 in. Its quite something posted by ArdRi on August 10, 2007 at 10:02:46
I am glad that you found the R1 worked in your system ...Mine it did not sounded very tubey and undefined go figure...
I did leave it burn in for 2 weeks still sounded the same...
Mines a cryo version from cryoparts.com
Maybe somebody has some insite to why it sounds that way for me..
Lawrence
Follow Ups:
What kind of house wire do you have? What sort of plugs and power cords did you use with the R1?
We can learn from each other's experiences in this forum. AFAIK the reports so far on the R1 have been uniformly positive. Your experience could provide valuable information, both to those contemplating the R1, and those of us interested in the materials interactions.
Perhaps you should try one that is not cryo'd.
Usually proper cryogenic treatment offers greater resolution and definition, not "very tubey and undefined" performance. That's certainly been my experience for many years. A non-cryo'd part, which some prefer, might offer a slightly different tonal balance, and likely *less* definition. I can only think that this R-1 needs more system time to develop, otherwise I sense some materials interaction that is not explained (such as with the power cables used, etc.)....odd indeed.
I continue to be simply amazed at this cryo thing. There must be umpteen thousand cryo labs out there, each bragging that their procedure is the best in the world. Cryo is a shot in the dark with regard to which is exactly the right process for the item being processed. Then of course let us not forget the human error factor of the manufacturing variables. No sir, there are just too many variables to say one cryo process is the one to use for every component. If in doubt try the product without cryo. After all the manufacturer of the product DID NOT build the cryo process into the original design. One really needs to ask the question WHY.
"There must be umpteen thousand cryo labs out there"Mike, there are umpteen millions of us now! Where have you been? Ha! ;-)
Lee
There must be umpteen thousand cryo labs out there, each bragging that their procedure is the best in the world.
Several, perhaps....and some don't brag. They just do the work quietly as intended.
Cryo is a shot in the dark with regard to which is exactly the right process for the item being processed.
I think that's an oversimplification that only serves to confuse, rather than illuminate. There are essentially two, perhaps three primary processes to consider: 1) vapor treatment that does not reach below -300F, 2) true deep cryogenic treatment that *does* reach -320F, and 3) true LN2 immersion as performed by Jena Labs and NASA. There are only a small handful of facilities that treat materials at -320F, and perhaps only 3 or 4 in North America that have the capability to perform immersion. The rest of what you might be alluding to is soak time. Certainly, that is a debatable point between qualified individuals (those actually having experience), and one that can only be resolved via listening tests....but that's part and parcel of what our hobby is about.
Then of course let us not forget the human error factor of the manufacturing variables.
Or machine error. Or material contamination. Or changes in alloy constitution. Or....?
No sir, there are just too many variables to say one cryo process is the one to use for every component.
And there are some who have done their homework.
If in doubt try the product without cryo.
Never an argument from me there....the results are always a matter of personal preference, something I've espoused continually for years and years.
After all the manufacturer of the product DID NOT build the cryo process into the original design. One really needs to ask the question WHY.
But Furutech does....and Acoustic Revive....and Shunyata....and a host of other cable manufacturers that do not advertise this fact.
As to the others....why? Maybe the manufacturer didn't think the process mattered. Maybe the manufacturer didn't have proper cryo facilities available (I know that to be the case internationally). Maybe the manufacturer simply didn't want to spend the dough (many feel that way on many issues....).
Why do most amplifier manufacturers still use cheesy fuses? Why do many component manufacturers still use cheesy RCA connectors? Or low-grade hookup wire? COST, COST, COST. And likely the attitude "that's good enough". Which is the how and why many, many audiophile companies came about in the first place, in the attempt to MAKE THINGS BETTER. Cryogenic treatment is no different.
AFAIK, Oyaide does not use cryo treatment for the outlets as part of the manufacturing process. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Oyaide appears to be the most dedicated of the specialty audio outlet manufacturers. Simply look at a Furutech outlet next to an Oyaide outlet and compare the details in finish. It seems reasonable that Oyaide would use cryo treatment if they thought it gave even a slight benefit to the performance, and that they would have experimented with it in developing the outlets.
One main feature of specialty audio outlets is higher spring strength in the contacts, to reduce susceptibility to contact resistance modulation from acoustic vibration. This strength derives from the alloy used to make the contacts, and the work hardening that takes place in the alloy when the contacts are formed from sheet stock.
Cryo treatment is a method of annealing stress from metal parts: it is used by race car engine builders in place of high temperature treatment. They want the piston bores to remain round and not be distorted by cast-in stresses in the blocks. Old school bus engines were favored as starting points for race engine builders before cryo treatment, because of the many hours of slow, steady work that slowly annealed out the block stresses.
If cryo treatment reduces contact metal internal stresses from work hardening, it may relax the spring strength and make the outlet more susceptible to external vibration. This would counter any benefits from improved electrical conduction.
Finally, keep in mind that the copper wire attached to the outlet will have suffered from work hardening, especially in cases where the audio outlet replaces some other type. One could obtain a Dewar flask of liquid nitrogen and treat the wire ends, but I don't think any audiophile is THAT dedicated.
AFAIK, Oyaide does not use cryo treatment for the outlets as part of the manufacturing process. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
In this you are correct.
It seems reasonable that Oyaide would use cryo treatment if they thought it gave even a slight benefit to the performance, and that they would have experimented with it in developing the outlets.
Not necessarily. In point of fact, when I first met the Oyaide gentlemen at CES 2005 (along with Joe Cohen), I discussed this very issue. I did not receive a definitive answer. Rather, they seemed to be very intrigued by what I had been doing. They may indeed have thought that their exacting processes would trump whatever Furutech was doing at the time, as a point of pride (Furutech was repeatedly mentioned in our conversation, when comparing plugs and connectors....Be Yamamura was the translator, btw). As engineers and designers, they may feel that cryo treatment is secondary to their criteria, and simply dismiss it. They are still aware of the after-market treatment I perform, along with other vendors purchasing their parts in the US....it's not a secret. They are also quite aware of what Acoustic Revive does with their parts in re-branding the DX and R-1, for instance. We can also presume that if they thought that cryo process was hokum, and/or thought it denigrated their products and processes, they would refuse to do business with Acoustic Revive, or for that matter, those of us in the USA. Why they still do not utilize cryo treatment is, unfortunately, pure speculation. At some point I will make the inquiry again.
One main feature of specialty audio outlets is higher spring strength in the contacts, to reduce susceptibility to contact resistance modulation from acoustic vibration. This strength derives from the alloy used to make the contacts, and the work hardening that takes place in the alloy when the contacts are formed from sheet stock.
Cryo treatment is a method of annealing stress from metal parts: it is used by race car engine builders in place of high temperature treatment. They want the piston bores to remain round and not be distorted by cast-in stresses in the blocks. Old school bus engines were favored as starting points for race engine builders before cryo treatment, because of the many hours of slow, steady work that slowly annealed out the block stresses.
If cryo treatment reduces contact metal internal stresses from work hardening, it may relax the spring strength and make the outlet more susceptible to external vibration. This would counter any benefits from improved electrical conduction.
Considering all the after-market treatment I've given outlets over the years, I am not in accordance with this last paragraph. I actually continuity-test each outlet (as it's being conditioned on the Cooker) before shipping. It is rare that any outlet does not grip the AC plug with great strength. In fact, it is sometimes quite difficult removing the plug. However, you may be talking about a theoretical ideal regarding spring strength ("if" and "may"). I highly recommend that you speak directly with Charles at Cryogenics International about these issues. He deals with racing companies and other industrial products every day, and has long experience with the whys-and-wherefores of treatment. He is also very well-versed in metallurgy, and can discuss these matters on your high level. I would be intrigued to find out the results.
when I first met the Oyaide gentlemen at CES 2005 (along with Joe Cohen), I discussed this very issue. I did not receive a definitive answer. Rather, they seemed to be very intrigued by what I had been doing.
Yes, I too spoke with Muruyama-san and he was well aware of my work with cryo treating the Oyaide products. We had a nice conversation (interpreted) and he was very interested in the results of my work and the results. I was very impressed with his dedication to quality. In fact, IIRC, we even spoke about the Acoustic Revive (Joe C imports both lines) as an example of the DX cryo'd.
Al, I certainly respect your knowledge on the subject and defer to your knowledge of mechanical and electrical interactions affecting the performance of AC gear. I did a quick search (I don't visit here that often) before posting this message and it appears that there are some fantastic insights to be gained from your posts. I look forward to reading through them as time permits.
I can only relate the experience of myself and my customers over the past 2 or 3 years I have been cryoing Oyaide (Alan and I were the two first two dealers to pick up the line upon it's entry into the US). I haven't noticed any reduction in tensile strength and the "grip" of the receptacle before and after cryo.
Moreover, many of my customers (and I as well) have had Oyaide's installed for quite a while now and they seem to grip as well as they did on day one, and I am always plugging and unplugging ridiculously heavy power cables. However, this is experiential evidence, as I have not measured tensile strength, so take that statement what it's worth--an opinion from a dealer, on an internet forum! Ha!
There are a few other manufacturers of AC gear that use cryo as an integral part of their manufacturing process, however, they are mostly unknown here in the US. These companies are every bit as quality driven as anything we have available here currently in the States and view cryo as one of the most important parts of the recipe for their end product.
Interesting discussions. I might have to lift my self imposed forum ban and start visiting more often. Lots to learn from everyone here.
Peace,
Lee
Hey, Lee....interesting that Acoustic Revive seems to only treat the internal contacts, not the whole outlet like we are.
For CCR-DX, only the electrode part is treated by super cryogenic -196°C at SOUND ATICS to improve conductivity.
Al will like the following:
Rhodium plating processing on installation metal fittings!
Installation metal fittings on CCR-DX are been treated by thick rhodium plating to improve strength and decrees vibration effect.
Complete non-magnetism body structure!
Magnetic bodies are removed from all CCR-DX parts and plating. Such as nickel and iron, to prevent sound quality getting destroyed by magnetic distortion.
nteresting that Acoustic Revive seems to only treat the internal contacts, not the whole outlet like we are.I wonder if they receive the different sub assemblies of the receptacle at different times; the internal metal parts from Oyaide after they plate and polish (and plate and polish and plate and polish...Ha!) them and the shell direct from whomever manufactures that. Perhaps it's easier for AR to cryo the internals separately and then assemble the separate parts into the whole after due to logistics and timing?
Speculation, yes. A good question to ask the Acoustic Revive folks at CES, methinks.
Lee
As Alan observed, my points are speculative. I've not had the honor of meeting the Oyaide representatives. I do know Joe Cohen and have discussed Oyaide products with him. I do use Oyaide outlets in my setup.
There is a little NIH (Not Invented Here) in every designer, so Alan's points are well-taken.
The contact pressure is modulated by acoustic vibration, no matter how strong the basic spring tension may be. If cryo treatment modifies the acoustic resonance spectrum of the outlet contact spring (different regions within the formed contact will have different degrees of work hardening depending on how severe the bending had to be to form them), then this will add to any sonic changes due to electrical conductivity improvements from the cryo treatment.
do your own due diligence.
Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you.
BTW - I've had great dealings with you so it's not a personal thing.
....that auditioning cables in the attempt to find complete system synergy is the crapshoot (and I've been saying that for years as well). Discerning differences/improvements with cryo'd products has been a heck of a lot easier in my experience. My 3 cents.
Any further analysis is comparable to counting how many electrons are dancing on the head of a pin....something I'm not interested in pursuing.
NT
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