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Some feel that ALL listening rooms need acoustic treatments (not just curtains, drapes, rugs, etc.) for optimal sound and upgrading speakers is a waste of money until done so by measuring response and decay times,etc. yet most inmate gallery photos or descriptions don't include room treatments (panels, etc.) nor DSP or the like. If the system sounds ok but speaker upgrades are being considered (upgraditis/audiophilia nervosa), is it foolhardy in the "cart before the horse" sense to get new (usually more expensive) speakers without first making the room optimal via treatments?
Follow Ups:
"... is it foolhardy in the "cart before the horse" sense to get new (usually more expensive) speakers without first making the room optimal via treatments?"No, but do consider the size, shape and layout of the room. Finishes, furnishings, absorption and diffusion can often be changed at nominal cost, but not structural characteristics - they can be quite expensive and time-consuming.
Loudspeakers and room acoustics go hand-in-hand. It's not necessary to do one before the other.
Good room acoustics, for a given purpose, are good room acoustics. Bad acoustics are bad acoustics. Reduction or even elimination of unwanted low frequency resonances and standing waves, good diffusion and free of flutter echo and glaring reflections from specific locations/surfaces, a smooth reverberant characteristic across the frequency spectrum with a somewhat rising emphasis on lower frequencies, all contribute to achieving good acoustics. Much of this can be accomplished with interior design, but some qualities are also dependent upon the size and shape of the room.
Then also, there are factors which may be costly or impossible to overcome, often having to do with exterior sound (noise) sources: Traffic noise, low frequency rumble from trucks, airplane noise, other exterior sounds (wind, rain, kids playing, etc.), HVAC system, wall resonances, sounds emanating from other rooms, etc. Mitigating the effect of these sources can be quite costly. But, from the text of your poast, it looks like you're primarily concerned with the room's interior design. So...
Assuming your room doesn't have any glaring problems with its structural design or layout, and is of a reasonably large size (say, 17' x 20+' x 10'H or larger), your choices among speakers are pretty broad. Only if there is a particular design element which can't readily be dealt with (a large wall of glass windows, or small-ish size, or unusual shape, etc.) will you need to rule out or in certain types of speaker designs. Of course, this will also depend on your intended playback situations - one or two listeners seated, a group of people moving about, etc.
Armed with these thoughts in mind, go find some speakers which you like, and which will work in your space. If you discover that there is/are problems which can be mitigated, such as those outlined earlier, then address those as needed. But be sure that you're using the right 'fix'. All too often, audiophiles and others simply throw absorption or broadband bass traps at the problem, when a more specific or different remedy is called for.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 01/22/24
It all depends on your objective. Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a truly (measurably) "flat" system in a properly/thoroughly treated room with DSP and all the other "accessories"? I have.
Chances are, you probably won't like it, or at least be very underwhelmed by it. 100% flat/accurate?--yes. Pleasurable listening experience?--probably not so much. Lifeless is perhaps my best single word description.
Choice of speakers, room parameters, choice of music, recording quality, reproduction quality, hearing characteristics, all play into the total picture (sound).
Personal preferences are the biggest bias. Just remember ONE thing--it only matters if it sounds good to YOU!
I've seen this statement posted on multiple audio forums--when you turn your system on, does it return the favor. That about sums it up.
"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
I think that far too few of us consider the Number One question when buying new speakers. We should ask ourselves "What is the best TYPE of speaker for my particular room?" Putting a standard box speaker in a room is often not the best way to avoid the need to think about room treatment.The correct choice of speaker type is, in my view and experience, the best way to avoid an expensive and regretted purchase. After careful research and a convincing dealer demo, I bought a pair of electrostatic speakers from Martin Logan's Masterpiece Series. Big mistake as they just didn't get on with my room. Box speakers fare better, but horns sound far and away the best at my main listening position. In fact I "should" be using omni-directional speakers in my particular room as there are areas behind the speakers where I spend time. However, my tests with omnis has highlighted their poorer imaging compared with my horns, so I'm hesitant to change.
The point I'm making is that sticking with box speakers may not be good in your particular room, or may need far more effort by way of consideration of carpets and furnishings, or resorting to room treatment, or the last resort of "DSP Room Correction", than for example a simple switch to horns - or some other more suitable type.
In any event, with any new speaker purchase, it is essential to audition at home before you commit. Buying used is less critical as you can re-sell at little or no cost. I lost a huge amount on re-selling my Martin Logans, buy I only have myself to blame as I took too much notice of how they sounded at the dealer's showroom.
Edits: 01/08/24
Hi
If you set your speakers up outdoors over grass away from buildings and sit and listen (in fact have a bbq and listen), you hear the most powerful stereo image your speakers can produce and there are no wall reflections and all you hear is direct line of sight from the driver to you sound....AND there is no room containment so you also have wimpy bass.
In this condition, you can't hear any difference at all (if response mag and phase etc are the same) between narrow or wide dispersion (as long as the speaker is pointed at you) as the only sound that hits your ears is directly from the radiator / speaker.
In a room small speakers might be flat at 1 meter but as the room contains more and more of the sound as the frequency falls (the room is getting acoustically smaller) , the low end rises to the preferred curve at the LP that Floyd Toole et al identified. if sitting up close, In this case, you mostly hear what travels directly from the speaker to your ears and flatter response. The omni speakers work great IF you and them are far away from the walls.
The issue is, the recording has X stereo information and reflections are room specific late partial copies and so are never beneficial to the realism of the recorded image in front of you.
In a room when your close, you may be in the near field where the direct sound is louder than the reflected room sound where the most convincing image is. As you move away from the speakers the room sound level increases with respect to the direct level. IF this was a giant room, you could move much farther back where the room sound is much louder than the direct sound, you could tell it was music but not what song. Room sound is noise so far as speech intelligibility and articulation.
Directivity is what CAN give horns and large electrostatics and other physically large speakers (size is related to directivity) a much larger near-field than most and so there is less room reflected energy at the listening position.
While it is true that certain types of speakers will do what they are supposed to with fewer hassles than with other types of speakers, some of us are after a certain *type* of sound that is not found with other types of speaker designs...So associated hassles seem to be worth it, at least to us. Because we are audiophiles (or something like that).
Edits: 01/08/24
My point is that, to avoid the need for artificial and invariably ugly room treatment, careful choice of speaker type may need sensible consideration.I'd have liked electrostatics in my room and bought a costly pair of Martin Logans, but this turned out to be a bad decision because they were incompatible with my room's characteristics. See my room photo posted above. With 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other with a wall behind that is floor-to-ceiling glass (and at a curved angle), electrostatics would not work - even with room treatment and/or DSP. Likewise, I'm sure open baffles wouldn't work here either. If speakers need to be very close to the back wall, most box speakers don't perform at their best. Choosing a speakers "to suit one's music preference" may well fall apart if they don't work well in one's room. That's all I'm saying, but others may disagree.
Edits: 01/08/24
If there are speaker types that provide certain types of sound, no other types can replace them. So you might want to learn how to work with the type(s) you really like.
Of course, there are limits to how much "work" I'm willing to do in order to enable that "signature sound" I'm looking for but as long as the work requirements seem to be within reason, I might give it a go.
> If there are speaker types that provide certain types of sound, no other types can replace them. So you might want to learn how to work with the type(s) you really like.
The "type of sound" should vary very little from one type of speaker to another, as all speakers are designed to deliver as near to the original performance as possible.
However, although I accept that some people like the "sound" of one type of speaker and are reluctant to consider any other, they may well be thwarted by their room acoustics not allowing that type of speaker to deliver its best in that particular room. A much bigger difference in sound may result from room acoustics than the difference between 2 types of speaker.
That might be all that this diatribe amounts to.BTW, the "best" type of speaker system for that big, weirdly-shaped room of yours might be an extreme near field setup using controlled-dispersion loudspeakers of some kind in order to take that "big, weirdly-shaped (glass-filled too) room" of yours out of the equation.
I'm pretty sure you'd notice a "big difference"...
Hey, I'm thinking of setting up a secondary speaker system consisting of Genelec monitors in a near field arrangement. That way I'll have the best of both types of home cookin'.
Edits: 01/09/24
The point of my original reply to the OP was to suggest that choosing the right TYPE of speaker for the listening room is the No 1 consideration.
In my own room, horns happen to be ideal as I've found by introducing other types and rejecting them. When I first moved here, the room was a real problem and I set about improving matters without resorting to artificial room treatment panels, etc. Adding carpeting to 30% of the floor area made a huge difference and this was followed by more soft furnishings and curtains. I'm now very happy with the sound, despite no room treatment and no DSP. It could be further improved but not by any near-field system - perish the thought! That's like resorting to headphones! Horns are very directional and are less disturbed by poor room acoustics or proximity of walls than any other type.
Your first route towards ideal sound seems to be via room treatment. Perhaps (only perhaps) none would be necessary with other types of speaker that can perform well without these panels, etc. ;-)
Horns can be very directional but not necessarily---I've used horns with a horizontal pattern of 60 degrees and others with a 130 degree pattern. Using the same drivers they sounded quite different.
Simply, no.I've already gone down the rambling road of experimentation, I'm far beyond mere theory. I've listened with and without room treatments, I've used narrow dispersion speakers and wide dispersion speakers, and I've tried many different speaker/listener positions. I now KNOW what it takes to get the kind of sound I want from different types of speakers in my room (in MY room - not in YOUR room)...
And one of the things I've discovered along the way the way is that different speaker types have recognizable sonic signatures. And I now think that some of these differences have more to do things like driver types, dispersion style, etc.., than with any type of room condition. A horn simply does not *sound* exactly like a panel does. An omni does not sound exactly like a monopole does, etc...
Also consider that different speaker types provide different "listening window" sizes. If you want a fairly wide/tall listening window you don't want speakers with a tiny listening window that demand sitting in one spot in one chair with your clamped head in a vice in order to HEAR them properly...
So, while narrow dispersion speakers might reduce the need for room treatments (somewhat), they may not suit the listening habits of people like me who do not want to sit all day long with their head in a vice in order to hear a bit of extra detail.
I (for one) like to move around and even stand up occasionally while my system is playing... What use would I have for narrow dispersion/tiny listening window speakers ? Naturally then, I'm willing go to a certain amount of trouble to accommodate wide/tall dispersion style speakers in MY room.
OTOH, someone who likes sitting in one spot with their head in a vice might be able to save some money on room treatments. But I think I can safely say that any type of speaker that sends ANY amount of "excessive"energy" onto nearby room boundaries can probably benefit from some type or some amount of treatment.There are so many factors to consider in setting up a personal speaker system and I feel as if you have glossed over some of these factors. And for some reason you seem to think that the presence of room treatments is a sign of system and/or listener dysfunction, but I can assure you that this is not always the case.
There are as many different paths to "audio nirvana" as there are different speakers and different rooms, and once we know what type of speaker suits our listening habits best it is sometimes worth a bit of extra effort to accommodate a certain type of sound that truly works for us as "recreational listeners".
Edits: 01/10/24 01/10/24 01/10/24
> There are so many factors to consider in setting up a personal speaker system and I feel as if you have glossed over some of these factors. And for some reason you seem to think that the presence of room treatments is a sign of system and/or listener dysfunction, but I can assure you that this is not always the case.
Thank you for describing your approach to getting the best sound at your listening position.
We are both trying to achieve the same, but we seem to give different priorities to the various decisions needed to achieve this. I think I've chosen the most appropriate type of speaker for my own room, but I accept the compromise of a relatively small sweet spot, though far bigger than you imagine with your vice-like fixed position description! As I admit, omnis would be the better choice if I was prepared to accept their much poorer imaging. I've chosen to forego that advantage of omnis, though I have half-hearted plans to introduce omni high frequency units that I could switch to in place of my top-end horns, but always using my bass drivers.
My order of priority when it comes to getting the best sound is:
Choice of speaker TYPE
Choosing an ideal model within that type (and within budget)
Very careful positioning and setting up
Consideration of carpets, curtains, soft furnishings, etc
Room treatment if all the above fails - it shouldn't if earlier steps applied
Applying "Room correction" DSP if too lazy to do the above or the system is too complex eg multi-speaker setups
Others may well ignore or disagree with my No 1 priority, but this will add considerably to the difficulty or necessity of applying the other factors.
I am very happy with my speaker setup, though I do admit it has a degree of compromise. I already owned horns before I moved to my present home, but it has become clear (by trying other types) that horns suit my room and require no unattractive room treatment devices.
In truth, as long as you and I are content with our individual systems, all is good.
We should ask ourselves "What is the best TYPE of speaker for my particular room?"
with the atypical oddly shaped space not to mention all that glass. Are your other rooms that unusual?
I think that consideration of the right "type" of speaker applies to ALL rooms. If there are nasty noise trap corners or other features that need consideration, choosing the right type may make things simpler. Proximity of speakers to the walls behind or beside them may also be an influencing factor of the type of speaker. This particular aspect meant that Martin Logans were uncomfortable in my own room.
To what "types" do you refer?
I thought my earlier posting was pretty clear in describing "types" of speaker! Examples are electrostatic, open baffle, horn, omni-directional, etc.
I agree with the omni distinction but I would group the remainder into dipoles and direct radiators.
Horns are just another flavor of the latter. Dipoles (of all types) need space behind them to breathe.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
nt
I've been looking for the matching front half - so far without success!
Where is your flat, if I may ask? I am curious about places and views, and you have quite a view. Could that be the masts of HMS Victory we see below?
Edits: 01/16/24
I don't know. Not that acoustics should be underestimated of course but let's be real:
1) most wives who already accept big "ugly" speakers and amps in their living room draw the line at acoustic treatments.
2) the purpose of a hi-fi system should be to enjoy ones favorite recordings. This ain't a mastering room. A lot of living rooms sound decent enough (as in "enjoyable enough") for music listening without the need for more than carefully placed furniture, drapes and carpet.
3) personally I think must should be shared, I would hate to sit alone in a dedicated bunker, hence point 1).
In our last home I had my system in the basement. I hardly used it.
This house has system integrated into den off kitchen. I listen every day. Sometimes intently and lots of times while I cook.
Gsquared
In the realm of speaker design you will find many different dispersion philosophies. Some types embrace "narrow" or controlled dispersion, other types feature "wide" or relatively uncontrolled dispersion, etc... Narrow or "controlled dispersion" (typically horns or "waveguide" designs) speakers seek to minimize room reflections and maximize direct sound. Wide dispersion designs seek to utilize a portion of room reflections in order to enhance a sense of spaciousness.But it should be noted that one type of speaker design might be better suited to (what is called) "critical listening", while another type might be better suited to "recreational listening".
In a "critical listening" environment (typically, recording studios, etc...) you don't want too many spurious reflections muddying up the direct sound of the speakers. Instead, you are looking for maximum recording information retrieval, and that means that "soundstaging effects" encoded in the recording are the only ones you really want to hear. A "good recording" with featuring good soundstaging cues will sound appropriately spacious, and a "bad" recording with lousy soundstaging cues will sound appropriately "constricted" (soundstage-wise)...
In "recreational listening" (the kind that many audiophiles in home environments like), "soundstaging effects" (that are not necessarily encoded in the actual recording) might be welcomed. An enhanced sense of spaciousness is sometimes the goal, and there are speaker designs that are better suited than others are at catering to this "recreational" whim. Look at wider dispersion speaker designs for these "added effects" but remember that, with these speaker designs, you need to be prepared to tame EXCESSIVE amounts of reflected sound on occasion.
So you can expect to "tailor" your use of room treatments depending on speaker type, listening style, and room acoustics. Some speaker systems may sound best with little (or no) room treatment, other speaker systems might sound best with more and more varied types of room treatments.
Edits: 01/07/24
I've been using one form or another since the 80s. Since I use dipoles in the main system, diffraction is more important than absorption. Today, I use a mix of DIY bass traps and diffraction about the room. Speaker placement fine tuned using measurements for most linear response in bottom three octaves.
Even use some in the garage to reduce slap echo. Pics in gallery.
I ended up by treating my room pretty extensively - partly because of high reverb levels (room contains a lot of glass), but mostly because it sounds better to me that way.I usually suggest trying to find the optimal speaker/listening seat setup first, before treating the room. The first things to try to get "right" are tonal balance and the ratio of direct to reflected sound that sound best to you. And then, listen to (what seems like!) the "optimal speaker setup" (sans room treatments) for a while in order to let your brain "acclimatize" to the sound of the speaker system as it is. Take notes if you need to...
Once you think you have found the "best" speaker positions and the best listening position, it might then be time to experiment with some basic room treatments.
I would suggest treating the shortest ("first reflection points"") reflection paths from the speakers to your ears all around the room (sidewalls, floor, ceiling) with 2' X 2' squares of wide-band absorption treatments. Then listen once again...
If you think you like what you are hearing, gradually add more squares in the same places. The most important places to add treatment(s) are probably going to be the sidewall reflection locations (unless you are using dipoles), because they are typically closer to the speakers than most other primary reflection points around the room are...
Room corners are another great place to treat with absorption products. Bass traps should go wherever you can fit them (generally, the more the merrier) and/or wherever you hear bass "booming" in the room the most.
When you have properly treated your room, you'll notice better overall clarity of sound, detail information retrieval, etc.., because you will have reduced "comb-filtering" and/or annoyingly high room reverb levels. Bass will sound clearer and smoother, less "boomy".
But the rule is ALWAYS: Listen first. Treat the room sparingly, gradually at first and progress only as listening tests dictate progression.
The last room treatments I would add are diffusion treatments. They are like "the icing on the cake" when used properly. I would recommend wide-band (minimum 5" well depth) diffusion treatments at various points around the room that are farthest away from the speakers and your ears, so that there are no phase issues, and so that there is enough time/space for these diffused reflections to sound truly "diffused" and tonally integrated. This typically means placing most of your diffusion treatments along the back wall (behind you) - or possibly, the front wall and/or the ceiling.
But once again, remember to listen carefully for a few days at each step of the way before adding more room treatments of any kind.
Edits: 01/06/24 01/06/24 01/06/24
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